If you have an accent

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I guess you missed all the news about the Mexican drug cartels shooting up border towns, killing US cops and bystanders.

As for TB in the USA, here's the deal:

Among U.S.-born persons, the number and rate of TB cases continuedto decline in 2006. The U.S.-born TB rate was 2.3 per 100,000population (5,924 or 43.3% of all cases with known origin ofbirth), representing a 7.0% decline in rate since 2005 and a68.6% decline since 1993. Among foreign-born persons, the number of TB cases increasedin 2006. As the rateof decline in TB cases among foreign-born persons lagged behindthe decline in TB cases among U.S.-born persons, the foreign-bornto U.S.-born rate ratio increased 7.0%, from 8.9 in 2005 to9.5 in 2006. In 2006, approximately half (55.6%) of TB casesamong foreign-born persons were reported in persons from fivecountries: Mexico (1,912), the Philippines (856), Vietnam (630),India (540), and China (376).

In 2006, for the third consecutive year, more TB cases werereported among Hispanics than any other racial/ethnic population.Among persons with TB whose country of birth was known, 95.6%(3,126 of 3,269) of Asians, 74.7% (3,024 of 4,050) of Hispanics,29.9% (1,110 of 3,712) of blacks, and 17.8% (427 of 2,404) ofwhites were foreign born. From 2005 to 2006, TB rates declinedfor all racial/ethnic minorities except American Indians/AlaskaNatives and Native Hawaiians or Other Pacific Islanders.

Yes, Gary, some people really are stupid...you got that right.

I haven't missed any news about Mexican drug cartels shooting up the place. I also know it has nothing to do with illegal immigration. They are criminals doing criminal acts which is what criminals do. The Arizona law has no bearing on this, cannot have a bearing on this and any implication that it could is stupid.

I am not worried about TB, you? How does the Arizona law affect the rates of TB and how does it prevent TB from being transmitted?

In order to "support" a stupid law, people are saying all sorts of stupid things. Next it will be credited with growing hair on bald men and as a cure for erectile dysfunction. The new Arizona law has no possibility of reducing drug related violence or disease and was not intended for that.

As Mox correctly points out, anyone asked for ID can simply say they are a citizen. I would, and unless I have just returned from canada or am on my way there, I will not have my passport to prove it. Arrest me? I do not think so.

Why are you against a law to punish people that hire illegals to increase their profits at the expense and other humans and Americans?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I forgot to add one thing.

I surely hope that your perfect life in your perfect world is always perfect, because with your attitude if you ever find yourself in a very difficult situation (like the "slaves" you swear to care about) you are going to end up eating a lot of fecal matter, because you will never accept working conditions that do not provide all the protections and benefits that YOU "deserve."

From Wikipedia:

Slavery is a form of forced labor in which people are considered to be the property of others. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand wages.

I do not see how slavery applies to those people when nobody is forcing them to work against their will. Nobody has purchased them and they can leave and return to their countries whenever they please. If I had to do it to better my own situation, I would find a way too.

Ckuekess...one can definitely say you chose a good name...it does not matter what I think, what I will tolerate or what any one else chooses to tolerate. Employing illegals is a violation of dozens of our laws, not the least of which is immigration law. You are OK with that? Would you be OK with that for your immigrant wife for whom you just went through the process of getting a green card?

In case you hadn't caught the drift, or ignored it, illegal immigrants are not really slaves by the wikipedia definition. Big surprise. You got me there, point for Clueless, but in so doing proved you are incable of abstract thought and analogous comparison. Great job, thanks. The comparison is made because at the rate most illegals are paid it would be more expensive for the US businesses exploiting them to own them as slaves. They are todays replacement for slaves, they are the underclass which has replaced the slaves, then the segregated and exploited black people. The segregated and exploited black people became more trouble than they were worth in the 60s and we relegated them to the ghetto and welfare to keep them out of regular society, like we did to the Indians. We destroyed their education and made sure they will never get really good jobs and be dependent forever on the government. We replaced them with changes to the immigration law made in 1965 (hmmm, coincidental to the civil rights act) and the flood of illegals began.

I would like for you to explain WHY you would be against enforcing our labor laws, wage and hour standards, and workplace safety regulations. Is it really OK with you that people are put in unsafe working conditions, underpaid, overworked and that American companies pocket huge sums of money on the backs of other people, do not pay into the SS system or medicare. This is all OK with you? Employers thumb their nose at all our laws and it is OK by you? YOU require YOUR employer to pay you all these things, yet you accept that your competitor may not be and may be underpricing his work and competing unfairly which can cause you to lose your job? This is OK by you?

I mean if you just wish to continue to be stupid, I have no problem with that, just say so. I support your right to choose.

[mox 298]

What a strange day. I agree roughly 95% with Gary on a political issue, and I wasn't able to conclusively debunk a religious claim. I think I'll go have a lie down.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Actually that's not true in most cases. Most illegals from Central and South America pay a broker to get them across the border. Sometimes they save up for years. Actually getting across is exhausting and highly dangerous. Getting back entails the same problems. You can't just up and decide you're going to leave, it takes time, money, connections, and the willingness to expose yourself to a high level of risk. And while you could just turn yourself in to the Feds, there's no guarantee that you won't spend months or years in jail awaiting exportation. In the meantime, you're not making any money for your family back home.

Employers make it difficult to just pick up and leave also. They withhold wages, they spread disinformation, they even use physical threats. The world of illegal immigration is pretty dark and seedy. It's not as easy to just pick up and leave, even if they wanted to. You're trying to make this a simple black and white issue, but it's not.

The world of illegal imigration is horribly dark and seedy, though not for the 2 illegal immigrants Clueless knows, so it must be the same for all he figures.

Quite often, illegal immigrants are very well trapped in their situation and it is very difficult to leave, you are correct Mox. Particularly if they have brought their families here. The truth is, an employer of illegals can do just about anything, including physical harm, and there is nothing the illegals can do and no one they can report to. It is like doing business with a loan shark and then wanting to complain about the high interest rates. There is very good reason they call the importers "Coyotes".

But all of this really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if the illegal thinks it is a better life. It doesn't matter if he gets lucky and lands a job with a fair employer (how likely is that with people that are only trying to save money and avoid benefits for their employees by breaking the law?) We cannot allow a situation to exist in this country that lowers the very high standard we have worked for for more than 100 years. I am appalled that the politicians that are the strongest champions of labor protection laws, are also the ones that look the other way for the employers that violate all the laws they pass.

C'mon, Pelosi and Reid push heavily for higher minimum wage, GET a higher minimum wage passed, and then want to look away while employers hire illegals for $3 per hour. #######!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

What a strange day. I agree roughly 95% with Gary on a political issue, and I wasn't able to conclusively debunk a religious claim. I think I'll go have a lie down.

What's the 5% you disagree with????

I gave up on religious stuff years ago, I have no time for it and the religious faithful will argue in circles and finally say "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" How do you argue with logic like that? I just spend more time skeet shooting. PULL!

But I will give you credit Mox for knowing alot about the religious fairy tales, you obviously spent more time on it than I ever would.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

Ckuekess...one can definitely say you chose a good name...it does not matter what I think, what I will tolerate or what any one else chooses to tolerate. Employing illegals is a violation of dozens of our laws, not the least of which is immigration law. You are OK with that? Would you be OK with that for your immigrant wife for whom you just went through the process of getting a green card?

In case you hadn't caught the drift, or ignored it, illegal immigrants are not really slaves by the wikipedia definition. Big surprise. You got me there, point for Clueless, but in so doing proved you are incable of abstract thought and analogous comparison. Great job, thanks. The comparison is made because at the rate most illegals are paid it would be more expensive for the US businesses exploiting them to own them as slaves. They are todays replacement for slaves, they are the underclass which has replaced the slaves, then the segregated and exploited black people. The segregated and exploited black people became more trouble than they were worth in the 60s and we relegated them to the ghetto and welfare to keep them out of regular society, like we did to the Indians. We destroyed their education and made sure they will never get really good jobs and be dependent forever on the government. We replaced them with changes to the immigration law made in 1965 (hmmm, coincidental to the civil rights act) and the flood of illegals began.

I would like for you to explain WHY you would be against enforcing our labor laws, wage and hour standards, and workplace safety regulations. Is it really OK with you that people are put in unsafe working conditions, underpaid, overworked and that American companies pocket huge sums of money on the backs of other people, do not pay into the SS system or medicare. This is all OK with you? Employers thumb their nose at all our laws and it is OK by you? YOU require YOUR employer to pay you all these things, yet you accept that your competitor may not be and may be underpricing his work and competing unfairly which can cause you to lose your job? This is OK by you?

I mean if you just wish to continue to be stupid, I have no problem with that, just say so. I support your right to choose.

Whoever uses insults to put down an adversary has no argument to stand on.

I am stupid, you are smarter than Einstein, and the world is flat. Go figure!

I am glad you are not my friend and I don't have to deal with you on a daily basis. Now I understand why ALL my friends are foreign nationals (some of them illegals, but I live and let live).

[clueless_in_usa 8]

What's the 5% you disagree with????

I gave up on religious stuff years ago, I have no time for it and the religious faithful will argue in circles and finally say "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" How do you argue with logic like that? I just spend more time skeet shooting. PULL!

But I will give you credit Mox for knowing alot about the religious fairy tales, you obviously spent more time on it than I ever would.

Gary, THIS GUY reminds me of you.

We need more people like you two in this country. Life will be a lot better in USA if we were all like you two.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Whoever uses insults to put down an adversary has no argument to stand on.

I am stupid, you are smarter than Einstein, and the world is flat. Go figure!

I am glad you are not my friend and I don't have to deal with you on a daily basis. Now I understand why ALL my friends are foreign nationals (some of them illegals, but I live and let live).

Most of your posts have consisted of insults, so I will consider the source. My posts have detailed many arguments and reasons for my position. Yours have detailed none. Except why I am not a good candidate for President or Secretary of State. Now there is a post that goes right to the point. You still cannot explain how it is that you are OK with your illegal immigrant "friends" being exploited and underpaid so that greedy American business owners can increase their profits and reduce their trouble in paperwork. Some friend you turned out to be.

You have nothing to add to the conversation and I will not waste my time any further answering 4th grade level insults. I mean, what IS your position? Open the borders, look the other way as people are exploited because they "want it"? Or what, exactly? It seems your point is to argue with Gary on whatever position I take and take none of your own. It really makes you look foolish and incapable of thought just to continue to argue about....nothing.

[mox 298]

We need more people like you two in this country. Life will be a lot better in USA if we were all like you two.

Dammit, looks like I'm still stuck in Groundhog Day.

[visaveteran 1]

Gary, you've been raising the ugly tone and general nastiness on this discussion as if you have a personal stake in this matter. That's funny from a guy who lives far way from the Mexican borders in Vermont.

One of the key reasons we have border guards is to stop illegal drugs from entering the US. Drug smugglers don't just step across the border and leave their stashes. They must bring them to the cities like Tucson and Phoenix. When one drug group steps into the territory of another group, the murders and kidnappings start. Not on he border, but in the big cities. And then there's the gangs...some involved in drugs, some just good ole mean and nasty violent gangs. They too fight over territories. Good and innocent people get caught in the cross fire. These illegal people are heavily armed killers. In Tucson they're out of control. And, of course, there's other crimes like stealing and petty crimes that start to add up among illegals who need money and will do anything to get it.

Yet you blow air about the evil American businesses. You're silly rant on "slavery" is bull. People would come into the US even without jobs. Why? Because of our generous welfare system. Our free schools. Our free medical care (for illegals anyway). Our sanctuary cities. All the goodies and freebies that await them. Many illegals don't even need a job to live here. They're sucking the system dry. Look at California...bankrupt.

And you want to blame big business. How about blaming those people (including politicians and famous individuals) who hire illegal nannies, gardeners, and maids? All the lazy SOBs who won't cut their own grass or clean their own car or home? Or even attempt to raise their own kids.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Gary, THIS GUY reminds me of you.

We need more people like you two in this country. Life will be a lot better in USA if we were all like you two.

Then you really haven't been paying attention, or are incapable of it. I have never advocated English only for anything and I am quite satisfied with our not having an "official" langauge. I have lived too many places with "official languages" and it ONLY causes problems. Alabama is a horribly backward state, I lived there while doing consulting work after Katrina (depsite what you may have heard, Alabama and Mississippi took the brunt of that storm) They banned the ownership and sale of vibrators and other sex toys and one of the reasons was to prevent "dueling" WHAT?????????????!!!!!!!!!! (don't believe it? Google "sex toys Alabama") They make the Arizona legislature look like geniuses by comparison. I still cannot get my head around the thought of elected adults in Montgomery having meetings to decide which items made of plastic should be banned because they are shaped sort of like a #######!!!!!!!!! Then voting on it, and an elected Governor signed the f*cking law!!!! They all have to be out of their minds! Like Alabama doesn't have any other problems? They have to ban sex toys to keep their population safe from dueling? DUELING???? What, dueling with dildos at 20 paces???? Are they kidding me? They are joking right? But thank God you can walk down a dark street on the west end of Mobile and not worry about some chick getting herself off with her joystick! I know it meant a lot for my peace of mind. Alabama is the reason I will never again live in a RED STATE. You want live and let live? Me too. That's a BIG reason why I live where I do.

Alla studied her drivers test information in Russian. Vermont offers drivers ed information in many languages over the counter and in ANY language by special order. Fine with me. Within 50 miles of my home French speaking people outnumber English speaking people 10 to 1. The nearest city to my home is Montreal and you will look long and hard to find an English printed sign in that city and if you do the English will be in small print under the French.

My point is to end the mistreatment of immigrants, legal or illegal. I am married to an immigrant, are you serious? My immigrant wife works as a contracted model in Boston and Montreal and interpreter for the state of Vermont, the USCIS, the CBP and the local university hospital and you would think I am an "English only guy" She gets $30 per hour for interpretation, $500 for a half day modeling call...not $3 per hour. She works legally and provides a service and is treated respectfully because if they don't she can file a complaint of harassment, just like you and me. I would not tolerate her working under any other condition, would you let someone exploit or mis-treat your wife the way you look the other way when they mis-treat and underpay your "friends"?

You truly are "Clueless"

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Gary, you've been raising the ugly tone and general nastiness on this discussion as if you have a personal stake in this matter. That's funny from a guy who lives far way from the Mexican borders in Vermont.

One of the key reasons we have border guards is to stop illegal drugs from entering the US. Drug smugglers don't just step across the border and leave their stashes. They must bring them to the cities like Tucson and Phoenix. When one drug group steps into the territory of another group, the murders and kidnappings start. Not on he border, but in the big cities. And then there's the gangs...some involved in drugs, some just good ole mean and nasty violent gangs. They too fight over territories. Good and innocent people get caught in the cross fire. These illegal people are heavily armed killers. In Tucson they're out of control. And, of course, there's other crimes like stealing and petty crimes that start to add up among illegals who need money and will do anything to get it.

Yet you blow air about the evil American businesses. You're silly rant on "slavery" is bull. People would come into the US even without jobs. Why? Because of our generous welfare system. Our free schools. Our free medical care (for illegals anyway). Our sanctuary cities. All the goodies and freebies that await them. Many illegals don't even need a job to live here. They're sucking the system dry. Look at California...bankrupt.

And you want to blame big business. How about blaming those people (including politicians and famous individuals) who hire illegal nannies, gardeners, and maids? All the lazy SOBs who won't cut their own grass or clean their own car or home? Or even attempt to raise their own kids.

I blame all of them. If you will stop and read what I said. ANY person hiring an illegal should be taxed $500,000 per day per illegal worker. That means you hire an illegal nanny...you lose your home. I do not blame "big business" and never used that word. I blame exploiters and abusers of illegals, ALL. Hire an illegal to mow your lawn...lose your house. Period. Hire an illegal and lose any opportunity to hold or run for elected office...fine with me. So you are with me, right?

If you would read what I wrote, I also have suggested that people be required to present proof of legal presence for medical care,(except life saving care) any government benefit and education. Basically, you get NOTHING unless you prove legal presence in the country. I would even like to see that extended to property rentals but we would need to be careful to differentiate for hotels and resorts, then again a tourist is legally "present" so it may not be a problem. My whole idea is to eliminate ANY reason to be here unless you do so legally...and this is to protect the illegals from abuse and exploitation. We cannot be luring people here with all these goodies and then exploiting them for profit. We have to end the lures, end the goodies, this will end the economic reason for being here and they will leave and not come back. we will not have to check their ID or deport them. They will save their last money and pay someone to take them back. And what is your problem with this? Why do you want them to stay and be exploited? why do you want them to continue to come and be abused? You make no sense.

I live in a border area and drug smuggling is a huge problem here, though the Quebecois drug smugglers are not so inclined to morbid violence, but it is a huge area ffor smuggling drugs and not just the good hydroponic Canadian pot either. The Arizona law has nothing to do with drug smuggling and you still have not said how being able to ask for someones green card will affect drug smugglers or TB rates. Please do so or get off the irrelevent subject.

[visaveteran 1]

There is a reason your wife and mine had to be screened for various diseases including TB before getting a visa. We don't want to allow people into the US with serious illness that could harm the general population. When people enter illegally, they obviously are not screened. There is a problem with TB among Hispanics. If we ask for green cards, we can send home illegals who might be spreading disease. Is that so hard to grasp? Or are you OK letting anyone with communicable diseases into the US?

If you follow the Arizona story, you would know a well known and beloved rancher was recently murdered on his own property by a suspected drug runner. This touched off a firestorm of protest concerning illegals in the state. Shortly thereafter, we have the new law. Of course, other considerations came into play, but Arizona citizens are fed up with drug violence stemming from illegals.

So, tell me how that's irrelevant?

BTW, as an aside, my travel doctor strongly advised me to get tested for TB after visiting Russia.

[mox 298]

Gary, you've been raising the ugly tone and general nastiness on this discussion as if you have a personal stake in this matter. That's funny from a guy who lives far way from the Mexican borders in Vermont.

Not a bad point, actually. Although I think it's unfair to dismiss anybody's opinion simply because they don't have a direct interest. Shall I go searching through the archives to find your opinions about events in a geographic region which don't impact you directly? Maybe some strongly held opinions about certain Eastern European countries for example?

Yet you blow air about the evil American businesses. You're silly rant on "slavery" is bull. People would come into the US even without jobs. Why? Because of our generous welfare system. Our free schools. Our free medical care (for illegals anyway). Our sanctuary cities. All the goodies and freebies that await them. Many illegals don't even need a job to live here. They're sucking the system dry. Look at California...bankrupt.

You're pretty out of touch on this subject. If you've never previously held a job in the US, it's nigh impossible to collect welfare unless you're disabled. And those on welfare have a lifetime limit of benefits, which would allow your welfare queens to suck the system dry for roughly a year before being kicked off the rolls. It's damn near impossible to live in this country anymore without a job, legal or not. The fact is that the *primary* reason illegals come here is for work. If you take that away, you stem the flow of illegals by magnitudes.

And you want to blame big business. How about blaming those people (including politicians and famous individuals) who hire illegal nannies, gardeners, and maids? All the lazy SOBs who won't cut their own grass or clean their own car or home? Or even attempt to raise their own kids.

Which I think is exactly Gary's point. The problem isn't just with big agriculture and the meat packing plants. It goes all the way down to Senator Scumsucker who hires a Guatamalen nanny because wifey is so strung out on valium that she simply cannot manage her 1.5 rich entitled brats by herself.

[visaveteran 1]

Well, Mox, if Gary's wife came from Arizona, I'd accept his enthusiastic rants more readily.

If you look at areas with heavy Hispanic populations, look closely at county and city special programs for immigrants (aka, illegals). I happen to live in such an area and the list of special goodies is long...including special county and city government job placements. They do better than veterans.

I agree with much of Gary's comments about business being the culprit but, frankly, if we wait to crack down on businesses using or exploiting illegals, we'll have another 20 million illegals before anything is ever done. I think most of us have accepted this fact. We have to find other ways to stem the tide. But when you can't even enforce laws already on the books for fear of boycotts and upheaval, it's a grim picture. And there is the liberals hidden agenda around illegals...control of voting and gaining a large voting block. For liberals on illegals...the more the merrier. That's why illegals can actually vote. Because the liberals cry profiling or discrimination if states require voting IDs. I'm almost to the point where I'm going to learn Spanish...maybe I can get some goodies.