If you have an accent

[clueless_in_usa 8]

Most of your posts have consisted of insults, so I will consider the source. My posts have detailed many arguments and reasons for my position. Yours have detailed none. Except why I am not a good candidate for President or Secretary of State. Now there is a post that goes right to the point. You still cannot explain how it is that you are OK with your illegal immigrant "friends" being exploited and underpaid so that greedy American business owners can increase their profits and reduce their trouble in paperwork. Some friend you turned out to be.

You have nothing to add to the conversation and I will not waste my time any further answering 4th grade level insults. I mean, what IS your position? Open the borders, look the other way as people are exploited because they "want it"? Or what, exactly? It seems your point is to argue with Gary on whatever position I take and take none of your own. It really makes you look foolish and incapable of thought just to continue to argue about....nothing.

I don't explain my reasons to you because arguing with you is like arguing with a dictator: it is your way or the highway. Otherwise you appeal to insults.

Your ideas are similar to the era of PROHIBITION. Everybody thought that preventing the sale of alcohol was going to solve all problems, reason why it was added to the constitution, but instead it created many more and worse problems.

Your ideas are exactly the same. Prohibit everybody from hiring illegals and they will leave. WRONG! You prevent illegals from carrying out legal activities (honorable work, even if they are exploited) and they will turn into illegal and violent activities that will not be TAXED. Your "solution" will drive criminal activity to the roof (no pun intended).

The real solution is education and an orderly insertion into society. And those who are caught being illegals unable to follow the rules of society, should pay the consequences of the laws that already exist.

I will not continue your slavery argument anymore. It is a total waste of time. I do not subscribe to your theory of "my way or the highway." This is not VJ anymore. This is Gary's board. He knows it all and his arguments are the only right ones. The rest of us are stupid, unless we come out and write: "whatever you say, Master!"

You have a lot of followers already. Think about a life in politics. You might go far and your ideas will become law.

[mox 298]

I agree with much of Gary's comments about business being the culprit but, frankly, if we wait to crack down on businesses using or exploiting illegals, we'll have another 20 million illegals before anything is ever done.

I don't see why. Treat it like drugs. You knowingly hire illegals, you are charged with a felony. You also forfeit your business to the federal government just like you'd lose your house if you were running a meth lab. Hiring illegals to improve the bottom line suddenly becomes too much of a liability when you are facing federal time and losing your business.

[visaveteran 1]

I don't see why. Treat it like drugs. You knowingly hire illegals, you are charged with a felony. You also forfeit your business to the federal government just like you'd lose your house if you were running a meth lab. Hiring illegals to improve the bottom line suddenly becomes too much of a liability when you are facing federal time and losing your business.

I'm all for it. But nobody's taking the actions to do this. How long must we wait?

[mox 298]

I'm all for it. But nobody's taking the actions to do this. How long must we wait?

Good question, ask the President why he isn't pushing congress to act faster and more decisively. Better yet, ask your representatives to make the criminalization of hiring illegals one of their top priorities.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Er.. at the relatively high risk of throwing gas on the fire... Why is it only the businesses that need to be policed? How does a peace officer tell between a legal guest worker, an illegal alien, and a drug dealer just by looking? Why can't police check i.d.s on folks where there is cause, and take into custody those with false documents, or no documents? Why can't we scrutinize and regulate who comes into the country - like every other government does?

Now, while some of you are in the cage warming up for your at bat, I am not advocating any sort of profiling at all. Things like Tarry searches are already a matter of law for all, and no trouoble with the 4th Amendment. No stretch taking a look at the vehicle, a person in it, or a person without a vehicle, if documents don't look right or there aren't any. Watching the b1tchslapping festival going on here got me to thinking - when is the last time I was out and about without ID (grade school I think), and would I have a problem at all showing it to a cop for any reason (no). Missing something maybe, but I just don't see the huge problem some of you do, and the issue with the request for ID is far outweighed by security and border integrity in my mind.

[mox 298]

Er.. at the relatively high risk of throwing gas on the fire... Why is it only the businesses that need to be policed?

I don't think I'd advocate *only* policing businesses. But if you're going to go fishing, you go where they're biting the most. (says the guy who doesn't like comparing people to cattle I AM SUCH A HYPOCRITE!!!) Illegals, for the most part, cross for work. You take that away, you take away the vast majority of illegals. You also have the beneficial side-effect of putting some dickhead ####-sticks in jail (under the new "Mox Law" which states that people who knowingly hire illegals get to be some dude's wife for the next 5 years) who hire them. It's a win-win. Next week I bring peace to the Middle East.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I don't think I'd advocate *only* policing businesses. But if you're going to go fishing, you go where they're biting the most. (says the guy who doesn't like comparing people to cattle I AM SUCH A HYPOCRITE!!!) Illegals, for the most part, cross for work. You take that away, you take away the vast majority of illegals. You also have the beneficial side-effect of putting some dickhead ####-sticks in jail (under the new "Mox Law" which states that people who knowingly hire illegals get to be some dude's wife for the next 5 years) who hire them. It's a win-win. Next week I bring peace to the Middle East.

I don't disagree with policing businesses as well - but the other side of the enforcement coin, the individual illegal, also has its due. If you spend too much effort on the business and too little on the State/Federal catch-and-release program, what you have left are loads of illegals who have no choice but to work at the illegal (and therefore unregulated)"businesses". Then you have the aforementioned slavery for real.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Brad and Vika

[ccndyeth 0]

They should be put in jail they are breaking the LAW by circumventing immigration federal laws. The act of being in the U.S. with false, no documentation or thru non legal channels is ILLEGAL. It is not fair to the rest of us who have spent, time, money, absence of loved ones who have done everything legally to have a president or congress hand over citizenship to someone who broke the law. Those of us waiting for K-1 visas, conditional resident cards, permanant resident cards, citizenship naturalization after years of worry, waiting, money for someone to tell us we can or cannot be together and have someone cross a border, tax our system, and put this country in danger and nothing was ever GIVEN to us is that fairer than asking for identification from someone when they get pulled over for breaking the law YET ONCE AGAIN.

Nuff Said,

Me

Very True!!!!

[mox 298]

I don't disagree with policing businesses as well - but the other side of the enforcement coin, the individual illegal, also has its due. If you spend too much effort on the business and too little on the State/Federal catch-and-release program, what you have left are loads of illegals who have no choice but to work at the illegal (and therefore unregulated)"businesses". Then you have the aforementioned slavery for real.

Sure. And really, I don't think anyone has a problem with that. I just don't think we need to turn our nation into a police state in doing it. I don't think it's right that a cop should be able to just pull you aside and demand your "documents." The President and Democratic members of congress are constantly being accused of trying to bring European-style socialism to the US, but many of the same people making those accusations have completely missed that the Arizona law propels us towards a European-style police state. I think the problem can and should be addressed without piddling on the Constitution. If this were an attack on our 2nd amendment rights instead of the 1st amendment, I wonder how popular it would be amongst conservative champions.

[visaveteran 1]

When a younger person tries to buy alcohol, he/she has to show an ID card. If you want to cash a check, you have to show an ID card. When you enter a military base, you have to show an ID card. When a cop pulls you over, you have to show your license and registration and maybe insurance papers. Now, all of a sudden, showing an ID card asking for the moon. Why? Because some people are rooting for the illegals. Because they are seen as good people who just want a better life. And, of course, the millions already here make a big fuss when any law, reasonable or not, is passed. The people who support illegals are Hispanics, liberals, Hollywood and the rich effete who don't have to deal with day to day reality.

It's not unconstitutional to require people to verify they are legal residents. If this were not true, how can we have immigration laws? Any constitution that allows illegals to not have to prove their status is crazy. And why do Mexicans and South Americans get a free pass when they enter and the rest don't? Isn't that discrimination?

There's a great opinion piece in the WSJ: http://online.wsj.co...ctions_opinion.

Read it.

Edited April 30, 2010 by visaveteran

[thongd4me 69]

You'll be put in jail, unless you carry your passport/green card with you.

I can fake any kind of accent and no I won't be carrying my passport or green card in Arizona.

Yawn...

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I don't explain my reasons to you because arguing with you is like arguing with a dictator: it is your way or the highway. Otherwise you appeal to insults.

Your ideas are similar to the era of PROHIBITION. Everybody thought that preventing the sale of alcohol was going to solve all problems, reason why it was added to the constitution, but instead it created many more and worse problems.

Your ideas are exactly the same. Prohibit everybody from hiring illegals and they will leave. WRONG! You prevent illegals from carrying out legal activities (honorable work, even if they are exploited) and they will turn into illegal and violent activities that will not be TAXED. Your "solution" will drive criminal activity to the roof (no pun intended).

The real solution is education and an orderly insertion into society. And those who are caught being illegals unable to follow the rules of society, should pay the consequences of the laws that already exist.

I will not continue your slavery argument anymore. It is a total waste of time. I do not subscribe to your theory of "my way or the highway." This is not VJ anymore. This is Gary's board. He knows it all and his arguments are the only right ones. The rest of us are stupid, unless we come out and write: "whatever you say, Master!"

You have a lot of followers already. Think about a life in politics. You might go far and your ideas will become law.

Your comments about prohibition are true to a point. The criminal activity and smuggling of alcohol during prohibition was caused by the creation of economic incentive to do so. Most things exist because of economic incentive. Those that don't are by forced mandate.

There exists an economic incentive for illegal workers. They are already illegal. I propose, actually, making them LEGAL, but TAXED. I do NOT suggest imprisoning anyone that hires illegal immigrants. I suggest TAXING them $500,000 per day, per worker. Since it is a TAX their property can be seized to pay the tax. Hence, go ahead and hire the illegal to mow your lawn...if you want to risk losing your home. This will immediately ed the demand, the economic incentive. at the same time, enforce the provisions of the health care reform just passed, it is NOT for illegal aliens, it is specifically NOT for illegal aliens. So require proof of legal presence for any medical treatment except life saving treatment. same for education. Governm,ent welfare programs are specifically NOT for illegal aliens. enforce the existing law and make each person applying for any government benefit show that they are eligible.

When alcohol was again legalized, it took away the economic incentive for criminal activity related to alcohol. The criminals that ran illegal alcohol, at least the big time ones, were criminals before and continued to be criminals after prohibition. The small time bootleggers went out of business. The criminals shifted to other criminal activity. Criminal foreigners now involved in smuggling humans will probably shift to smuggling something else. So what? While we lament the murders and kidnappings in Mexico spilling over into the US, for the most part the people killed need killing anyway. How many tears are YOU shedding over one drug runner killing another? Keep innocent citizens out of the way and sell them bullets!

To suggest, as you do, that good honest, hard working people will turn to a life of crime to supplement the work they had been doing is not only really dumb, it is insulting to your illegal immigrant "friends". Criminals are criminals, they do what criminals do. Why would anyone work 60 hours a week in brutally hard work for paltry sums and continue to be exploited if they could just be criminals? Your argument makes no sense.

Eliminating the economic incentive would eliminate 90% or more of illegal immigration. Just like prohibiotn. eliminating the economic incentive for illegal activity, ended nearly all the illegal activity related to alcohol. You STILL have not answered why you would be against that and why you are against enforcing our laws regarding pay and working conditions. You seem to be determined to disagree, just to disagree. That is the new type of dumb that this issue breeds.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

When a younger person tries to buy alcohol, he/she has to show an ID card. If you want to cash a check, you have to show an ID card. When you enter a military base, you have to show an ID card. When a cop pulls you over, you have to show your license and registration and maybe insurance papers. Now, all of a sudden, showing an ID card asking for the moon. Why? Because some people are rooting for the illegals. Because they are seen as good people who just want a better life. And, of course, the millions already here make a big fuss when any law, reasonable or not, is passed. The people who support illegals are Hispanics, liberals, Hollywood and the rich effete who don't have to deal with day to day reality.

It's not unconstitutional to require people to verify they are legal residents. If this were not true, how can we have immigration laws? Any constitution that allows illegals to not have to prove their status is crazy. And why do Mexicans and South Americans get a free pass when they enter and the rest don't? Isn't that discrimination?

There's a great opinion piece in the WSJ: http://online.wsj.co...ctions_opinion.

Read it.

I do not question any of this. My wife carries her green card as required by law. (incidentally that law, if you read it, applies to "aliens legally present" in the USA. There is no requirement for anyone that entered illegally to carry any form of ID )

Anyway, my point is that the new Arizona law is STUPID, not that it is unconstitutional (which it may be, but who cares?) It is just STUPID. It will do NOTHING to prevent illegal immigration in the USA. In Arizona it will make it easier for employers of illegal workers to abuse them and exploit them.

Why didn't the state implement a STATE tax of $500,000 per day, per illegal worker for any employer that hires one, including homeowners? Why didn't they implement a law forbidding the holding of public office if you employ an illegal alien? There would be NO QUESTION of the constitutionality of a state implmenting a state employment tax. Why doesn't the new law require showing ID to get medical care or go to school? Many cities and states have employment taxes. Would Nancy Pelosi object to t state employment tax? I think not. The elephant in the room is plain to see and he is trumpeting in triumph again!

They did not because they DO NOT want to end the "problem". They want the illegal workers there because they need them to do cheap work. They WANTED to make a show for their racist voting base, which happens to be of the "throw the bums out" persuasion. when the majority of their racist constituents are of the "we need their votes" persuasion, they suggest amnesty and a path to citizenship (thereby insuring more welfare recipients and a new flood of illegals)

they passed a law that did not do anything, but will earn them the votes of 70% of Arizonans who bought off on the BS. Other states with the same IQ will do the same after the politicians there see if the politicians in Arizona get more votes now.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I don't think I'd advocate *only* policing businesses. But if you're going to go fishing, you go where they're biting the most. (says the guy who doesn't like comparing people to cattle I AM SUCH A HYPOCRITE!!!) Illegals, for the most part, cross for work. You take that away, you take away the vast majority of illegals. You also have the beneficial side-effect of putting some dickhead ####-sticks in jail (under the new "Mox Law" which states that people who knowingly hire illegals get to be some dude's wife for the next 5 years) who hire them. It's a win-win. Next week I bring peace to the Middle East.

the problem with this Mox, and I have considered it, is that it requires "due process" to put someone in jail. We don;tnedd to mess with that. Make it LEGAL to hire an illegal immigrant but TAX it to a point that causes financial ruin if you do so. The due process required to enforce a tax and apply a tax lein is SO much less burdensome, it just happens without you even knowing it until you get the notice from the IRS.

[mox 298]

When a younger person tries to buy alcohol, he/she has to show an ID card. If you want to cash a check, you have to show an ID card. When you enter a military base, you have to show an ID card. When a cop pulls you over, you have to show your license and registration and maybe insurance papers.

Not true. In not a single one of these examples do you *have* to show ID. You may not get your beer, you may not get your check cashed, you may not be allowed onto the military base, and you may be arrested for the crime the police stopped you for, but in not one single example are you ever compelled to provide identification.

Now, all of a sudden, showing an ID card asking for the moon. Why? Because some people are rooting for the illegals.

This is rhetoric. People here, including myself, have gone to great lengths to explain that opposition to this law does not mean support for illegals. If, as you have said in the past, you want real dialog, then please drop the rhetoric.

There's a great opinion piece in the WSJ:

Oh dear god, Peggy Noonan? I'll read her op ed if you'll read an Ariana Huffington op ed. These people are part of the problem, not the solution.