Swine Flu: What the Hell Happened?

[besaangel 18]

All of the shots in my area were given away for free... where is this fat profit you speak of....

No one in my area died BECAUSE of the vaccine... Your article shows only 4 people and none of them in the US...

Nice take, like your area is a good representation of the nation? Would you like me to dig up U.S., Germany and Sweden's take on the vaccine and how Europe pretty labelled it as garbage lol. Gosh, did we even take a look at the ingredients in the vaccine?

We honestly cant believe everything the government says can we? Like how AIDS came from a monkey lol

Edited April 28, 2010 by besaangel

[ScottThuy 140]

PBS actually has an episode of Frontline on right now about this very topic... "The vaccine war"

[PhiLandShiR 18]

Would you like me to dig up Germany and Sweden's take on the vaccine and how they pretty labelled it as garbage lol. Gosh, did we even take a look at the ingredients in the vaccine?

We honestly cant believe everything the government says can we? Like how AIDS came from a monkey lol

So.... AIDS was a government plot aimed at gays??? Made in some lab somewhere with the intent to wipe out an entire section of the population???

As far as what Germany or Sweden think... I don't give a damn what they think...

"Four H1N1 vaccine deaths -- that's swine flu vaccine deaths, for those not in tune with the changes in nomenclature - are said to have befallen patients in Sweden. The Local reports that two elderly patients recently died a few days after receiving the swine flu vaccine.

No medical report that blames the vaccine just fear tactics.

Deaths reported earlier had already causes sufficient stir in the country to prompt a thorough investigation.

The latest reported H1N1 vaccine deaths affected a 74 year old heart and lung disease patient as well as a 90 year old patient with an undisclosed health status. The earlier deaths connected to the swine flu affected a female patient of undisclosed age with a history of muscle disease and a 50 year old man with a heart condition. It is neither proven nor disproven that the deaths are due to the swine flu vaccine."

Nothing here to prove anything at all. These people all had serious medical problems and were high risk patients.

Edited April 28, 2010 by PhiLandShiR

[besaangel 18]

PBS actually has an episode of Frontline on right now about this very topic... "The vaccine war"

You totally rock lol

I had to do a paper on it for my Pathophysiology class- very informative and intense... Its amazing to see the ####### we get fed and accept it without question.

[besaangel 18]

So.... AIDS was a government plot aimed at gays??? Made in some lab somewhere with the intent to wipe out an entire section of the population???

PLLLllleeeeeessseeeeee.......

As far as what Germany or Sweden think... I don't give a damn what they think...

"Four H1N1 vaccine deaths -- that's swine flu vaccine deaths, for those not in tune with the changes in nomenclature - are said to have befallen patients in Sweden. The Local reports that two elderly patients recently died a few days after receiving the swine flu vaccine.

No medical report that blames the vaccine just fear tactics.

Deaths reported earlier had already causes sufficient stir in the country to prompt a thorough investigation.

The latest reported H1N1 vaccine deaths affected a 74 year old heart and lung disease patient as well as a 90 year old patient with an undisclosed health status. The earlier deaths connected to the swine flu affected a female patient of undisclosed age with a history of muscle disease and a 50 year old man with a heart condition. It is neither proven nor disproven that the deaths are due to the swine flu vaccine."

Nothing here to prove anything at all. These people all had serious medical problems and were high risk patients.

Ooooh the ignorance lol. What really makes sense? A disease that magically appeared in a primate or something conjured up by the same H1N1 freaks? Ugh, we're still thinking about the whole "gay related" disease that the very media told us. Yep, we can definately think for ourselves. Let me think about this lol.

[PhiLandShiR 18]

Ooooh the ignorance lol. What really makes sense? A disease that magically appeared in a primate or something conjured up by the same H1N1 freaks? Ugh, we're still thinking about the whole "gay related" disease that the very media told us. Yep, we can definately think for ourselves. Let me think about this lol.

SIGH....

So did HIV come from an SIV?

It is now generally accepted that HIV is a descendant of a Simian Immunodeficiency Virus because certain strains of SIVs bear a very close resemblance to HIV-1 and HIV-2, the two types of HIV.

HIV-2 for example corresponds to SIVsm, a strain of the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus found in the sooty mangabey (also known as the White-collared monkey), which is indigenous to western Africa.

The more virulent, pandemic strain of HIV, namely HIV-1, was until recently more difficult to place. Until 1999, the closest counterpart that had been identified was SIVcpz, the SIV found in chimpanzees. However, this virus still had certain significant differences from HIV.

What happened in 1999?

In February 1999 a group of researchers from the University of Alabama1 announced that they had found a type of SIVcpz that was almost identical to HIV-1. This particular strain was identified in a frozen sample taken from a captive member of the sub-group of chimpanzees known as Pan troglodytes troglodytes (P. t. troglodytes), which were once common in west-central Africa.

The researchers (led by Paul Sharp of Nottingham University and Beatrice Hahn of the University of Alabama) made the discovery during the course of a 10-year long study into the origins of the virus. They claimed that this sample proved that chimpanzees were the source of HIV-1, and that the virus had at some point crossed species from chimps to humans.

Their final findings were published two years later in Nature magazine2. In this article, they concluded that wild chimps had been infected simultaneously with two different simian immunodeficiency viruses which had "viral sex" to form a third virus that could be passed on to other chimps and, more significantly, was capable of infecting humans and causing AIDS.

These two different viruses were traced back to a SIV that infected red-capped mangabeys and one found in greater spot-nosed monkeys. They believe that the hybridisation took place inside chimps that had become infected with both strains of SIV after they hunted and killed the two smaller species of monkey.

They also concluded that all three 'groups' of HIV-1 - namely Group M, N and O (see our strains and subtypes page for more information on these) - came from the SIV found in P. t. troglodytes, and that each group represented a separate crossover 'event' from chimps to humans.

How could HIV have crossed species?

It has been known for a long time that certain viruses can pass between species. Indeed, the very fact that chimpanzees obtained SIV from two other species of primate shows just how easily this crossover can occur. As animals ourselves, we are just as susceptible. When a viral transfer between animals and humans takes place, it is known as zoonosis.

Below are some of the most common theories about how this 'zoonosis' took place, and how SIV became HIV in humans:

The 'Hunter' Theory

The most commonly accepted theory is that of the 'hunter'. In this scenario, SIVcpz was transferred to humans as a result of chimps being killed and eaten or their blood getting into cuts or wounds on the hunter. Normally the hunter's body would have fought off SIV, but on a few occasions it adapted itself within its new human host and become HIV-1. The fact that there were several different early strains of HIV, each with a slightly different genetic make-up (the most common of which was HIV-1 group M), would support this theory: every time it passed from a chimpanzee to a man, it would have developed in a slightly different way within his body, and thus produced a slightly different strain.

An article published in The Lancet in 20043, also shows how retroviral transfer from primates to hunters is still occurring even today. In a sample of 1099 individuals in Cameroon , they discovered ten (1%) were infected with SFV (Simian Foamy Virus), an illness which, like SIV, was previously thought only to infect primates. All these infections were believed to have been acquired through the butchering and consumption of monkey and ape meat. Discoveries such as this have led to calls for an outright ban on bushmeat hunting to prevent simian viruses being passed to humans.

The Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) theory

Some other rather controversial theories have contended that HIV was transferred iatrogenically (i.e. via medical interventions). One particularly well-publicised idea is that polio vaccines played a role in the transfer.

In his book, The River, the journalist Edward Hooper suggests that HIV can be traced to the testing of an oral polio vaccine called Chat, given to about a million people in the Belgian Congo, Ruanda and Urundi in the late 1950s. To be reproduced, live polio vaccine needs to be cultivated in living tissue, and Hooper's belief is that Chat was grown in kidney cells taken from local chimps infected with SIVcmz. This, he claims, would have resulted in the contamination of the vaccine with chimp SIV, and a large number of people subsequently becoming infected with HIV-1.

Many people have contested Hooper's theories and insist that local chimps were not infected with a strain of SIVcmz that is closely linked to HIV. Furthermore, the oral administration of the vaccine would seem insufficient to cause infection in most people (SIV/HIV needs to get directly into the bloodstream to cause infection - the lining of the mouth and throat generally act as good barriers to the virus).4

In February 2000 the Wistar Institute in Philadelphia (one of the original manufacturers of the Chat vaccine) announced that it had discovered in its stores a phial of polio vaccine that had been used as part of the program. The vaccine was subsequently analysed and in April 2001 it was announced that no trace had been found of either HIV or chimpanzee SIV.5 A second analysis confirmed that only macaque monkey kidney cells, which cannot be infected with SIV or HIV, were used to make Chat.6 While this is just one phial of many, it means that the OPV theory remains unproven.

The fact that the OPV theory accounts for just one (group M) of several different groups of HIV also suggests that transferral must have happened in other ways too, as does the fact that HIV seems to have existed in humans before the vaccine trials were ever carried out. More about when HIV came into being can be found below.

The Contaminated Needle Theory

This is an extension of the original 'hunter' theory. In the 1950s, the use of disposable plastic syringes became commonplace around the world as a cheap, sterile way to administer medicines. However, to African healthcare professionals working on inoculation and other medical programmes, the huge quantities of syringes needed would have been very costly. It is therefore likely that one single syringe would have been used to inject multiple patients without any sterilisation in between. This would rapidly have transferred any viral particles (within a hunter's blood for example) from one person to another, creating huge potential for the virus to mutate and replicate in each new individual it entered, even if the SIV within the original person infected had not yet converted to HIV.

The Colonialism Theory

The colonialism or 'Heart of Darkness' theory, is one of the more recent theories to have entered into the debate. It is again based on the basic 'hunter' premise, but more thoroughly explains how this original infection could have led to an epidemic. It was first proposed in 2000 by Jim Moore, an American specialist in primate behaviour, who published his findings in the journal AIDS Research and Human Retroviruses.7

During the late 19th and early 20th century, much of Africa was ruled by colonial forces. In areas such as French Equatorial Africa and the Belgian Congo, colonial rule was particularly harsh and many Africans were forced into labour camps where sanitation was poor, food was scarce and physical demands were extreme. These factors alone would have been sufficient to create poor health in anyone, so SIV could easily have infiltrated the labour force and taken advantage of their weakened immune systems to become HIV. A stray and perhaps sick chimpanzee with SIV would have made a welcome extra source of food for the workers.

Moore also believes that many of the labourers would have been inoculated with unsterile needles against diseases such as smallpox (to keep them alive and working), and that many of the camps actively employed prostitutes to keep the workers happy, creating numerous possibilities for onward transmission. A large number of labourers would have died before they even developed the first symptoms of AIDS, and those that did get sick would not have stood out as any different in an already disease-ridden population. Even if they had been identified, all evidence (including medical records) that the camps existed was destroyed to cover up the fact that a staggering 50% of the local population were wiped out there.

One final factor Moore uses to support his theory, is the fact that the labour camps were set up around the time that HIV was first believed to have passed into humans - the early part of the 20th century.

The Conspiracy Theory

Some say that HIV is a 'conspiracy theory' or that it is 'man-made'. A recent survey carried out in the US for example, identified a significant number of African Americans who believe HIV was manufactured as part of a biological warfare programme, designed to wipe out large numbers of black and homosexual people.8 Many say this was done under the auspices of the US federal 'Special Cancer Virus Program' (SCVP), possibly with the help of the CIA. Linked in to this theory is the belief that the virus was spread (either deliberately or inadvertently) to thousands of people all over the world through the smallpox inoculation programme, or to gay men through Hepatitis B vaccine trials. While none of these theories can be definitively disproved, the evidence given to back them up is usually based upon supposition and speculation, and ignores the clear link between SIV and HIV or the fact that the virus has been identified in people as far back as 1959.

[besaangel 18]

SIGH....

So did HIV come from an SIV?

It is now generally accepted that HIV is a descendant of a Simian Immunodeficiency Virus because certain strains of SIVs bear a very close resemblance to HIV-1 and HIV-2, the two types of HIV.

HIV-2 for example corresponds to SIVsm, a strain of the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus found in the sooty mangabey (also known as the White-collared monkey), which is indigenous to western Africa.

The more virulent, pandemic strain of HIV, namely HIV-1, was until recently more difficult to place. Until 1999, the closest counterpart that had been identified was SIVcpz, the SIV found in chimpanzees. However, this virus still had certain significant differences from HIV.

What happened in 1999?

In February 1999 a group of researchers from the University of Alabama1 announced that they had found a type of SIVcpz that was almost identical to HIV-1. This particular strain was identified in a frozen sample taken from a captive member of the sub-group of chimpanzees known as Pan troglodytes troglodytes (P. t. troglodytes), which were once common in west-central Africa.

The researchers (led by Paul Sharp of Nottingham University and Beatrice Hahn of the University of Alabama) made the discovery during the course of a 10-year long study into the origins of the virus. They claimed that this sample proved that chimpanzees were the source of HIV-1, and that the virus had at some point crossed species from chimps to humans.

Their final findings were published two years later in Nature magazine2. In this article, they concluded that wild chimps had been infected simultaneously with two different simian immunodeficiency viruses which had "viral sex" to form a third virus that could be passed on to other chimps and, more significantly, was capable of infecting humans and causing AIDS.

These two different viruses were traced back to a SIV that infected red-capped mangabeys and one found in greater spot-nosed monkeys. They believe that the hybridisation took place inside chimps that had become infected with both strains of SIV after they hunted and killed the two smaller species of monkey.

They also concluded that all three 'groups' of HIV-1 - namely Group M, N and O (see our strains and subtypes page for more information on these) - came from the SIV found in P. t. troglodytes, and that each group represented a separate crossover 'event' from chimps to humans.

How could HIV have crossed species?

It has been known for a long time that certain viruses can pass between species. Indeed, the very fact that chimpanzees obtained SIV from two other species of primate shows just how easily this crossover can occur. As animals ourselves, we are just as susceptible. When a viral transfer between animals and humans takes place, it is known as zoonosis.

Below are some of the most common theories about how this 'zoonosis' took place, and how SIV became HIV in humans:

The 'Hunter' Theory

The most commonly accepted theory is that of the 'hunter'. In this scenario, SIVcpz was transferred to humans as a result of chimps being killed and eaten or their blood getting into cuts or wounds on the hunter. Normally the hunter's body would have fought off SIV, but on a few occasions it adapted itself within its new human host and become HIV-1. The fact that there were several different early strains of HIV, each with a slightly different genetic make-up (the most common of which was HIV-1 group M), would support this theory: every time it passed from a chimpanzee to a man, it would have developed in a slightly different way within his body, and thus produced a slightly different strain.

An article published in The Lancet in 20043, also shows how retroviral transfer from primates to hunters is still occurring even today. In a sample of 1099 individuals in Cameroon , they discovered ten (1%) were infected with SFV (Simian Foamy Virus), an illness which, like SIV, was previously thought only to infect primates. All these infections were believed to have been acquired through the butchering and consumption of monkey and ape meat. Discoveries such as this have led to calls for an outright ban on bushmeat hunting to prevent simian viruses being passed to humans.

The Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) theory

Some other rather controversial theories have contended that HIV was transferred iatrogenically (i.e. via medical interventions). One particularly well-publicised idea is that polio vaccines played a role in the transfer.

In his book, The River, the journalist Edward Hooper suggests that HIV can be traced to the testing of an oral polio vaccine called Chat, given to about a million people in the Belgian Congo, Ruanda and Urundi in the late 1950s. To be reproduced, live polio vaccine needs to be cultivated in living tissue, and Hooper's belief is that Chat was grown in kidney cells taken from local chimps infected with SIVcmz. This, he claims, would have resulted in the contamination of the vaccine with chimp SIV, and a large number of people subsequently becoming infected with HIV-1.

Many people have contested Hooper's theories and insist that local chimps were not infected with a strain of SIVcmz that is closely linked to HIV. Furthermore, the oral administration of the vaccine would seem insufficient to cause infection in most people (SIV/HIV needs to get directly into the bloodstream to cause infection - the lining of the mouth and throat generally act as good barriers to the virus).4

In February 2000 the Wistar Institute in Philadelphia (one of the original manufacturers of the Chat vaccine) announced that it had discovered in its stores a phial of polio vaccine that had been used as part of the program. The vaccine was subsequently analysed and in April 2001 it was announced that no trace had been found of either HIV or chimpanzee SIV.5 A second analysis confirmed that only macaque monkey kidney cells, which cannot be infected with SIV or HIV, were used to make Chat.6 While this is just one phial of many, it means that the OPV theory remains unproven.

The fact that the OPV theory accounts for just one (group M) of several different groups of HIV also suggests that transferral must have happened in other ways too, as does the fact that HIV seems to have existed in humans before the vaccine trials were ever carried out. More about when HIV came into being can be found below.

The Contaminated Needle Theory

This is an extension of the original 'hunter' theory. In the 1950s, the use of disposable plastic syringes became commonplace around the world as a cheap, sterile way to administer medicines. However, to African healthcare professionals working on inoculation and other medical programmes, the huge quantities of syringes needed would have been very costly. It is therefore likely that one single syringe would have been used to inject multiple patients without any sterilisation in between. This would rapidly have transferred any viral particles (within a hunter's blood for example) from one person to another, creating huge potential for the virus to mutate and replicate in each new individual it entered, even if the SIV within the original person infected had not yet converted to HIV.

The Colonialism Theory

The colonialism or 'Heart of Darkness' theory, is one of the more recent theories to have entered into the debate. It is again based on the basic 'hunter' premise, but more thoroughly explains how this original infection could have led to an epidemic. It was first proposed in 2000 by Jim Moore, an American specialist in primate behaviour, who published his findings in the journal AIDS Research and Human Retroviruses.7

During the late 19th and early 20th century, much of Africa was ruled by colonial forces. In areas such as French Equatorial Africa and the Belgian Congo, colonial rule was particularly harsh and many Africans were forced into labour camps where sanitation was poor, food was scarce and physical demands were extreme. These factors alone would have been sufficient to create poor health in anyone, so SIV could easily have infiltrated the labour force and taken advantage of their weakened immune systems to become HIV. A stray and perhaps sick chimpanzee with SIV would have made a welcome extra source of food for the workers.

Moore also believes that many of the labourers would have been inoculated with unsterile needles against diseases such as smallpox (to keep them alive and working), and that many of the camps actively employed prostitutes to keep the workers happy, creating numerous possibilities for onward transmission. A large number of labourers would have died before they even developed the first symptoms of AIDS, and those that did get sick would not have stood out as any different in an already disease-ridden population. Even if they had been identified, all evidence (including medical records) that the camps existed was destroyed to cover up the fact that a staggering 50% of the local population were wiped out there.

One final factor Moore uses to support his theory, is the fact that the labour camps were set up around the time that HIV was first believed to have passed into humans - the early part of the 20th century.

The Conspiracy Theory

Some say that HIV is a 'conspiracy theory' or that it is 'man-made'. A recent survey carried out in the US for example, identified a significant number of African Americans who believe HIV was manufactured as part of a biological warfare programme, designed to wipe out large numbers of black and homosexual people.8 Many say this was done under the auspices of the US federal 'Special Cancer Virus Program' (SCVP), possibly with the help of the CIA. Linked in to this theory is the belief that the virus was spread (either deliberately or inadvertently) to thousands of people all over the world through the smallpox inoculation programme, or to gay men through Hepatitis B vaccine trials. While none of these theories can be definitively disproved, the evidence given to back them up is usually based upon supposition and speculation, and ignores the clear link between SIV and HIV or the fact that the virus has been identified in people as far back as 1959.

Nice cut-and-paste from a "finalized" source, sure... Just like many other sources quote different. I cant say or conclude what African Americans and gays confirm, they have their own opinions and kudos to them. I believe different because of the research I've had to do for years. Not going to deny what you say because everyone and every source can conclude what they want, doesnt make it the truth or not. As you stated, they are theories.

[besaangel 18]

Yay, swine flu isnt anything new... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539880,00.html

[PhiLandShiR 18]

Nice cut-and-paste from a "finalized" source, sure... Just like many other sources quote different. I cant say or conclude what African Americans and gays confirm, they have their own opinions and kudos to them. I believe different because of the research I've had to do for years. Not going to deny what you say because everyone and every source can conclude what they want, doesnt make it the truth or not. As you stated, they are theories.

Very true. Although, I have not seen sources that claim its all man made. Most everything I have read tends toward a simiam origin but...

What kind of evidence would you require, to convince you, that its not one great Governmental Conspiracy?

[besaangel 18]

Very true. Although, I have not seen sources that claim its all man made. Most everything I have read tends toward a simiam origin but...

What kind of evidence would you require, to convince you, that its not one great Governmental Conspiracy?

Awwww, aiming to please me, how nice... Well, my issue is that as I said, anything can be published with the right funding but doesnt grant credibility nor is wholely true. Thats my peeve, we are never told the whole truth and for the most part are withheld from information to conclusively make our own opinions. Instead, we are fed whatever they feel like telling us so its hard for the gov to expect individuals to take everything they say and run with it.

Was nice talking to you but I must go finish my research- on "non-gov conspiracies"

[PhiLandShiR 18]

Awwww, aiming to please me, how nice... Well, my issue is that as I said, anything can be published with the right funding but doesnt grant credibility nor is wholely true. Thats my peeve, we are never told the whole truth and for the most part are withheld from information to conclusively make our own opinions. Instead, we are fed whatever they feel like telling us so its hard for the gov to expect individuals to take everything they say and run with it.

Was nice talking to you but I must go finish my research- on "non-gov conspiracies"

Please you?? I don't give a damn if you are pleased or not...

What you say is true but does not address the question.

I just want to know what will convince you that its not a Governmental Conspiracy...

Edited April 28, 2010 by PhiLandShiR

[Peikko 1,575]

To believe in conspiracy theories one generally have to draw conclusions that make the least logical sense when presented with a set of facts.

What it comes down to is believing that a government is willfully and deliberately hoodwinking its citizens. That requires a huge commitment on behalf of government and also requires one to believe that the government is not the government we believe we have elected, but a government that has no party political allegiance, that exists in secret and that has an agenda to achieve something that warrants these deceptions. Wow!