so what do we do when Obama pushes through the imigration bill

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Just open the borders. Where humans choose to live is a matter of personal choice, an unalienable right, one could say.

Edited May 2, 2010 by ##########

[evli1966 88]

If I am a different country and stopped I would expect to be asked for ID and papers showing that I am legally there.

Just what we don't need here in the U.S....more Big Brother and racial profiling.

Tell me exactly where the racial profiling is..you cant doesnt matter what race you are if your pulled over in a vehicle for legitmate reasons everyone in the vehicle can be asked for ID doesn't matter if your a driver or passenger. (If I am not mistaken that has always been the law)

IMO your opion is that yours and only yours as well; you are only spouting quotes and quips that may come from the minority of the legal citizens of this country if at all.

If you are a legal resident of this country you have a right to speak but do not be offended discoursged or angerd when the majority of the citizens speak out against you we have the same rights and there are more of us voting.

I don't care what color or race you are being here illegally is not acceptable and you need to leave. If you think that sounds to racist that includes the Angelo Saxons from Europe.

You are confusing the issues. It's not a question of who is illegal and needs to leave...it's a question of racial profiling.

You are confusing the statement and what the nature of the law truly is - A white man can be pulled over just as easily as any other person so it is not racial profiling. almost any law can be broken down into pieces so it can be interpreted in different ways.

Please come aagain when you have something better to say.

But We can not sustain the untempered flow of illegal immigrants to this country.

Who is suggesting that there is (or should be) an "untempered" flow of illegal immigrants to this country?

If Obama pardons and give citizenship to the million plus illegals then he sets a precedence for the future.

Is it even possible for Obama to pardon and give citizenship to all of the illegals? Is that issue even on the table? Don't you think Congress has anything to say about it? Please provide a link which shows that Obama has this power...and is considering using it.

Congress does have a say and if you are against that issue you best start speaking out.

You asked for it:

After his speech, Obama will gather lawmakers together over the summer to work on the details of a bill for introduction in the autumn. Cecilia Menoz, deputy assistant to the president, told the New York Times: "He intends to start the debate this year."

Immigration reform comes on top of promises Obama has made – during only 80 days in office – to tackle the recession, the ailing health service, climate change, nuclear proliferation, Guantánamo Bay and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

On the campaign trail, Obama argued it was not realistic to send the 12 million illegal immigrants home. Last month, at a town hall meeting in southern California, he said that "if they stay in the shadows", some employers will exploit them, hurting wages and work conditions for all American workers.

He set out a path for illegal immigrants to become legal citizens: learn English, pay a significant fine and go to the back of the line in applications for citizenship.

This particular link was in April 2009 read the whole thing PARTICULARLY THE LAST PARAGRAPH

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/09/obama-reforms-immigration

As for the Menial jobs such as picking Asparagus: I might not be able to last a day doing it but there sure the hell is someone that is quite able to do the job and they are living here legally.

There is undoubtedly someone here that is "quite able to do the job and they are living here legally." However, the reality of the situation is those that are quite able to do the job and are here legally don't and won't do those jobs.

I agree the lazy SOBs will use this to spout I cant work so give me welfare without the exploited illegals working it would eliminate some of the excuses

This would force the contractors hiring illegal labor under the table to avoid taxes and paying a fare wage to change how business is done.

The only way to stop employers from hiring illegals is serious fines and jail time for employers.

I agrre with what you say here but eliminating the illegal labor pool is also part of this problem.

Per my last statement it isn't necessarily just illegals not paying taxes(some do while using stolen identities) but the employers who hire them under the table.

Many illegals pay taxes...and it has nothing to do with stolen identities.

yes they do it is called state sales tax if your state has it. They can not own property so pay 0 in property tax. They can not pay income taxes or SSN as an illegal unless they are using a stolen SSN (Identitiy Theft in case you are unaware of this)

All this is IMHO

Yup...that's all it is.

Except that mine seems to be much more informed on the true issues at hand than your opinion.

Please read, learn and think prior to making comments only based on emotions.

[Tahoma 2,292]

If I am a different country and stopped I would expect to be asked for ID and papers showing that I am legally there.

Please get your issues straight. We are not talking about U.S. citizens who are traveling in another country. We are talking about American citizens and legal permanent residents of the United States who will be profiled right here in America. See the difference?

Just what we don't need here in the U.S....more Big Brother and racial profiling.

Tell me exactly where the racial profiling is..you cant doesnt matter what race you are if your pulled over in a vehicle for legitmate reasons everyone in the vehicle can be asked for ID doesn't matter if your a driver or passenger. (If I am not mistaken that has always been the law)

From your statement, it's obvious that you don't understand racial profiling. First of all, the police can use any number of reasons to pull you over. Ask any of your family or friends who are cops. This is exactly what happened to a black friend of mine. My friend drives the same route through the city several times a week. He alternates driving his Cadillac and his Ford F-250 pickup truck. He has been stopped by the cops three times in the past two years while he was driving his Caddy, and he has never been stopped while driving his pickup. He has never been issued a traffic ticket because he has never done anything wrong. He simply fit the profile of driving a Caddy while black. If you think this is simply a coincidence, then I have more profiling stories for you.

Secondly, you are mistaken if you think illegals can't get a drivers license or another form of ID...either legally or illegally. If the police stop a car full of people and ask them for their ID...and they show their ID to the police...that's the end of the story. The cops don't check their citizenship nor residency status, and they don't want to. They don't want to be immigration agents.

Soon, driving in Arizona while brown will be a reason for some cops to pull over American citizens and require them to prove citizenship...racial profiling at its worst. Don't you think the cops have better things to do? They certainly do.

IMO your opion is that yours and only yours as well; you are only spouting quotes and quips that may come from the minority of the legal citizens of this country if at all.

If you are a legal resident of this country you have a right to speak but do not be offended discoursged or angerd when the majority of the citizens speak out against you we have the same rights and there are more of us voting.

When a majority of American citizens supported the police beating a confession out of a suspect, I suppose you favored that too because you were in the majority and, therefore, it couldn't be wrong. American history is littered with examples of the majority preventing the minority from exercising their rights. Fortunately, the American system is set up in a manner which eventually allows these wrongs to be righted. In the case of the new Arizona law, I suspect that the Supreme Court of the United States will have a say in it, no matter how the majority feels about it.

I don't care what color or race you are being here illegally is not acceptable and you need to leave. If you think that sounds to racist that includes the Angelo Saxons from Europe.

You are confusing the issues. It's not a question of who is illegal and needs to leave...it's a question of racial profiling.

You are confusing the statement and what the nature of the law truly is - A white man can be pulled over just as easily as any other person so it is not racial profiling. almost any law can be broken down into pieces so it can be interpreted in different ways.

Once again, you have demonstrated that you don't understand the nature of racial profiling. It has nothing to do with how "easily" two people with different skin colors can be pulled over. It has everything to do with who actually gets pulled over and why they are pulled over.

Please come aagain when you have something better to say.

Better than what?

But We can not sustain the untempered flow of illegal immigrants to this country.

Who is suggesting that there is (or should be) an "untempered" flow of illegal immigrants to this country?

If Obama pardons and give citizenship to the million plus illegals then he sets a precedence for the future.

Is it even possible for Obama to pardon and give citizenship to all of the illegals? Is that issue even on the table? Don't you think Congress has anything to say about it? Please provide a link which shows that Obama has this power...and is considering using it.

Congress does have a say and if you are against that issue you best start speaking out.

If Congress "has a say," then why are you suggesting that Obama can do it alone?

You asked for it:

After his speech, Obama will gather lawmakers together over the summer to work on the details of a bill for introduction in the autumn. Cecilia Menoz, deputy assistant to the president, told the New York Times: "He intends to start the debate this year."

Immigration reform comes on top of promises Obama has made – during only 80 days in office – to tackle the recession, the ailing health service, climate change, nuclear proliferation, Guantánamo Bay and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

On the campaign trail, Obama argued it was not realistic to send the 12 million illegal immigrants home. Last month, at a town hall meeting in southern California, he said that "if they stay in the shadows", some employers will exploit them, hurting wages and work conditions for all American workers.

He set out a path for illegal immigrants to become legal citizens: learn English, pay a significant fine and go to the back of the line in applications for citizenship.

This particular link was in April 2009 read the whole thing PARTICULARLY THE LAST PARAGRAPH

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/09/obama-reforms-immigration

Thank you for proving my point for me...or did you even notice? Indeed, Obama can't pardon and grant citizenship to the millions of illegals. Any bill on the matter will have to go through the Congressional meat grinder.

As for the Menial jobs such as picking Asparagus: I might not be able to last a day doing it but there sure the hell is someone that is quite able to do the job and they are living here legally.

There is undoubtedly someone here that is "quite able to do the job and they are living here legally." However, the reality of the situation is those that are quite able to do the job and are here legally don't and won't do those jobs.

I agree the lazy SOBs will use this to spout I cant work so give me welfare without the exploited illegals working it would eliminate some of the excuses

I won't even comment on how ridiculous that statement sounds. I'll let the readers try to find a shred of logic in it for themselves. Did it ever occur to you that if you magically got rid of all the illegals, "the lazy SOBs" still wouldn't work, they don't need any "excuses" for it, and then you wouldn't have any food on your table?

This would force the contractors hiring illegal labor under the table to avoid taxes and paying a fare wage to change how business is done.

The only way to stop employers from hiring illegals is serious fines and jail time for employers.

I agrre with what you say here but eliminating the illegal labor pool is also part of this problem.

The illegals can and will work as long as employers hire them. The only effective way to slow the tide of illegal immigration is to cut off the money supply...and that starts with the employer.

Per my last statement it isn't necessarily just illegals not paying taxes(some do while using stolen identities) but the employers who hire them under the table.

Many illegals pay taxes...and it has nothing to do with stolen identities.

yes they do it is called state sales tax if your state has it. They can not own property so pay 0 in property tax. They can not pay income taxes or SSN as an illegal unless they are using a stolen SSN (Identitiy Theft in case you are unaware of this)

Where do you get this stuff anyway? Just about anyone can buy property in America...you don't have to be an American citizen to buy property in the United States. Many illegals own property. Many buy it themselves, or have a citizen buy it for them. They pay property tax. Many illegals pay income tax and other payroll taxes. Many pay into Social Security and Medicare with no hope of ever receiving benefits. And yes...they pay sales tax and excise tax too. Sheesh...

All this is IMHO

Yup...that's all it is.

Except that mine seems to be much more informed on the true issues at hand than your opinion.

Please read, learn and think prior to making comments only based on emotions.

What's up with your sudden expertise on immigration? You recently admitted on another thread here on VJ that you knew little about immigration. Remember that one? Now you come here in the Philippines forum and start spouting gibberish that comes straight from Rush Limbaugh. You really need to stop using Rush as your only source of information...because it shows.

Organizers...please move this thread to "Off Topic."

[Fudpukker 18]

First there was ABORTION then there was THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION and now there is IMMIGRATIONS, a touchy topic that will never end and just stir up heat.

[Tahoma 2,292]

First there was ABORTION then there was THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION and now there is IMMIGRATIONS, a touchy topic that will never end and just stir up heat.

That is why this thread belongs in Off-Topic.

You would think that the right wing would love illegal immigrants...because the wingnuts are so free-market oriented...and into keeping government off of their backs. After all, don't the illegals keep prices down?

[Fudpukker 18]

That is why this thread belongs in Off-Topic.

You would think that the right wing would love illegal immigrants...because the wingnuts are so free-market oriented...and into keeping government off of their backs. After all, don't the illegals keep prices down?

actually they do keep it down, they do yard work, construction labor like digging a ditch, farm work, dirty and so on......... I think they are the reason why the home prices dont sky rocket.

[evli1966 88]

If we went off topic then it is because you can not accept the fact that the majority of the people in this country do not agree with Obama on this or with Bush when he discussed it. All this fear was due to the Arizona law which was changed Friday.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/30/arizona-governor-signs-revising-new-immigration-law/

I am still not a believer in the racial profiling for this law but it seems you are correct on this one.

Second Tahoma you are indeed wrong about me and your play at spinning topics and statements to call me a right wing conservative is poor at best. I have listened to Rush, Bill, George, Hannity, etc. I am not a proponent of anyone that spins topics to either side ignoring the truth. I AM IN FACT A DEMOCRAT and I am in fact upset that a president of either side would boldly state they will work towards an issue that most of his constituents are against.

Please get your issues straight. We are not talking about U.S. citizens who are traveling in another country. We are talking about American citizens and legal permanent residents of the United States who will be profiled right here in America. See the difference?

Actually the Topic is about Obama legalizing the illegal immigrants you are the one that strayed from the issue I responded to you in kind. The Arizona bill had nothing to do with Obama except that the Arizona citizens are tired of waiting on Washington to act.

If Congress "has a say," then why are you suggesting that Obama can do it alone?

I never said he would do it alone; but you ignorance of how politics works in Washington is unbearable. If not all politicians then most of political interest groups that pull there strings and most of these groups play both parties. If Obama has enough congressman on his side then the political interest groups can and will pressure the others as well. No it doesn't mean it will pass but doesn't the thought scare you?

Thank you for proving my point for me...or did you even notice? Indeed, Obama can't pardon and grant citizenship to the millions of illegals. Any bill on the matter will have to go through the Congressional meat grinder.

Uhm.. lets see what you questioned

Is it even possible for Obama to pardon and give citizenship to all of the illegals? Possible yes it is and you said it yourself it can be done with congress.

Is that issue even on the table? Yes it is! you just read it was.

Don't you think Congress has anything to say about it? Yup they do and they are pulled by political interest groups.

Please provide a link which shows that Obama has this power...and is considering using it. I sent you one link of many and he does have the power of pardons. But since you are still ignorant of how Presidential Pardons work let me help educate you further.

These are quips from this link which will educate you on how Presidential Pardons work.

http://people.howstuffworks.com/presidential-pardon.htm

"The answer is simple. Because he can. President Bush, like every president before him, has the unique ability to override the justice system, release anyone he chooses from paying a fine, and return a person to the state of innocence he had before he ever committed a crime.

The president isn't required to explain or justify his actions to you, me, Congress or anyone else for that matter.The power to pardon is left solely to the discretion of the president, and cannot be reviewed or overturned by any of the other branches of government"

"When dealing with a political tool as powerful as this, debate over its use is guaranteed to arise in the other branches of government. Congress often bites its collective tongue in frustration during pardon season, which tends to come hardest and fastest late in a president's final term. Yet, deep down every Congressman knows that the pardon is untouchable: It would take a constitutional amendment to make any change to the pardon power."

Again please come back once you have educated yourself on how pardons work.

Does it make them a citizen no but it sure opens up other avenues which should not be opened.

I won't even comment on how ridiculous that statement sounds. I'll let the readers try to find a shred of logic in it for themselves. Did it ever occur to you that if you magically got rid of all the illegals, "the lazy SOBs" still wouldn't work, they don't need any "excuses" for it, and then you wouldn't have any food on your table?

Please quit lying to yourself. The people that are lazy can be forced to work if they are deprived of the social welfare system they are so found of. No one would starve and the conglomerates that are running the food production at a discounted cost by using illegal labor would need to pay a fair wage and that would also entice those types of labor workers.

The illegals can and will work as long as employers hire them. The only effective way to slow the tide of illegal immigration is to cut off the money supply...and that starts with the employer.

No argument here except it is only part of the solution.

Where do you get this stuff anyway? Just about anyone can buy property in America...you don't have to be an American citizen to buy property in the United States. Many illegals own property. Many buy it themselves, or have a citizen buy it for them. They pay property tax. Many illegals pay income tax and other payroll taxes. Many pay into Social Security and Medicare with no hope of ever receiving benefits. And yes...they pay sales tax and excise tax too. Sheesh...

I did not know an Illegal immigrant could own property. This is bogus; a legitimate business person of another country wants to legally purchase property then great but to allow people to do while they are living here illegally is just plain dumb. You win this argument on my ignorance of this and at least this time you actually spewed out a factual comment.

Paying into the income tax, SSN and medicare is only done on ID theft whether they pay without receiving benefits or not is still wrong and illegal.

What's up with your sudden expertise on immigration? You recently admitted on another thread here on VJ that you knew little about immigration. Remember that one? Now you come here in the Philippines forum and start spouting gibberish that comes straight from Rush Limbaugh. You really need to stop using Rush as your only source of information...because it shows.

I know little about immigration laws pertaining to k-1 visas and the process to obtain them; big difference. I come here to this forums for the same reasons as most and I responded in kind to a topic that I feel strongly about.

1. You can stop crying know the Arizona law is changed so the racial profiling is out.

2. You need to learn what and how a Presidential Pardon works

3. You need to understand breaking the law is breaking the law; Living in the US illegally; stealing an identity; human slave trade etc.

4. You need to learn how politics truly works

4. You need to learn more tact in your approach in arguing point

5. I learned that the Arizona law is considered Racial Profiling (I still believe it was changed in the interest of beiong politically correct)

6. I learned an illegal immigrant can own property and pay taxes on said property (I would watch carefully in the arena it could be the next blow to illegals if one thing would uproot illegals it would be to take away such a privilege)

Thank you Please have a nice day.

[Fudpukker 18]

If we went off topic then it is because you can not accept the fact that the majority of the people in this country do not agree with Obama on this or with Bush when he discussed it. All this fear was due to the Arizona law which was changed Friday.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/30/arizona-governor-signs-revising-new-immigration-law/

I am still not a believer in the racial profiling for this law but it seems you are correct on this one.

Second Tahoma you are indeed wrong about me and your play at spinning topics and statements to call me a right wing conservative is poor at best. I have listened to Rush, Bill, George, Hannity, etc. I am not a proponent of anyone that spins topics to either side ignoring the truth. I AM IN FACT A DEMOCRAT and I am in fact upset that a president of either side would boldly state they will work towards an issue that most of his constituents are against.

Please get your issues straight. We are not talking about U.S. citizens who are traveling in another country. We are talking about American citizens and legal permanent residents of the United States who will be profiled right here in America. See the difference?

Actually the Topic is about Obama legalizing the illegal immigrants you are the one that strayed from the issue I responded to you in kind. The Arizona bill had nothing to do with Obama except that the Arizona citizens are tired of waiting on Washington to act.

If Congress "has a say," then why are you suggesting that Obama can do it alone?

I never said he would do it alone; but you ignorance of how politics works in Washington is unbearable. If not all politicians then most of political interest groups that pull there strings and most of these groups play both parties. If Obama has enough congressman on his side then the political interest groups can and will pressure the others as well. No it doesn't mean it will pass but doesn't the thought scare you?

Thank you for proving my point for me...or did you even notice? Indeed, Obama can't pardon and grant citizenship to the millions of illegals. Any bill on the matter will have to go through the Congressional meat grinder.

Uhm.. lets see what you questioned

Is it even possible for Obama to pardon and give citizenship to all of the illegals? Possible yes it is and you said it yourself it can be done with congress.

Is that issue even on the table? Yes it is! you just read it was.

Don't you think Congress has anything to say about it? Yup they do and they are pulled by political interest groups.

Please provide a link which shows that Obama has this power...and is considering using it. I sent you one link of many and he does have the power of pardons. But since you are still ignorant of how Presidential Pardons work let me help educate you further.

These are quips from this link which will educate you on how Presidential Pardons work.

http://people.howstuffworks.com/presidential-pardon.htm

"The answer is simple. Because he can. President Bush, like every president before him, has the unique ability to override the justice system, release anyone he chooses from paying a fine, and return a person to the state of innocence he had before he ever committed a crime.

The president isn't required to explain or justify his actions to you, me, Congress or anyone else for that matter.The power to pardon is left solely to the discretion of the president, and cannot be reviewed or overturned by any of the other branches of government"

"When dealing with a political tool as powerful as this, debate over its use is guaranteed to arise in the other branches of government. Congress often bites its collective tongue in frustration during pardon season, which tends to come hardest and fastest late in a president's final term. Yet, deep down every Congressman knows that the pardon is untouchable: It would take a constitutional amendment to make any change to the pardon power."

Again please come back once you have educated yourself on how pardons work.

Does it make them a citizen no but it sure opens up other avenues which should not be opened.

I won't even comment on how ridiculous that statement sounds. I'll let the readers try to find a shred of logic in it for themselves. Did it ever occur to you that if you magically got rid of all the illegals, "the lazy SOBs" still wouldn't work, they don't need any "excuses" for it, and then you wouldn't have any food on your table?

Please quit lying to yourself. The people that are lazy can be forced to work if they are deprived of the social welfare system they are so found of. No one would starve and the conglomerates that are running the food production at a discounted cost by using illegal labor would need to pay a fair wage and that would also entice those types of labor workers.

The illegals can and will work as long as employers hire them. The only effective way to slow the tide of illegal immigration is to cut off the money supply...and that starts with the employer.

No argument here except it is only part of the solution.

Where do you get this stuff anyway? Just about anyone can buy property in America...you don't have to be an American citizen to buy property in the United States. Many illegals own property. Many buy it themselves, or have a citizen buy it for them. They pay property tax. Many illegals pay income tax and other payroll taxes. Many pay into Social Security and Medicare with no hope of ever receiving benefits. And yes...they pay sales tax and excise tax too. Sheesh...

I did not know an Illegal immigrant could own property. This is bogus; a legitimate business person of another country wants to legally purchase property then great but to allow people to do while they are living here illegally is just plain dumb. You win this argument on my ignorance of this and at least this time you actually spewed out a factual comment.

Paying into the income tax, SSN and medicare is only done on ID theft whether they pay without receiving benefits or not is still wrong and illegal.

What's up with your sudden expertise on immigration? You recently admitted on another thread here on VJ that you knew little about immigration. Remember that one? Now you come here in the Philippines forum and start spouting gibberish that comes straight from Rush Limbaugh. You really need to stop using Rush as your only source of information...because it shows.

I know little about immigration laws pertaining to k-1 visas and the process to obtain them; big difference. I come here to this forums for the same reasons as most and I responded in kind to a topic that I feel strongly about.

1. You can stop crying know the Arizona law is changed so the racial profiling is out.

2. You need to learn what and how a Presidential Pardon works

3. You need to understand breaking the law is breaking the law; Living in the US illegally; stealing an identity; human slave trade etc.

4. You need to learn how politics truly works

4. You need to learn more tact in your approach in arguing point

5. I learned that the Arizona law is considered Racial Profiling (I still believe it was changed in the interest of beiong politically correct)

6. I learned an illegal immigrant can own property and pay taxes on said property (I would watch carefully in the arena it could be the next blow to illegals if one thing would uproot illegals it would be to take away such a privilege)

Thank you Please have a nice day.

WOW..............Time to heat up some Popcorn....

[Kevin-n-Merlaine 14]

I'm tellin ya huh teamster?! If we hadn't screwed up our relationship with Mexico years ago this wouldn't be such a hot topic. We only have 2 neighbors on this continent and we should be making sure they're both our closest friends . Just raise the minimum wage to around 15 bucks an hour. The price of a new home or a bunch of cauliflower may go up, but you could afford to buy it too "If we don't raise those around us up to our level, they will drags us down to theirs" - A wise Teamster I know

[charlie&pam 1]

good point!!!!

[evli1966 88]

I'm tellin ya huh teamster?! If we hadn't screwed up our relationship with Mexico years ago this wouldn't be such a hot topic. We only have 2 neighbors on this continent and we should be making sure they're both our closest friends . Just raise the minimum wage to around 15 bucks an hour. The price of a new home or a bunch of cauliflower may go up, but you could afford to buy it too "If we don't raise those around us up to our level, they will drags us down to theirs" - A wise Teamster I know

Some good points in this statement and I agree with most of them; except I am not sure what you mean by "If we hadn't screwed up our relationship with Mexico years ago...".

The issue which both Tahoma and I agree on is that raising the Minimum wage will not deter hiring illegal immigrants but may indirectly encourage it.

The exploited illegal immigrants would continually be exploited. The employers need to be penalized severly for hiring illegals and possibly exploiting them.

I also agree that we should have a stronger relationship with our neighbrs but tell me what exactly Mexico does to help prevent illegals from crossing over to our borders. I understand their laws are strictly written and it is stated to be enforce at all levels of the legal system but as I understand it the corruption level in that government prevents much of it from being enforced or cause more problems for the illegal immigrants.

(BTW please understand I am in no way suggesting that all illegals are either from Mexico or only hispanic..many other illegal immigrants come to Mexico in hopes of crossing the border)

I also believe in helping others legally in our country become better or achieve a standard of living that would be acceptable; not everyone will be rich or middle class but every legal citizen should have a chance to become what they wish.

I do not believe in doing the work for them nor do I beleieve they should be raised to my level or your level of success unless they earn it -> refer to the joke that was stated earlier in the thread. I believe we need to provide them opportunities but they need to do the work. If they need $50 then they should mow the lawn.

It is not for you and I to just give to them general welfare but for them to earn it based on their own potential and capabilities.

I refer you to this statement which holds true to the citizens of these United States.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

I am curious how we as a nation screwed up our relationship with Mexico?

[Kevin-n-Merlaine 14]

I'm really not into a discussion on immigration legislation regarding Mexico, I was mostly into sharing some popcorn with teamster..LOL My ex is Mexican and I grew up in southern Arizona. Her grandparents immigrated here legally, one being Mexican and the other a Spanish and they BOTH hated the "wetbacks" lol. They felt the same as most of us do, do it legally! All I meant was that our government hasn't wanted any sort of immigration reform because their wealthier, large farm owning (Phoenix AGRO)constituency would $hit a chicken. We've screwed up with them because we've never worried about their economy or helped them help themselves. We don't mind completely rebuilding Iraq or Afghanistan (or countless other countries I won't mention) but we haven't done anything to speak of to help Mexico grow. We just worry about "guarding" the border like you'd guard a prison perimeter. We build a wall (what, 12' long or so?), hire boarder guards (one for every 1000 miles or so??) then act appalled when the border states fill up with illegals. Now, after years of doing virtually nothing, we're going to either throw them all out or grant them amnesty. I don't have an answer and I hope they find one that actually fixes the problem. So far though, the fixes I see don't look much like fixes.

Nothing like closing the barn door after the horse has run off.

[Fudpukker 18]

I'm tellin ya huh teamster?! If we hadn't screwed up our relationship with Mexico years ago this wouldn't be such a hot topic. We only have 2 neighbors on this continent and we should be making sure they're both our closest friends . Just raise the minimum wage to around 15 bucks an hour. The price of a new home or a bunch of cauliflower may go up, but you could afford to buy it too "If we don't raise those around us up to our level, they will drags us down to theirs" - A wise Teamster I know

I agree with you BROTHER !!!

[Darnell 8,478]

what to do?

for my 'personal life' - I'm gonna make a new lobby to get the tax code revised, so that any and all expenses incurred with bringing my foreign spouse into the USA is tax-deductible, up to 30,000 usd, a 1 time write off.

from a professional standpoint - i dunno - the dems have clouded this issue of 'immigration' so much - I watched the May Day Celebration on c-span, for NYC, and it appeared that every entity there (Unions, State and Fed Representatives, community organizers, NPO chairmen/women) were for an amnesty program. Even the Union Leaders seemed happy about this. ####### ?

How the h3ll can a Union Leader be happy about an amnesty program? I just don't get that part.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Darnell

[evli1966 88]

"We've screwed up with them because we've never worried about their economy or helped them help themselves. We don't mind completely rebuilding Iraq or Afghanistan (or countless other countries I won't mention) but we haven't done anything to speak of to help Mexico grow. We just worry about "guarding" the border like you'd guard a prison perimeter. We build a wall (what, 12' long or so?), hire boarder guards (one for every 1000 miles or so??) then act appalled when the border states fill up with illegals. Now, after years of doing virtually nothing, we're going to either throw them all out or grant them amnesty. I don't have an answer and I hope they find one that actually fixes the problem. So far though, the fixes I see don't look much like fixes."

Thanks for clarifying; I diffidently see you what your are saying about the border.

In regards to rebuilding Iraq and Afghanistan; I read that the interpretations of the Geneva and Hague Conventions is the premises of our obligation to do so, but honestly I do not read it that way(must be smarter people than me that do)

Mexico is a sovereign country but is full of corruption from the top down. This sucks for the people of this country because as a developing nation (not necessarily a third world country)they still are not seeing the benefits of their country grow even though they are the backbone. To send aid to such a country that is corrupt would be like throwing more money into the void never to be seen again.

"How the h3ll can a Union Leader be happy about an amnesty program? I just don't get that part."

It is about money and strength; if they show support for the amnesty for illegal workers they position themselves to receive large amounts of new members. This has nothing to do with labor locals which the vast majority oppose for obvious reasons (this is only what I have read). If the labor unions position themselves correctly and the Amnesty happens they will gain the power they once had in the 60's-80's as a political interest group.(of course this is how I see what is happening)