Arizonans and The Nation Torn On Immigration Bill

[Peikko 1,575]

Cleo thanks for pointing out that this is visa journey rather than congress. However, some of us on here are interested in having a discussion. Proof of these people are those who can agree on one thing but disagree on another. One does have to wonder why certain people camp out in OT but have no legitimate interest in a discussion.

Clearly you think wondering why strangers do the things they do is important. I don't. I don't every wonder why you post on message boards, or what you should be doing instead that would be a more legitimate or better use of your time. I don't care what motivates people I have never met and probably never will to post on message boards. I read whatever I feel like reading, and respond or not dependent on whether I am interested in a topic or not. I do not demand or expect attention or respect because of my academic achievements or income level nor do I give it to others based on those criteria. If someone wishes to read and respond to the things that I post, great. If not, guess what? I don't give it another thought. This is just something I like to do, and I get out of it what I want to get out of it, no more, no less and your opinion has no bearing on that whatsoever.

[Peikko 1,575]

Actually, Africa would agree with this sentiment of his surprisingly enough.... There's far more to 'people' than just their skin color along the lines of genetics. This is not to say that everyone is like this, that's absurd to say this. It is pretty easy to assume that a certain group is more likely to be drawn to certain behavioral actions for whatever reason though...

Ask those border town in Arizona, Texas, and California the ####### they have to deal with and where their money is going... You might be surprised...

Little brats need to be beaten the hell out of. They're annoying and a lot of parents today are useless. It's not really their fault though, society is to blame for CPS overstepping and acting like dipshits now days.

Exactly why you and BY get on so well. Your thought processes are remarkably similar and equally wrong.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The difference between our debating or discussion styles is that if I disagree with someone else, I at least propose what I think is the better approach. I certainly don't spend the majority of time only criticizing the other person's opinion.

You haven't proposed anything. All you've done is jump on a bandwagon endorsing this law because you cannot think beyond your own emotional response to the underlying issue. As Cleo said: anyone would think that you came up with this law all by yourself!

Neither Cleo or yourself has actually said what you feel America should do to take this huge problem for them. Cleo has touched a temp visa or amnesty but we are referring to what they should be done to get rid of the illegals. Until people have better alternatives of their own, Arizona's and that used by NoVA should stand period. In this economy and financial state of the country, amnesty or temp work visa are not an option. Therefore, tell us what you proposes they to to send them back; without any possibility of discrimination.

What a load of smelly old ####### that is. In effect, you are saying that it doesn't matter whether an idea is intrinsically good or bad, but that it should stand in the absence of any other suggestion. And not only that you are suggesting that its up to people on message boards to supply these ideas, because unless they do they cannot have any sort of legitimate criticism of a proposal. Amazing!

[Peikko 1,575]

The difference between our debating or discussion styles is that if I disagree with someone else, I at least propose what I think is the better approach. I certainly don't spend the majority of time only criticizing the other person's opinion.

Neither Cleo nor yourself has actually said what you feel America should do to tackle this huge problem negatively affecting for the country. Cleo has touched a temp visa or amnesty but that is off-topic as we are referring to what should be done to rid the country of the illegals. Until people have better alternatives of their own, Arizona's and that used by NoVA should stand period. In this economy and financial state of the country, amnesty or temp work visa are not an option. Therefore, tell us what you proposes they do to send them back; without any possibility of discrimination.

A temp visa is not off topic and for the most part I don't support automatic citizenship for illegal aliens who have lived here for x years. A visa program for migrant workers is a much better option.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Exactly why you and BY get on so well. Your thought processes are remarkably similar and equally wrong.

and you still refuse to debate and say people are just 'wrong.'

[Heracles 417]

It's not a question of turning blind eyes to illegals or not, it's producing good law to tackle problems or endorsing bad law just because you feel good about 'something being done'. I am not suprised to see you fall into this belief because you have a very simplistic view. You see high crime rates in inner city areas that are often heavily populated by black people and you conclude that black culture breeds criminals. You see border states with fiscal problems and you conclude that it's all the fault of illegal aliens, hispanic ones at that. You see unruly kids and you conclude that all parents are useless and corporal punishment will set everyone straight. Hilarious.

No, it's you who ignores the reality and impact of culture. You act as if it just has to do with socioeconomics, yet to this day I am waiting on one study that illustrates people of similar socioeconomics behave the same way, have similar crime rates, in other countries. To deny that inner city AA culture does not breed and encourage crime is honestly laughable. Anyone who does not see that Australians committing 96% less homicides (per capita) than AA warrants a Houston we have a problem is in denial.

As stated in the other thread about Chicago, a city of 2,853,114 has had 113 murders so far yet a country of 22,000,000 had 255 murders in total for an entire year. Socioeconomics my azz, as also pointed out by A.J of all people, we already spend more per student in various cities on these demographics than everyone else but they still commit crime on a level akin to those in third world countries. Once again, 96% bloody percent more homicides committed. How can anyone justify a culture which clearly has no regard for the law or human life? Thus the no-snitch rule.

Exactly why you and BY get on so well. Your thought processes are remarkably similar and equally wrong.

You gotta love Cleo. She means well but is just so ignorant of reality.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

No, it's you who ignores the reality and impact of culture. You act as if it just has to do with socioeconomics, yet to this day I am waiting on one study that illustrates people of similar socioeconomics behave the same way, have similar crime rates, in other countries. To deny that inner city AA culture does not breed and encourage crime is honestly laughable. Anyone who does not see that Australians committing 96% less homicides (per capita) than AA warrants a Houston we have a problem is in denial.

As stated in the other thread about Chicago, a city of 2,853,114 has had 113 murders so far yet a country of 22,000,000 had 255 murders in total for an entire year. Socioeconomics my azz, as also pointed out by A.J of all people, we already spend more per student in various cities on these demographics than everyone else but they still commit crime on a level akin to those in third world countries. Once again, 96% bloody percent more homicides committed. How can anyone justify a culture which clearly has no regard for the law or human life? Thus the no-snitch rule.

We know about the statistics BY, what I and others dispute are your half-arsed interpretation of them.

What I find chilling is the suggestion that you have made on numerous occasions that because of those statistics that all blacks and all hispanics should have their civil and constitutional rights curtailed.

At least it would be chilling if you actually had some political power behind you, rather than being just some ignorant loudmouth on the internet

Edited April 27, 2010 by Its a MADHOUSE

[Heracles 417]

What a load of smelly old ####### that is. In effect, you are saying that it doesn't matter whether an idea is intrinsically good or bad, but that it should stand in the absence of any other suggestion. And not only that you are suggesting that its up to people on message boards to supply these ideas, because unless they do they cannot have any sort of legitimate criticism of a proposal. Amazing!

Evidently being asked to have your own proposal rather than merely scrutinizing others is a bizarre concept to you. As with any such discussion, clearly to yourself a group of illegal aliens larger in numbers than the population of 173 countries is 'not a big deal'.

After all, Cleo herself clearly insinuated open border immigration has worked well in the UK and only those with nationalist views speak up against it. Furthermore, when someone attempts to put numbers on paper, much like Steven, you guys don't want to hear it.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Booyah!

[_Simpson_ 250]

No, I do not believe that this has anything to do with the quality of the police or their hiring procedures. Rather I believe that this law puts too much power in the hands of individual officers, with no reasonable set of guidelines with which to reasonably apply it practically and in a fair manner. I am not saying that all, or most police are racist, I am saying that this law creates a bias in the decision making process which will lead to accusations of institutional racism.

I am saying this because similar laws were put in place in Britain in the early 80s and created just this exact outcome. The result were a series of notorious race riots.

You said that the law creates a bias,so then its not the officers fault that he targets somebody unjustly because the law made him do it. Plain and simple its the cops you dont trust, no need to use the bill as a scapegoat. The guidelines are similar to most of the guidelines police have to follow when enforcing the law.

As far as the riots that happened 20+ years ago, to me it doesn't matter if the law is just. One shouldn't be controlled by fear. Also its was 20yrs ago and we are living in different times.

[Peikko 1,575]

Oh good grief BY, these things are complex. What one has to work out is are the economic benefits of being in the European Union, that includes the freedom of movement for all within the EU positive or negative, not whether Joe the UK plumber has to renegotiate his business plan because he has greater levels of competition.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Heracles 417]

We know about the statistics BY, what I and others dispute are your half-arsed interpretation of them.

What I find chilling is the suggestion that you have made on numerous occasions that because of those statistics that all blacks and all hispanics should have their civil and constitutional rights curtailed.

At least it would be chilling if you actually had some political power behind you, rather than being just some ignorant loudmouth on the internet

Ah yeah forgot about that excuse. 50% of gang bangers being Hispanic means diddly-squat. A 96% less murders committed when the two are compared means diddly-squat. 80% of Hispanics hogging the US immigration system means diddly-squat. A city like Chicago having a homicide rate akin to an active war zone means diddly-squat.

Please, your excuses get more and more ridiculous by the day.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Booyah!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Evidently being asked to have your own proposal rather than merely scrutinizing others is a bizarre concept to you. As with any such discussion, clearly to yourself a group of illegal aliens larger in numbers than the population of 173 countries is 'not a big deal'.

Clearly if I believed that illegal immigration is not a "big deal" I would have said something to convey that impression.

As it is, all I have done is explain why I believe that this AZ State law is a bad idea.

After all, Cleo herself clearly insinuated open border immigration has worked well in the UK and only those with nationalist views speak up against it. Furthermore, when someone attempts to put numbers on paper, much like Steven, you guys don't want to hear it.

I don't trust your reading comprehension, BY. You've already claimed that I not only do I think that illegal immigration is no "big deal", you have also suggested that I actively advocate illegal immigration.

I do no such things, nor do I hold any such opinion - which leads me to conclude that you have pulled these claims out of the darkest part of your anatomy.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Because the cop had no idea if either an international driver permit or a license from another country was valid in Arizona (both are, by the way). I used the example of California in my previous post because many people seem to assume that an IDP is automatically valid everywhere.

I think you figured out the problem on your own. This cop was obviously not very bright. Most cops are not really "highly trained" in anything, and they certainly don't give them training in geography or geo-politics. Cops make mistakes all the time. I recently had an ordeal with the traffic court in the city where I live because my daughter was pulled over and given a ticket, but the cop cited the wrong section of the vehicle code on the ticket which held the vehicle owner responsible instead of the driver. I had to appear before the traffic court judge to get it straightened out. It's unfortunate that the cop screwed up. At the same time, it's fortunate that the cop isn't the one who determines innocence or guilt. They leave that up to judges, who really ARE highly trained.

Computer systems operate 24 hours, and that is how police always check out someone's documents. There's no risk of them losing face in front of anybody. They'll do what they always do - ask you to wait while they go back to their car to run the checks on their computer. I'll bet that, in most cases, if they run an immigration check you'll never know they did it.

Do the police have the same database available to COs at POE in their squad cars? Does someone back at the station have it? Because if not (and I am not so sure) there there is a wide margin for error and misunderstanding, which will could trip up everyone, legal/illegal/USC. If various cop can't understand vehicle code which every licensed driver studies at one point and is tested on how will they absorb all the nuances of immigration law? Will they be receiving training from the State of Arizona?

If you are one of those people who are unfortunate enough to have problems with AOS, like we were, because apparently USCIS's relationship with law enforcement is so strong it only took them 8 months to complete FBI checks, and only have an NOA1 to prove your legal status there is potential for problems. People every day on VJ who are legally entitled to drivers licenses and social security cards have to fight with the system to get them because, believe it or not, not every government employee is as well versed as VJ posters as to what documents prove you have legal status in this country. I personally would not like to see people on this board living in AZ post on here that they spent the night in jail/were harassed/had to go down the station because the police are also lacking of this knowledge.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You said that the law creates a bias,so then its not the officers fault that he targets somebody unjustly because the law made him do it. Plain and simple its the cops you dont trust, no need to use the bill as a scapegoat. The guidelines are similar to most of the guidelines police have to follow when enforcing the law.

As far as the riots that happened 20+ years ago, to me it doesn't matter if the law is just. One shouldn't be controlled by fear. Also its was 20yrs ago and we are living in different times.

Times change, but people don't. And saying it again isn't going to make it stick. I have no problem with the police performing their duty. I have a huge problem with arbitrary laws that get handed down by grandstanding politicians with no idea of the practicality and of the poor ####### on the street making it work.

This isn't a question of trust - it's a question of a policy that encourages discrimination because that is the only way this law can be applied in a practical and expedient way. I do not believe that the majority of police officers go out onto the streets with racism in their hearts, but if they are required to enforce this law in an efficient way (and are also under pressure to report statistics as to its effectiveness - as is the case with a lot of other political mandates that affect the way they do their job), it is going to encourage if not explicit discrimination, then certainly the perception of it.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Its a MADHOUSE

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Do the police have the same database available to COs at POE in their squad cars? Does someone back at the station have it? Because if not (and I am not so sure) there there is a wide margin for error and misunderstanding, which will could trip up everyone, legal/illegal/USC. If various cop can't understand vehicle code which every licensed driver studies at one point and is tested on how will they absorb all the nuances of immigration law? Will they be receiving training from the State of Arizona?

If you are one of those people who are unfortunate enough to have problems with AOS, like we were, because apparently USCIS's relationship with law enforcement is so strong it only took them 8 months to complete FBI checks, and only have an NOA1 to prove your legal status there is potential for problems. People every day on VJ who are legally entitled to drivers licenses and social security cards have to fight with the system to get them because, believe it or not, not every government employee is as well versed as VJ posters as to what documents prove you have legal status in this country. I personally would not like to see people on this board living in AZ post on here that they spent the night in jail/were harassed/had to go down the station because the police are also lacking of this knowledge.

The way the law is written it appears that the police can make no decisions about someone's status unless there is a confession to being illegal. Otherwise, the police will detain the person in whatever location contact was made until they hear from Federal authorities or Federal authorities arrive at the scene.