Arizona removing teachers with "heavily accented" English from some classrooms

[The_Dude 1,142]

ASU also has a theatre-arts department - many of the profs there contract out as 'dialog coaches'. I smell a money making opportunity, if the school districts will pay for it

I don't know that ASU professors would be the best candidates. Some people go to university, and then some people go to ASU.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Well, I wish I could have seen this thread to its inevitable lockdown, but I have a meeting I must attend. Talk to you all on the flip side.

[Peikko 1,575]

The ones I've met. Which is more than a few. And apparently they don't know how to behave in graduate school either, I've heard anecdotes of their exploits and tantrums.

Well, that's ok then. Next time I smell ###### in the classroom, I'll know what to blame.

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

Well, that's ok then. Next time I smell ###### in the classroom, I'll know what to blame.

[Niels Bohr 72]

Oh please!

My professor for Data Structures and Algorithm speaks English with a very heavy accent. Yet, the class average as an 80. We went over dynamic programming, mapping theory, graphing theory, AVL trees, BST Trees, ADT, etc...

If anybody happen to step into MIT and meet many of these engineering professors, you'll see smart people are heavily accented people. (Don't look at me, never been to MIT except for conferences). But, even so, a heavily accented teacher is no different than a native speaker.

[sachinky 465]

While that may be true, it's one thing to already have a command over the language and to listen to professors talk with a heavy accent while taking advanced Math classes at MIT and another thing altogether to be learning English as a second language (presumably) as a young child from teachers who do not speak the language properly. Kids tend to mimic what they hear when picking up on language, and it is imperative that their teachers have a strong grasp on the language that is being taught.

20 year-old MIT students, already fluent in English, aren't going to mimic the way their professors pronounce certain words but a seven year old child certainly will. The opening line of the article mentions this applies to students who are STILL learning English.

I just spent 2 months at a local elementary school substitute-teaching English and trying to undo the damage caused by their regular teachers that have resulted in the students being unable to differentiate between the pronounciations of "this" and "these." Or "live" and "leave."

Edited May 1, 2010 by sachinky

[Darnell 8,478]

Niels - sorry, I'd disagree with you on one point - and that's ORAL PRESENTATION.

[Peikko 1,575]

While that may be true, it's one thing to already have a command over the language and to listen to professors talk with a heavy accent while taking advanced Math classes at MIT and another thing altogether to be learning English as a second language (presumably) as a young child from teachers who do not speak the language properly. Kids tend to mimic what they hear when picking up on language, and it is imperative that their teachers have a strong grasp on the language that is being taught.

20 year-old MIT students, already fluent in English, aren't going to mimic the way their professors pronounce certain words but a seven year old child certainly will. The opening line of the article mentions this applies to students who are STILL learning English.

I just spent 2 months at a local elementary school substitute-teaching English and trying to undo the damage caused by their regular teachers that have resulted in the students being unable to differentiate between the pronounciations of "this" and "these." Or "live" and "leave."

A 'BBC' English advocate? You do know that even the BBC has completely moved away from standardised pronunciation and even (shock horror!) announcers are regularly employed with a wide range or regional accents? No? You a teacher and all.

What's funny is, there are several regions in the UK that have very pronounced accents which incorporate dialect as well, but according to you, these native speakers wouldn't be able to teach English and shouldn't be allowed to teach English. Poppycock. Kids are smart and unless the teacher is incompetent the accent they speak with is irrelevant.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Darnell 8,478]

BBC English? Sorry, didn't see that. Where was it?

[Peikko 1,575]

BBC English? Sorry, didn't see that. Where was it?

When the BBC began they made a huge fuss about elocution and only presenters who could speak with a particular type of 'accentless' voice were hired. Some time back, people with thick, regional accents began to complain that discriminating against people with accents ensured that the BBC, which is meant to be representative of the entire UK was turning inwards and many parts of the country were not properly represented - essentially, unless you came from the South and had a private education you would not get to work for the Beeb on the front line (infront of the mic/camera). The argument was similar, that only this clipped accent could be understood by all. This was quite definitely proved to be #######, hence a much broader representation of regional accents today and a much healthier corporation.

While the poster didn't say it in so many words, that is the gist of her post, that there are 'proper' accents and ones that are not 'proper' and the 'not proper' ones do immeasurable harm to children learning English. #######.

[sachinky 465]

I don't have a problem with accents, given that I speak English with a mostly neutral but Indian tinged accent. What I do have a problem with is incorrect pronunciation and poor grammar. It raises my hackles. I have a problem with English words being butchered. The school I was teaching to essentially had teachers who themselves had learnt English in a Bengali medium school and were unable to form certain words correctly. Not their fault that their "w" or "v" sounds didn't come out correctly. But they are not the ones who should be teaching English to first grade kids. Most of them didn't could explain the difference between "unless" and "until."

I'd rather the kids learn to speak properly than go on some politically-correct campaign allowing everyone to teach English, just because they can carry on a conversation in it. I don't care WHAT region you come from, "very" is NOT "bhery." Oh, and the one that made me want to kill myself -- "were" pronounced the same as "wear." Because the teachers pronounced it as such, so did the kids.

Edited May 1, 2010 by sachinky

[Peikko 1,575]

I don't have a problem with accents, given that I speak English with a mostly neutral but Indian tinged accent. What I do have a problem with is incorrect pronunciation and poor grammar. It raises my hackles. I have a problem with English words being butchered. The school I was teaching to essentially had teachers who themselves had learnt English in a Bengali medium school and were unable to form certain words correctly. Not their fault that their "w" or "v" sounds didn't come out correctly. But they are not the ones who should be teaching English to first grade kids. Most of them didn't could explain the difference between "unless" and "until."

I'd rather the kids learn to speak properly than go on some politically-correct campaign allowing everyone to teach English, just because they can carry on a conversation in it. I don't care WHAT region you come from "very" is NOT "bhery." Oh, and the one that made me want to kill myself --"were" pronounced as "wear." Because the teachers pronounced it as such, so did the kids.

How do you decide what is the 'correct' pronunciation when regional accents necessarily mean that some words are pronounced in ways that make it difficult to distinguish some words from others. People in those situations use other cues, CONTEXT. Your 'speaking properly' is quite simply declaring that only a standardised form of English can be understood by all and should be found in the classroom. Again, back to the BBC and their discovery that this was rubbish because, quite frankly it is.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Darnell 8,478]

Madame Cleo -

Ya, sorry, I dinna read that out of Sachinky's post. I did know what BBC English was, just dinna see direct, named reference to it.

As to the '#######' value of it all - hei ! It's the Arizona Board of Education 'making it official' - Sachinky just gave her direct experience - no 'Arizona involved', only her direct experience.

FWIW, I did the 'dialogue coach' gig on occassion for non-USC professors, on some 'by the hour' or 'bring me jiaoxi' trade. Most of my private students showed marked improvement. I don't speak the Queen's English, not at all, but I have NO Accent (really hard to learn to sing in latin, italien with a Texas Accent - that got dropped ages past)

but I digress.

Seriously, I think __YOU__ made that leap into BBC English, not Sachinky. She was telling her first hand experience. I can understand yer posit about BBC English, but in this little exchange here, IMO it's not fair to assume the same breadth and swath with Sachinky, not at all.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Darnell

[Peikko 1,575]

Oh, and the fact that I have lived in four English speaking regions that had markedly different accents and have a child who has been taught by teachers with these four different accents is irrelevant is it?

[Darnell 8,478]

Oh, and the fact that I have lived in four English speaking regions that had markedly different accents and have a child who has been taught by teachers with these four different accents is irrelevant is it?

I haven't minimalized (sp) yer 'experience' - why are you jumping in this fashion?

Edited May 1, 2010 by Darnell