Arizonans and The Nation Torn On Immigration Bill

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

All laws have unattended consequences so thats irrelevant unless you can prove that it would be abused on a huge scale. Why do you think it would happen on a huge scale?

How on Earth can anyone *prove* that it will be abused? What do you want me to do - break out a crystal ball?

My opinion, is that it likely will be be abused, for the reasons I have tried to explain to you. Because there is an almost identical historical precedent - that has nothing to do with changing times and everything to do with the creation of an inherent bias in the way the police enforce the law.

I think it will be abused because the amount of work it adds to police departments will necessitate some degree of profiling for it to be effective.

Not to mention the cost aspect - filling the jails with suspected illegal aliens. And how long can they keep them in jail for anyway? Unless they've changed something very drastic - there is a legally proscribed limit to how long you can detain someone without charge.

It's a house of cards that relies on the Federal authorities to operate in an efficient manner. If they are overstretched, they will have to let people go.

Yes arrest quotas already exist but are not directed to specific laws. Your political pressure argument could made for any law that officers enforce. So why single out this one.

Why single it out? Erm perhaps because that is the law we are talking about? Perhaps because illegal immigration is a high profile issue in AZ and this law is national news? Perhaps because this law was handed down by AZ lawmakers who have a lot riding on it's success (or it's perception thereof)?

etc. etc.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

That not much of a argument because many laws in place negatively impact people it shouldn't, the degree in which it would becomes the real question.

So lets say there isn't any significant shift in the proportion of illegal aliens, its one thing to say it wouldn't be effective its another thing to say that certain races will be discriminated against.

Why?

Haven't we seen statistics that suggest that the majority of suspected illegal aliens are from Central/South America? BY loves to wheel them out every chance he gets. Would you agree that this is a widely held belief?

Isn't the OP article about the fears of hispanic USCs feeling that they will be targetted unfairly?

[_Simpson_ 250]

How on Earth can anyone *prove* that it will be abused? What do you want me to do - break out a crystal ball?

My opinion, is that it likely will be be abused, for the reasons I have tried to explain to you. Because there is an almost identical historical precedent - that has nothing to do with changing times and everything to do with the creation of an inherent bias in the way the police enforce the law.

I think it will be abused because the amount of work it adds to police departments will necessitate some degree of profiling for it to be effective.

Not to mention the cost aspect - filling the jails with suspected illegal aliens. And how long can they keep them in jail for anyway? Unless they've changed something very drastic - there is a legally proscribed limit to how long you can detain someone without charge.

It's a house of cards that relies on the Federal authorities to operate in an efficient manner. If they are overstretched, they will have to let people go.

Why single it out? Erm perhaps because that is the law we are talking about? Perhaps because illegal immigration is a high profile issue in AZ and this law is national news? Perhaps because this law was handed down by AZ lawmakers who have a lot riding on it's success (or it's perception thereof)?

etc. etc.

Crystal ball I see what your doing here, even though you knew what my point was you decided to get all semantic on me. Which is proven by your second paragraph. Whats your argument/opinion....happy?

I think your UK argument is weak. That happened twenty years ago and in a different country.

Now your back to the profiling argument, once again when it comes to that issue you must blame the cops. I dont by the whole "I couldnt help my self because of the way the law was written" excuse.

Not having enough jail space will never be a excuse with me to not enforce a just law.

When I asked why you were singling out this law, I was referring to context into which we were speaking. You try to make a argument that this law is not good for the political pressure reason, I point out to you that that could be said for many laws. Under that logic I asked why you would single this law out. Your playing games here.

[_Simpson_ 250]

Why?

Haven't we seen statistics that suggest that the majority of suspected illegal aliens are from Central/South America? BY loves to wheel them out every chance he gets. Would you agree that this is a widely held belief?

Isn't the OP article about the fears of hispanic USCs feeling that they will be targetted unfairly?

Whats does statistics have to do with this? No one is arguing that it wont be mostly Mexicans that are affected by this law in AZ. Those statistics should never be a reason for getting rid of this law. You know AZ is on the Mexican boarder?.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Crystal ball I see what your doing here, even though you knew what my point was you decided to get all semantic on me. Which is proven by your second paragraph. Whats your argument/opinion....happy?

I think your UK argument is weak. That happened twenty years ago and in a different country.

You know nothing about the historical situation I referred to in the UK, and are dismissing it solely on the basis of time and location. Weak? I'd say so - you aren't interested in the event so you just want to dismiss it out of hand because it's inconvenient to your opinion.

That, my friend, is arrogant.

Not having enough jail space will never be a excuse with me to not enforce a just law.

Yeah... It's a "just" law that has USC's worrying about carrying extra ID documents for fear of being hassled.

When I asked why you were singling out this law, I was referring to context into which we were speaking. You try to make a argument that this law is not good for the political pressure reason, I point out to you that that could be said for many laws. Under that logic I asked why you would single this law out. Your playing games here.

The "context into which we were speaking" is the law that forms the background the OP article.

I am singling this law out because it is clearly politically motivated. If you can't see that, then I really don't know what to say to you. The Arizona State legislature has passed this law in part to force the Federal Government to address the issue.

Yes Simpson, lots of other government initiatives that affect policing are similarly politically motivated and put pressure on the police to deliver results and to validate their initiatives. So what? I'm not disagreeing with that - but if you think merely because this is somehow status quo that this shouldn't be taken into account as a reason why this just might not be a great idea, then again... I don't know what to say to you.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

You know nothing about the historical situation I referred to in the UK, and are dismissing it solely on the basis of time and location. Weak? I'd say so - you aren't interested in the event so you just want to dismiss it out of hand because it's inconvenient to your opinion.

That, my friend, is arrogant.

Yeah... It's a "just" law that has USC's worrying about carrying extra ID documents for fear of being hassled.

The "context into which we were speaking" is the law that forms the background the OP article.

I am singling this law out because it is clearly politically motivated. If you can't see that, then I really don't know what to say to you. The Arizona State legislature has passed this law in part to force the Federal Government to address the issue.

Yes Simpson, lots of other government initiatives that affect policing are similarly politically motivated and put pressure on the police to deliver results and to validate their initiatives. So what? I'm not disagreeing with that - but if you think merely because this is somehow status quo that this shouldn't be taken into account as a reason why this just might not be a great idea, then again... I don't know what to say to you.

Having almost picked a flat near St. Pauls, Bristol I can tell you the situation there is still pretty bad.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Whats does statistics have to do with this? No one is arguing that it wont be mostly Mexicans that are affected by this law in AZ. Those statistics should never be a reason for getting rid of this law. You know AZ is on the Mexican boarder?.

If you are going to assume that the majority of illegal aliens are people who are Mexican or who look Mexican, how do you think this is going to filter down to law enforcement?

You might think it's reasonable to make that assumption, but the police can't seen to be making it.

You just proved my point.

[Summer75 16]

I thought police here had this right to ask for ID a long time ago, I didn´t know it was so new. In Spain, police can ask u whenever and wherever they want u to prove your situation there, carrying your ID or passport. They usually wait for "aliens" at metro entrances, bus, train stops, they go to restaurants, cybercafes, on streets, supermarkets, avenues, I mean, they are everywhere. If u don´t have your resident card, they might take u to jail for some hours, if u r clean and u don´t have any police record, they let u go. If u have records, they might send u to a "special immigrant prison" for within 40 days and they can deport u. But laws there are of course different. If u live there for 3 years, illegally, u can apply for your resident card and became legal if u follow the procedures, I am pretty sure it takes 5 years in the UK. There are thousands of people who became legal within 3 or 4 years, and follow Spain laws. Illegal aliens have no that opportunity here. There are lots of people who live here FOREVER illegal. Well each country is different of course.

[Heracles 417]

I am starting to believe Gary that this is a conspiracy.

The plan

1. Bring in as many of the world's poor as you can.
   
2. Downplay their impact and accuse those speaking up again them as being anti-immigrant racist.
   
3. Accuse capitalist of exploiting, underpaying etc - Sure wasn't a problem when they advocated as many as possible enter
   
4. Expect the rest of us to have to raise taxes, cut back our services and to pay for the extra services these guys will rely on.
   
5. Demand amnesty and equal rights; claim they will pay a fine. In reality many are still living bellow the poverty line.
   
6. Grant them amnesty and inevitably citizenship - boosting their voting pool
   
7. Repeat process with the next wave of aliens and continue to accuse the rich white guy of keeping down the minority
   

....

Inevitably the US ends up a second world country with few that are mega rich, a non-existent middle class and the rest being dirt poor. Welcome to Mexico 2.0 - The future United States.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Booyah!

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

I am starting to believe Gary that this is a conspiracy.

The plan

1. Bring in as many of the world's poor as you can.
   
2. Downplay their impact and accuse those speaking up again them as being anti-immigrant racist.
   
3. Accuse capitalist of exploiting, underpaying etc - Sure wasn't a problem when they advocated as many as possible enter
   
4. Expect the rest of us to have to raise taxes, cut back our services and to pay for the extra services these guys will rely on.
   
5. Demand amnesty and equal rights; claim they will pay a fine. In reality many are still living bellow the poverty line.
   
6. Grant them amnesty and inevitably citizenship - boosting their voting pool
   
7. Repeat process with the next wave of aliens and continue to accuse the rich white guy of keeping down the minority
   

....

Inevitably the US ends up a second world country with few that are mega rich, a non-existent middle class and the rest being dirt poor. Welcome to Mexico 2.0 - The future United States.

:thumbs:

[sachinky 465]

This thread is still going strong I see.

Edited April 28, 2010 by sachinky

[sachinky 465]

I have two questions:

1) Why do they keep referring to this bill as the "AZ immigration law?" It's not as if the state of AZ is legislating their own immigration laws! Am I missing something? It seems to be more of an attempt to enforce Federal law already on the books.

2) Why is it so darned difficult to find a balanced article on this issue? You have the "Down with them!" or "Off with their heads!" type pieces and then you have the sob stories that focus on the unique contribution of illegal aliens to America and how hard life is for them. I just read one on CNN about an illegal immigrant who is disabled and a church goer--as if somehow that makes everything alright.

In case you were interested-- http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/26/ofri.immigration.health.care/index.html

[_Simpson_ 250]

If you are going to assume that the majority of illegal aliens are people who are Mexican or who look Mexican, how do you think this is going to filter down to law enforcement?

You might think it's reasonable to make that assumption, but the police can't seen to be making it.

You just proved my point.

Are you kidding? I didnt prove your flawed logic.You dont think its reasonable to make that assumption?

Now your trying to make the argument that cops living in AZ will assume that most illegal aliens will be Mexican causing them to over look the non speaking German man that cant speak English all the while acting nervously.

Once again, the cop must have probable cause! Pike, being brown will not cut it and if the cop discriminates then he/she should be handled in a appropriate manner.

I did address the UK situation you just didn't find my reasons valid.

Edited April 28, 2010 by _Simpson_

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Are you kidding? I didnt prove your flawed logic.You dont think its reasonable to make that assumption?

I don't think its reasonable for the police to make (or be appear to make) that assumption. Whether or not you want to admit it, there is a racial component to the subject of illegal immigration. If you want the police to operate on a basis where assumptions can be made on the balance of probability you run the very real risk of encouraging racial profiling.

Now your trying to make the argument that cops living in AZ will assume that most illegal aliens will be Mexican causing them to over look the non speaking German man that cant speak English all the while acting nervously.

Could. Not "will".

Once again, the cop must have probable cause! Pike, being brown will not cut it and if the cop discriminates then he/she should be handled in a appropriate manner.

If you read the background to the Sus laws in the UK, you will see that the police needed probable cause to stop and search people too. And this wasn't a matter of a few rogue officers.

I did address the UK situation you just didn't find my reasons valid.

Your "analysis" amounted to nothing more than "it was 20 years ago and it's a different country". So no, I don't find your reasons valid, (or convincing).

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

I think "can't speak English" is enough for probably cause, or at least for further inquiry, as people who live in this country are assumed to speak the language of the country they live in.

If I live in in Italy, I'm assumed to speak Italian, if I live in France, I'm assumed to speak French, if I live in Mexico, I'm assumed to speak Spanish, and if I live in the US, I'm assumed to speak English.

So if I was a cop and noticed that somebody can't speak English, I would guess that the person is either:

1) a tourist,

2) a fairly new LPR or lawful non-resident, or perhaps

3) an undocumented immigrant.

Usually, tourists are dressed hidiously and carry a camera, and students are mostly young people who carry books or a laptop. Members of both groups can easily prove that they are legally in the US. If somebody waves down trucks in front of Home Depot, doesn't speak English, and has no ID, I don't see how it would be racial profiling, if cop inquires about such person's immigration status.