If you have an accent

[Brad and Vika 129]

The part "and are subject to the jurisdiction thereof" has become the interesting part.

Native Americans, let's call them Indians as the country India was known as Hindustan at the time were were talking about Indians, are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States if they live in their reservations, and the same applies to diplomats. Therefore, children of diplomats born in the US do not become US citizen automatically.

This can now argued in a way that illegal immigrants are outside the jurisdiction of the US as well. I'm not qualified to have an informed opinion in this regard, but it's an interesting thought nonetheless.

Clever. I think the Amendment as it is written was litigated over pretty well. Nontheless, a good point.

[Brad and Vika 129]

For no apparent reason, I might be suspicious of his motives. But if it's the law of the land, then I have no problem with it whatsoever. If they want to check whether I'm here legally or not, more power to them...it's a small price to pay and I'll happily comply. I don't think twice when someone cards me, so it's not much different.

I feel exactly the same, and do not see the cause for all the heartburn.

And on the subject of the 14th Amendment - If I sneak into say, France with my pregnant wife, and she has the baby there, the child doesn't get citizenship automatically. Shouldn't happen here either.

[visaveteran 1]

Actually, cops often set up road blocks to randomly check for registration, insurance papers, etc. I've been through a few. The cops asked for my ID even though I'd done nothing illegal. Should I have refused to comply?

[LvivLovers 39]

Actually, cops often set up road blocks to randomly check for registration, insurance papers, etc. I've been through a few. The cops asked for my ID even though I'd done nothing illegal. Should I have refused to comply?

Likewise. I remember in the past here in Atlanta them setting up roadblocks all the time down in areas where we have bars to check for drunk drivers. I had no problem complying with this at all. I knew what they were looking for and it was small inconvenience that might possibly save some lives. No big deal.

Brad, can you imagine if that was the case in France and Americans kept showing up and giving birth? lol Sacre Bleu!!!!! They'd put a stop to that pretty fast I bet.

[mox 298]

Wth does the 2nd ammendment have to do with the 14th? Just because one needs fixing/clarification due to unforseen circumstances does not mean everything else is invalid. That's why we have ammendments in the first place. It's not always possible to get things right the first time.

I put a little smirky face next to my reply because we've had conversations about the 2nd amendment before, where I was damn near threatened with physical violence (not really) for even daring to suggest that an amendment to the Constitution (specifically the 2nd) could in any way, shape, or form be tampered with. Apparently some amendments are created more equal than others.

For no apparent reason, I might be suspicious of his motives. But if it's the law of the land, then I have no problem with it whatsoever. If they want to check whether I'm here legally or not, more power to them...it's a small price to pay and I'll happily comply. I don't think twice when someone cards me, so it's not much different.

So then what's your problem with the 14th amendment? It's the law of the land.

I feel exactly the same, and do not see the cause for all the heartburn.

And on the subject of the 14th Amendment - If I sneak into say, France with my pregnant wife, and she has the baby there, the child doesn't get citizenship automatically. Shouldn't happen here either.

Wow. I guess I tend to trust my government a lot less than you folks. Where's slim when you need him?

Actually, cops often set up road blocks to randomly check for registration, insurance papers, etc. I've been through a few. The cops asked for my ID even though I'd done nothing illegal. Should I have refused to comply?

Why not? If you've done nothing illegal, they have no legal basis to detain you. Have a nice evening sir and drive safely.

[visaveteran 1]

Where's slim when you need him?

Yes, where the hell IS Slim? Long time, no post.

[LvivLovers 39]

I put a little smirky face next to my reply because we've had conversations about the 2nd amendment before, where I was damn near threatened with physical violence (not really) for even daring to suggest that an amendment to the Constitution (specifically the 2nd) could in any way, shape, or form be tampered with. Apparently some amendments are created more equal than others.

I assume you mean "we" the board and not me personally. I'm all for the 2nd ammendment but I'm not a big gun guy.

So then what's your problem with the 14th amendment? It's the law of the land.

My problem is, it's proving to be very flawed and costing us a lot of money as well as causing quite a few other problems. That and the fact it seems really illogical...I think most people would agree with that.

Wow. I guess I tend to trust my government a lot less than you folks. Where's slim when you need him?

I don't trust our or any other government, but I don't see having to show an ID as materially increasing my threat level at all.

Why not? If you've done nothing illegal, they have no legal basis to detain you. Have a nice evening sir and drive safely.

Because we have a serious problem that needs to be dealt with. Sometimes you have to make a personal sacrifice for the greater good.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Brad, can you imagine if that was the case in France and Americans kept showing up and giving birth? lol Sacre Bleu!!!!! They'd put a stop to that pretty fast I bet.

It would be excused if we were visiting Euro Disney or something at the time.

[mox 298]

Because we have a serious problem that needs to be dealt with. Sometimes you have to make a personal sacrifice for the greater good.

"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." - B. Franklin

[clueless_in_usa 8]

My problem is, it's proving to be very flawed and costing us a lot of money as well as causing quite a few other problems. That and the fact it seems really illogical...I think most people would agree with that.

So, let us say that we have a pair of "legal" refugees. They are not USCs yet, and maybe it will take them years to qualify for citizenship. They have a child. According to your logic, the child has no citizenship, unless the parents return to a country where they escaped from and in which they may be murdered, or at least jailed for life.

Is that your suggestion? Interesting!

I like the ideas of this group of people more and more every day. Слава Богу!

[Brad and Vika 129]

So, let us say that we have a pair of "legal" refugees. They are not USCs yet, and maybe it will take them years to qualify for citizenship. They have a child. According to your logic, the child has no citizenship, unless the parents return to a country where they escaped from and in which they may be murdered, or at least jailed for life.

Is that your suggestion? Interesting!

I like the ideas of this group of people more and more every day. Слава Богу!

No, the child is a citizen of its parent's country. In my example above, the French government would see the child as clearly American.

Amended to say that I think this is the case in France - not to represent myself as an expert

Edited April 30, 2010 by Brad and Vika

[visaveteran 1]

So, let us say that we have a pair of "legal" refugees. They are not USCs yet, and maybe it will take them years to qualify for citizenship. They have a child. According to your logic, the child has no citizenship, unless the parents return to a country where they escaped from and in which they may be murdered, or at least jailed for life.

Is that your suggestion? Interesting!

I like the ideas of this group of people more and more every day. Слава Богу!

If they're refugees, then they have been granted asylum and became legal residents in the process...something close to the process with our wives (husbands). So if they have a kid, the kid is American. The only issue is with out and out illegals. Why should we reward bad behavior with citizenship?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Actually, cops often set up road blocks to randomly check for registration, insurance papers, etc. I've been through a few. The cops asked for my ID even though I'd done nothing illegal. Should I have refused to comply?

No. For a lot of reasons. Roadblocks have been through all levels of the courst and found to be legal if they are checking everyone and not discriminating. You are operating a private vehicle on a public road, you cannot do so without being licensed by the state and meeting state requirements. The state has a right and duty to be sure you meet the requirements to operate a private vehicle on a public road. You and I know they are checking for drunks, but they are in fact, only checking for proper licensing and documentation. Oops, sometimes they find drunks too. Completely by surprise, of course.

Again I have no quarrel with being asked for ID. Oddly enough the Democrat party, last summer, directed it's congress people to check constituents for proof of citizenship, residency and voter registration in order to attend town hall meetings and protest the then-pending health care bill. I guess it is OK with them to do that to attend a meeting, but not to be in the USA. As I said, this issue brings in all manner of stupidity.

But the Arizona law is completely, 100% worthless to prevent illegal immigration. It is not a law that can possibly affect the issue it pretends to address. It is more worthless than the 10 year moratorium that was placed on bayonet lugs during the so-called "assualt weapons ban" in order to "prevent crime". And I thought that one would never be surpassed for pure stupidity. For one thing, the Arizona law cannot affect anyone that isn't already here illegally. The goal should be stop and prevent illegal immigration , NOT to chase shadows all over the country. This isn't Andorra, it is a pretty big place and it is easy to get lost once you cross over the border. All the police in Arizona working overtime couldn't even scratch the surface, and when they catch one...then what? Call ICE?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

So, let us say that we have a pair of "legal" refugees. They are not USCs yet, and maybe it will take them years to qualify for citizenship. They have a child. According to your logic, the child has no citizenship, unless the parents return to a country where they escaped from and in which they may be murdered, or at least jailed for life.

Is that your suggestion? Interesting!

I like the ideas of this group of people more and more every day. Слава Богу!

No. As usual, you live up to your name. There have been several proposals to connect citizenship with the nationality of the parents in this country, as it is in other countries. ALL of these proposals have allowed that citizens of foreign countries who are legally present and residents of the USA would be allowed to have their children considered US citizens if they chose, Most proposals for this allow the parents until as late as the childs 13th birthday to make this decision. Your horror scenario has never been proposed by anyone except someone completely ignorant of what has been put forth.

We are one of very few (if not the ONLY) country, where a woman, by herself, can enter illegally, walk into a hosptial minutes after crossing the border illegally and recieve free medical care to give birth to a child and have the child considered a citizen. It is preposterous. This clause written into our constitution at a time when most of the founders had been born in a foreign country and was done so to protect their children. Or I should say the "2nd generation". It long ago lost any particular value or meaning and should be changed. To do so would require a constitutional amendment.

No such scenario as you suggest could occur under any of the proposed amendments which have been put forth to date. Do some research first and you will at least look less "clueless"

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I assume you mean "we" the board and not me personally. I'm all for the 2nd ammendment but I'm not a big gun guy.

My problem is, it's proving to be very flawed and costing us a lot of money as well as causing quite a few other problems. That and the fact it seems really illogical...I think most people would agree with that.

I don't trust our or any other government, but I don't see having to show an ID as materially increasing my threat level at all.

Because we have a serious problem that needs to be dealt with. Sometimes you have to make a personal sacrifice for the greater good.

Sureendering our rights will not prevent illegal immigration. No such surrender of rights could even remotely be considered for "the greater good. Please, be serious.

We have plenty of labor laws that are being violated by US employers that can be enforced with punitive taxes and put a stop to the illegal immigration post haste. Anything else is smoke and mirrors. The raccoons will keep coming until we slam the lid shut on the garbage can. The fence around the yard won't stop them.

we do nto need to build a fence, check anyone's ID (except random inspections of employers). Really, I mean you catch a bunch of illegals plucking chickens at Tyson's...you fine Tyson's $300,000,000, run them into bankruptcy, sell their factory to pay the tax...and NO ONE will hire an illegal. From now on, chicken pluckers will get a paid a fair wage, get benefits and have better and safer working conditions..or else. Chicken will cost more. You bust a landscaper mowing lawns in Brentwood and confiscate a few mansions to pay the tax and NO ONE will hire an illegal. From now on, people mowing lawns will get paid better and have safer woring conditions...or else. Getting your grass cut will cost more. When the word gets out...NO jobs, NO medical care, NO welfare, NO education, NO wire transfer of funds...where do you think they will go? They will walk right back. Adios Amigos. Glad to be your neighbor! And we can be proud that we saved them from being exploited and abused and taken advantage of by the evil and greedy Yanquis!!!!!!!!