Immigration reform really heating up

[Danno 1,228]

According to the left the tea party ppl are radical. When I saw a cop getting a rock to the head this morning on the news at an immigration law protest in Arizona. Im sure the lefties will be coming out in droves today on how dangerous and vile these ppl are.

Don't kid yourself (not that you were) the left "understands" the frustration of the illegals and while they don't condone their mini riots .. they do appreciate the desperate situation they are in bla bla bla.

[Bunkerwuggy 0]

What were they paid? I highly doubt someone on $20 an hour would complain. Because illegals have suppressed wages, no chance in hell is an America going to earn that anymore.

I will say this though, Hispanic immigrants do have an excellent work ethic and do work hard; no doubt about it. That said, I do think that Americans should have the opportunity to do these jobs and be paid a fair wage for it first.

They're paid $11 an hour. It's not $20, but then I make only a few dollars over $20 and paid quite a bit of money in tuition to get that salary. I don't really think $11 is that bad pay for that job-it's not like they're killing themselves at work...they don't have to work nights or weekends. $11 an hour is almost double what I was paid when I was fresh out of college still in restaurant jobs.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

What were they paid? I highly doubt someone on $20 an hour would complain. Because illegals have suppressed wages, no chance in hell is an America going to earn that anymore.

I will say this though, Hispanic immigrants do have an excellent work ethic and do work hard; no doubt about it. That said, I do think that Americans should have the opportunity to do these jobs and be paid a fair wage for it first.

With low pay comes lots of government help. Housing subsidies,food coopins,medical and dental. So the incentives are awesome to be poor.After all these bennys must seem great to a person that has been dirt poor all their life.

[Ali G. 37]

Don't kid yourself (not that you were) the left "understands" the frustration of the illegals and while they don't condone their mini riots .. they do appreciate the desperate situation they are in bla bla bla.

Yeah because America's 60,000,000 in poverty are living the dream. Look at Detroit, so much money to go around that it's not even funny.

Nevertheless, what about the other 92% of the world that does not live in Latin America? Or don't disadvantaged people from there deserve to have a chance in America? Evidently not only does anyone who condone the illegals not care about the 60 million Americans but they are also indifferent towards the current discrimination of the immigration system. This is something other countries avoid by ensuring Visa's are handed out equitably to people from around the world. That is, rather than allowing one region (Latin America) to hog 80% of the system; as is the case in the United States - both legal and illegal. Now that is what should be reformed.

[Ali G. 37]

They're paid $11 an hour. It's not $20, but then I make only a few dollars over $20 and paid quite a bit of money in tuition to get that salary. I don't really think $11 is that bad pay for that job-it's not like they're killing themselves at work...they don't have to work nights or weekends. $11 an hour is almost double what I was paid when I was fresh out of college still in restaurant jobs.

Realistically why should someone with a college education be paid a high salary? College is not supposed to be just about the money. Or is it because colleges fooled Americans into think they should pay $30K to $100K for an equivalent education that you can purchase in Canada or Australia for half of that. People who do those sorts of jobs work hard and in harsh conditions. Half the time I'm at work I am on the net chatting on VJ and you don't even want to know my salary. Because of illegal aliens and their negative affect on salaries, everyone is now forced to go to college period. In reality not everyone is cut out for college nor should they be.

My experience comes from AUS where minimum wage is $14 USD an hour. A friend of mine owns his own landscaping business in AUS and pays those he hires about $30 an hour. How do they keep such high salaries there, with a reciprocal living standard to match? A tight control of the labor market. Actually, over there they have had the opposite problem. Because the government pushed people into higher-education, there is a shortage of blue-collar workers driving their salaries through the roof; which severely contradicts arguments by those pro-illegal that it's good for the country. Difference is I have living proof of what restricting the labor pool does for salaries; whereas, they are running on opinion and ideology.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Ali G.

[SMOKE 1,426]

Don't kid yourself (not that you were) the left "understands" the frustration of the illegals and while they don't condone their mini riots .. they do appreciate the desperate situation they are in bla bla bla.

i'm betting if the illegal immigrants were holding IT degrees, it'd be a whole new ball game for the VJ illegal immigrant supporters. but, since illegal immigrants usually don't. its business as usual.

[Ali G. 37]

i'm betting if the illegal immigrants were holding IT degrees, it'd be a whole new ball game for the VJ illegal immigrant supporters. but, since illegal immigrants usually don't. its business as usual.

Exactly. Because it screws over the 70% of America without a degree, these supporters are like what's the big deal. How about we open up the borders so the 350,000 Indians and Chinese graduating as engineers can freely enter the US? That way Steven will be forced to compete with someone who will do the same work for $10 an hour. Then come tell me how awesome limitless immigration is.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Ali G.

[SMOKE 1,426]

Exactly. Because it screws over the 70% of America without a degree, these supporters are like what's the big deal. How about we open up the borders so the 350,000 Indians and Chinese graduating as engineers can freely enter the US? That way Steven will be forced to compete with someone who will do the same work for $10 an hour. Then come tell me how awesome limitless immigration is.

i think that should be included in this 'reform' bill.

[Ali G. 37]

i think that should be included in this 'reform' bill.

You know how these guys are. Remember the Seattle protests? They cry murder when it affects themselves but have no problem when it f###s over millions of Americans, forcing them to compete with someone who will work 12 hour days for $6. You are right, how about opening this up to everyone rather than just blue-collar workers? How about making it illegal for a white-collar employer to screen status, that way thousands of people educated abroad can come enter and compete with people like Steven. Fair is fair.

For a country to do well, everyone has to have a chance to earn a great salary. When you have thousands of people entering weekly that are willing to work for nothing, this will never happen. It also means the 60,000,000 Americans already living in poverty have no chance in hell of moving up - ever.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Ali G.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

i'm betting if the illegal immigrants were holding IT degrees, it'd be a whole new ball game for the VJ illegal immigrant supporters. but, since illegal immigrants usually don't. its business as usual.

IT is going overseas, anyway. It would make very little difference.

For a country to do well, everyone has to have a chance to earn a great salary.

Become a Project Manager. Turn your brain off and become an Excel/MSP drone. Big bucks.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....

[SMOKE 1,426]

IT is going overseas, anyway. It would make very little difference.

so are manufacturing & all other blue collar jobs.'very little difference' become very big very quick when its facing you.

Edited April 26, 2010 by SMOKE

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The initial question was what is reform. Evidently for you reform means amnesty.

Actually there are numerous legitimate arguments. However, it does puzzle me that you are now basically insinuating we need illegal aliens so that I can buy a burger at Wendy's cheaper. What you are effectively saying is that this cheap labor really helps me, because it's not as if they are going to do my job. Boy do you guys cry murder when your jobs are exported accordingly to return higher profits for shareholders. Then it becomes wrong and we get all anti-corporation and anti-globalization. AKA selfish hypocrisy.

The rest of the first world doesn't solely base decisions on 230 year old cliches or sayings like, Give me your yad yad yda etc. Does it not say anything to you that not one of these countries has a liberal enter as you please policy? Nevertheless, so basically you don't deem having jobs accessible to the 10% of Americans unemployed as being a compelling argument? Spare me with the they are just dishwashers. They now pretty much do every blue-collar job. Jobs that for hundreds of years American thrived on, jobs that many abroad still make a good salary doing.

As Gary pointed out here, the second they give them amnesty and access to legitimate wages, a whole new wave will start to come here because the employers will fire them. What are these new citizens going to do once new illegals take their jobs? You guessed it (well probably not) join the ranks of the 60,000,000 Americans already living in poverty.

The North American Free Trade Agreement lifted most restrictions on trade between Canada and Mexico. It is only logical to consider all labor as one commodity. I've argued before for the protection of American jobs but protectionism isn't going to get us there. If we are to believe the architects of NAFTA, Mexico's economy will improve. As it is currently structured though, it hasn't. In fact, it is the core reason why we've had an influx of illegal immigrants because we dumped our cheap, heavily subsidized corn on the Mexican market forcing millions of indigent Mexican farmers out of business. Making H1 work visas easily available to businesses who need low skilled laborers is the best route moving forward.

As for what to do with those who are here already - its been pointed out time and again, that it is logistically impossibly and financially infeasible to deport all them back. True amnesty would be to allow them to stay here without any legal consequences and nobody is suggesting that in Washington. Those who wish to stay will have to pay fines and will have to go through an immigration process to become citizens. Opponents of that provision keep throwing the term 'amnesty' out there as if it is accurate. This is more akin to where someone is found guilty of tax evasion, but instead of being given jail time which does neither side any good, he is paying a fine. Given our current Deficit, collecting fines from those who want to stay here will be a benefit. Meanwhile, they can continue to work here which is helping our economy.

Edited April 26, 2010 by El Buscador

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

so are manufacturing & all other blue collar jobs.

the real reason for all of that is that we've made it too expensive to do business here.

minimum wages, workplace safety standards, environmental standards, municipal licensing, etc etc etc.

what this country needs are "zones" where those rules don't apply. they will be ugly and gritty but they will provide tons of (admittedly ѕhitty) jobs.

[Bunkerwuggy 0]

Realistically why should someone with a college education be paid a high salary? College is not supposed to be just about the money. Or is it because colleges fooled Americans into think they should pay $30K to $100K for an equivalent education that you can purchase in Canada or Australia for half of that. People who do those sorts of jobs work hard and in harsh conditions. Half the time I'm at work I am on the net chatting on VJ and you don't even want to know my salary. Because of illegal aliens and their negative affect on salaries, everyone is now forced to go to college period. In reality not everyone is cut out for college nor should they be.

My experience comes from AUS where minimum wage is $14 USD an hour. A friend of mine owns his own landscaping business in AUS and pays those he hires about $30 an hour. How do they keep such high salaries there, with a reciprocal living standard to match? A tight control of the labor market. Actually, over there they have had the opposite problem. Because the government pushed people into higher-education, there is a shortage of blue-collar workers driving their salaries through the roof; which severely contradicts arguments by those pro-illegal that it's good for the country. Difference is I have living proof of what restricting the labor pool does for salaries; whereas, they are running on opinion and ideology.

See I don't make the rules - I just play by them! That's exactly the reason I went to college too, because I really didn't have a choice in the matter. I had never really thought to blame illegals for that though, it just made sense to me that there would be different wages for skilled vs non-skilled work. I think rather than the job itself, I always looked at it in terms of the value of the person doing the job. I worked much "harder" at McDonald's than I do at my current job, yet there I was easily replaceable, whereas now there aren't as many out there qualified for my position.

Regardless of whether or not the pay is "fair" in my mind, my attitude has always been that when in need, you take what you can get. I was laid off in November of '08 , found full-time work again in January '09, but I didn't spend a single day without a job. I'd much rather earn what I can as opposed to relying on what unemployment was willing to give me. The opportunities are out there, it just depends on the individual and what they are willing to do.

[Ali G. 37]

The North American Free Trade Agreement lifted most restrictions on trade between Canada and Mexico. It is only logical to consider all labor as one commodity. I've argued before for the protection of American jobs but protectionism isn't going to get us there. If we are to believe the architects of NAFTA, Mexico's economy will improve. As it is currently structured though, it hasn't. In fact, it is the core reason why we've had an influx of illegal immigrants because we dumped our cheap, heavily subsidized corn on the Mexican market forcing millions of indigent Mexican farmers out of business. Making H1 work visas easily available to businesses who need low skilled laborers is the best route moving forward.

As for what to do with those who are here already - its been pointed out time and again, that it is logistically impossibly and financially infeasible to deport all them back. True amnesty would be to allow them to stay here without any legal consequences and nobody is suggesting that in Washington. Those who wish to stay will have to pay fines and will have to go through an immigration process to become citizens. Opponents of that provision keep throwing the term 'amnesty' out there as if it is accurate. This is more akin to where someone is found guilty of tax evasion, but instead of being given jail time which does neither side any good, he is paying a fine. Given our current Deficit, collecting fines from those who want to stay here will be a benefit. Meanwhile, they can continue to work here which is helping our economy.

Collecting fines? Dude, they cannot even pay for the $2 lunch of their child, thus qualify for free lunch, yet we are going to collect fines.

Actually NAFTA really helped Mexico, hence every second thing I buy now being made in Mexico. That's not the issue here. The issue is that it's simply too easy to setup shop in America period. Illegal aliens cannot piss in other countries without fear of being caught. Anyone caught hiring them faces prison time on top of the hefty fines. Over here the profit is still worth the risk of hiring them. Illegal aliens can still use any and every taxpapyer service for free.

I'll ask you this, the United States population is hardly in the few millions; however, you advocate that much like the 1800 and 1900s, it still makes sense to allow a limitless number of people to migrate. Does the same logic apply to China? Would allowing more people to enter China actually be beneficial for their economy and living standard? Immigration works for countries like Canada or Australia that are still large yet relatively small in population; as was the US in the 1800 and 1900. The thought that more people would benefit China or the US is mind-boggling. The thought that America's 60,000,000 living in poverty will benefit by allowing even more unskilled cheap labor is just lunacy.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Ali G.