Arizonans and The Nation Torn On Immigration Bill

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

America has a serious issue with illegal aliens, therefore, requires a drastic workable approach. Beating around the bush and using the 'but but but you will target innocent people' rhetoric has only worsened the problem. Evidently people in bordering states like AZ have had enough. Mexico drags illegals kicking and screaming out of their country yet these same people have an issue with a simple show me your status check.

That's your opinion. Clearly it isn't the opinion of a lot of other people - hence the demonstrations.

[The_Dude 1,142]

Thank you Captain obvious but that is not what the law would cause. That is what you claim it will cause. It's quite simply really. Someone commits and crime or the police have probably cause. As part of the usual questioning, this person is asked to produce id to verify status. If someone is hired or attempts to use a government service, they are asked to produce ID to verify status.

PS Have you moved to Germany yet?

Thank you captain oblivious. That is exactly what this law will cause. Anyone who is from, or whos ancestors are from any country south of the United States will be targeted by this law, whether fairly or unfairly. I have a cousin from Spain, who has lived here for 10 years, however, his english is rather suspect. He is a citizen, but would be subject to this law if he were driving through Arizona. He is a U.S. citizen, but because of the way he looks, and his inferior language skills, would be subject to arrest. That is not a one in a million example.

[PhiLandShiR 18]

The meat of the issue, BY, is how to enforce immigration law in a manner which is fair and which doesn't infringe the rights of law abiding citizens and lawful immigrants. But when you believe that the ends justify the means, fairness is the first casualty.

Really, it isn't that difficult to understand.

You are correct... but you seem to have an incredibly hard time understanding it... At no time does this law condone walking up to someone and demanding ID. Its only after the police have found probable cause that they can ask anyone for anything...

[Ali G. 37]

What it comes do to it is that Americans have had enough and want to stop illegal aliens from literally walking all over their country.

[SMOKE 1,426]

Thank you captain oblivious. That is exactly what this law will cause. Anyone who is from, or whos ancestors are from any country south of the United States will be targeted by this law, whether fairly or unfairly. I have a cousin from Spain, who has lived here for 10 years, however, his english is rather suspect. He is a citizen, but would be subject to this law if he were driving through Arizona. He is a U.S. citizen, but because of the way he looks, and his inferior language skills, would be subject to arrest. That is not a one in a million example.

he has ID to prove it too...RIGHT?

Edited April 26, 2010 by SMOKE

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

But these illegal aliens are NOT Americans and such those principles and rights don't apply to them, does it? They've broken the law and now you want to extend the privileges/rights of the same country's law they have so blatantly violated without any regard whatsoever?

If the phrase is "human rights" then surely they ought to apply to everyone unless you are suggesting that there is a lower class of people who don't deserve them, but that is hardly politic.

Should a USC who is arrested for a crime be treated differently to an illegal immigrant? Can the police, for example, legally beat the $hit out of someone in the cells because the person doesn't hold legal status and therefore deserves to be treated like an animal? The short answer to that is "no".

[jimnlena 8]

So asking for an identification document is now a human rights violation?

Is if your undocumented!

[Ali G. 37]

Thank you captain oblivious. That is exactly what this law will cause. Anyone who is from, or whos ancestors are from any country south of the United States will be targeted by this law, whether fairly or unfairly. I have a cousin from Spain, who has lived here for 10 years, however, his english is rather suspect. He is a citizen, but would be subject to this law if he were driving through Arizona. He is a U.S. citizen, but because of the way he looks, and his inferior language skills, would be subject to arrest. That is not a one in a million example.

Rubbish. If he is pulled over with probably cause during the normal course of police work, as part of the process, a simple 5 second check will prove he is a citizen or resident.

It's utter disingenuous horseshit that he will be stopped at some imaginary check point and asked for his ID and status.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Ali G.

[PhiLandShiR 18]

Thank you captain oblivious. That is exactly what this law will cause. Anyone who is from, or whos ancestors are from any country south of the United States will be targeted by this law, whether fairly or unfairly. I have a cousin from Spain, who has lived here for 10 years, however, his english is rather suspect. He is a citizen, but would be subject to this law if he were driving through Arizona. He is a U.S. citizen, but because of the way he looks, and his inferior language skills, would be subject to arrest. That is not a one in a million example.

That is exactly what you think will happen. Not what may happen...

Just so you know, anyone who is stopped for probable cause can be subject to arrest.

Edited April 26, 2010 by PhiLandShiR

[Dan J 277]

valid ID(government issued), of which you could not get (can not already in many states now)w/o proving valid status or citizenship.

A citizen is not required to carry any ID, except while driving as a licence to drive, not of citizenship status. Even then if you dont have it on you, you are likely not going to get arrested, but you might get cited. So you think its OK to arrest a Citzen for not providing an ID?

Edited April 26, 2010 by Dan + Gemvita

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You are correct... but you seem to have an incredibly hard time understanding it... At no time does this law condone walking up to someone and demanding ID. Its only after the police have found probable cause that they can ask anyone for anything...

I didn't say anything about "probable cause", but now that you mention it it isn't as clear cut as is being made out.

Does the officer ask everyone he stops/arrests for proof of legal status? If he does then he's adding a lot to his and the departments workload and red tape (at a time when a lot of people are concerned that the police are doing more paperwork and less actual policing). If he only asks that question of the people he suspects of being illegal (hispanic looking people, for example) it opens the police department up to accusations of institutional racism.

[pedroh 21]

But these illegal aliens are NOT Americans and such those principles and rights don't apply to them, does it? They've broken the law and now you want to extend the privileges/rights of the same country's law they have so blatantly violated without any regard whatsoever?

What I think will happen is that if this law does get enforced, illegal aliens will start moving out of Arizona into the neighboring states and then those states will also enforce these strict draconian measures.

There's a reason things have gotten to this point and that is because illegal immigration is such a big problem in the U.S. and needs these drastic measures.

Being politically correct isn't going to solve real-world problems.

it's easy to say being PC isn't going to solve problems, when you're not gonna be affected by it..

as Rob and Mel was saying. If you know the demographic history of the border states, Mexican heritage people have lived there for centuries, way before the US made Az part of them, there was never a 'speak english' plan to make everyone bilingual, there are literally hundreds of families that for generations have only spoken spanish, who live in towns that only speak spanish, and have mexican customs. Blame them? why? they arrived first, and they were never told to do otherwise. They would be the perfect targets for this law, in which probable cause becomes a bologna sandwich, and anyone having a bad day can abuse it

[SMOKE 1,426]

A citizen is not required to carry any ID, except while driving as a licence to drive, not of citizenship status. Even then if you dont have it on you, you are likely not going to get arrested, but you might get cited. So you think its OK to arrest a Citzen for not providing an ID?

in many states they are required to carry at all times. again, if its the law & you choose not to carry it. it your dumbass fault. yes its OK.

[Ali G. 37]

If the phrase is "human rights" then surely they ought to apply to everyone unless you are suggesting that there is a lower class of people who don't deserve them, but that is hardly politic.

Should a USC who is arrested for a crime be treated differently to an illegal immigrant? Can the police, for example, legally beat the $hit out of someone in the cells because the person doesn't hold legal status and therefore deserves to be treated like an animal? The short answer to that is "no".

Yes what a human rights violation to ask some for status to use a government service or when they are arrested. Oh wait, it's the same ###### deal in your mother country. Even Aussies have to wait weeks on end to open up a bloody bank account there, ensuring status eligibility.

[Peikko 1,575]

A citizen is not required to carry any ID, except while driving as a licence to drive, not of citizenship status. Even then if you dont have it on you, you are likely not going to get arrested, but you might get cited. So you think its OK to arrest a Citzen for not providing an ID?

Of course they do - anything is worth it to get those bloody illegals - even reducing civil liberties for those who 'look foreign' legally present in the US or not.