If you have an accent

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Some might say it's for Citizens

Then they would be wrong.

The entire principal of our constitution and bill of rights is that they are rights held by ALL people, regardless of which country they live in or are from. We cannot force all countries around the world to recognize this, but we have gone to war numerous times trying to and sanctioned countries coutless times exactly for this (at least that is the story)

An illegal alien in this country, even if he is an axe murderer, has a 4th amendment right, and a first amendment right and all the others. Rights are for PEOPLE, not for "citizens". Please do not tell me you think your wife or mine does not have constitutional rights. I am sure you do not think that.

The irony, no the disgusting racist hypocrisy, comes in when racists USE those rights to promote racism. "You cannot check him for a green card and violate his fourth amendment right, but we can employ him in inhumane conditions, underpay him and make profits from abusing him!" There is no more disgusting a form of racism. It is far worse than the "We NEED to help them with welfare because they CAN'T do it on their own" type of racism of low expectations. This is the "I need them for MY benefit so leave them alone to do my dirty work" type.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Just a reminder of who we are talking about here.

You are an American? You think criminals are not due constitutional rights?

The new level of stupidity this issue brings is unreal. Both sides are anxious to put forth totally ridiculous arguments in order to maintain the institution of slavery. It is so blantantly obvious and people doing it look so blantantly racist to anyone with a functioning brain cell.

We are talking about, at least I am, (and it was my comment you edited, please be original and write your own, OK?) the criminals that employ slave labor in this country in order to circumvent the safeguards we have put in place over the last 125 years to protect the safety and dignity of human beings. What are YOU talking about? You want to punish the slaves? Are you serious?

I believe that the criminals employing slave labor should be taxed to a level that causes their business property to be confiscated to pay taxes. After due process of course, they have rights, you know. I believe that if you hire an illegal to cut your lawn, you should be taxed $500,000 and forced to sell your home to pay it. I bet you would not hire an illegal to cut your lawn. Then again, you may be stupid enough to do that but by far most people would not.

Mox knows better, he is from California. The entire state would collapse without slave labor. They are as dependent on slaves now as Alabama was in 1855. Mox doesn't want slavery to end because he really doesn't give a sh*t about brown people and only needs them to care for his wants, needs and desires. They are a political football being kicked around for the gain of various politicians and not one serious proposal has been put forth to end the "problem".

People that advance the "rights" of slaves, simply want them left alone to BE slaves. Allow the status quo to continue. Keep our mouths shut and look the other way while they are abused, exploited and shipped like cattle across our borders and auctioned off in Home Depot parking lots like so many draft animals. Disgusting racism.

Then the other side, the side you support, wants to treat the slaves like criminals! Why? are they getting a little uppity for you? You want to oppress them MORE so they will keep quiet? Heck, I imagine you could CANE the slaves in Arizona right now and they wouldn't complian. Is that what you want? You want to be able to abuse them and exploit them MORE so you make laws "against them" stricter?

NONE of these laws will stop the "problem" because none of the people making laws see it as a "problem" Get a f*cking clue!

The unlawful entry into this country of millions of people (of ALL skin colors) is a calculated re-supply of low cost, regulation exempt labor for business, a source of dependent constituents for politicians, a source of income for politicians in their home country and a means to cheap "stuff" for the rest of us. That is all.

It has nothing to do with drugs, crime, etc. Those are separate issues handled by sepoarate laws. slave laborers are not the same as drug dealers. They are not addressed by the same laws.

I am not a rocket scientist, this is not rocket science. You see it, you know it as well as I do. There are a few racist advocates that try to croak out an objection to the logic of facts...Clueless is one of them. The rest leave the room when the elephant is pointed out and drop the subject before they embarrass themselves further. But as I sdaid, this topic exposes a stupidity that sinks to new low levels. Some people are "stuck on stupid" when it comes to this topic.

Not a single "conservative" talk radio host has put forth the facts. Not a single "undocumented advocate" group has put forth the facts. Not a single politician, community organizer or legislator. None. Is it not obvious to them that employers thumb their nose at our laws by hiring slaves?

Why doesn't Limbaugh or Beck, Ingraham or Hannity put forth the cause of human rights? Because they don't care!! Why doesn't Obama or Pelosi, Boxer or Kerry notice that illegals are not being paid minimum wage and are not being protected from injury, abuse, even sexual harassment? Because they don't care!!!! They ALL need the slaves, they all WANT the slaves. But slaves don't vote, so they need to "do something" to appeal to their racist voting base and do so depending on which type of racist you are and which type of racist votes for them.

Instead we have Presidential debates where the candidates argue whether or not slaves should get drivers licenses!!!!! #######!!!!! Why, so they can drive to their slave jobs? well, at least if you are going to advocate that you could point out that many are hauled to work like cattle in stake trucks, risking their lives in auto accidents and against highway safety rules that no one cares about if the human cargo is brown (and dammit, we shouldn't even stop a truck full of brown people in Arizona because they have a right to be hauled around like cattle to unsafe jobs for $3 per hour!!!!!! Stopping them would be "racial profiling" and we cannot do that!)

Good grief

[jimnlena 8]

For somebody who's thrown fits in the past for people putting words in their mouth, you sure are putting a lot of words in my mouth. And the funny thing is that the argument you're making (illegal immigration "slavery" and safety issues) is the same argument I've made in the past, only to be lambasted as a whiney freedom-hating liberal.

I said I was opposed to the Arizona law, not protecting our borders.

But do not forget "locking the gate after the cows get out" does not do much good. Unless you have a way of returning the cows to the pasture.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

But do not forget "locking the gate after the cows get out" does not do much good. Unless you have a way of returning the cows to the pasture.

They are humans, not cows. But even cows know which pasture the food is in. Put the food back in the proper pasture and the cows go there all by themselves, just don't build a FENCE to keep them from going back where they belong.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

I prefer not to think of human beings in terms of cattle, but as I've said before, and as Gary now champions, illegal immigrants are only a symptom to the bigger problem of US citizens giving illegal immigrants a reason to cross. You cut off the supply of illegal jobs and you've solved most of the illegal immigration problem.

All that happens when you throw the Constitution out, is that you weaken the Constitution for everyone. The Arizona law is just one step closer to the government being able to detain anybody at anytime for any reason.

I haven't championed the arizona law. It is as BS and worthless as any of the others. It is a conservative racist law that is designed to push the slaves farther into the shadows so they can be abused MORE and fear MORE being caught.

It is as bad as the California, San Francisco rule stating it is a sanctuary city...come here and be abused, we will look the other way. Boycotting "Arizona" (I am not sure how you boycott a "state" since states don't make anything, they are as unproductive as any other branch of government and you only punish people, not states)

NONE of these laws are designed to do ANYthing except appeal to a particular brqnd of racist that lives within that jurisdiction and give those racists the impression that the "government", ANY government, is "doing something" It is the very reason I do not want the government handling my health care....they really don;t DO anything, they only pretend to look like they do something.

OUR constitutional rights should be protected and if this law is not unconstitutional, we are ALL in a heap of trouble. Be that as it may, the "problem" needs to be addressed with real answers

[visaveteran 0]

Liberals always site the constitution when it suites them. It's fine to force me to buy private health insurance but you better dare don't ask me for ID that I'm a legal citizen.

If we refuse to enforce immigration laws. let's just open up the borders and let everyone in. I mean, to hear the bleeding heart liberals, only poor, hard working people come here...and their all in perfect health. Don't worry about TB or anything. And try to not bring up drug traffic, kidnapping and murders. That's just racist behavior.

As far as boycotting Arizona, I'd say they're better off accepting that burden than paying for all the free services to illegals. Probably a wash.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

For somebody who's thrown fits in the past for people putting words in their mouth, you sure are putting a lot of words in my mouth. And the funny thing is that the argument you're making (illegal immigration "slavery" and safety issues) is the same argument I've made in the past, only to be lambasted as a whiney freedom-hating liberal.

I said I was opposed to the Arizona law, not protecting our borders.

Then stick to your guns Mox. (Speaking of which, your Ruger is made in Prescott, Arizona) Why would you back down from what is right?

How is it freedom hating to want people to earn a minimum wage? Have workman's comp? Not being subject to working 60-70-80 hours per week without overtime? How is it freedom hating to want construction workers to be protected with equipment and clothing and procedures? Is somene against hard-hats and safety harnesses? do they hate handrails and leather gloves? Is there a "freedom loving conservative" here that wants that? Raise your hand and prepare to be lambasted. By allowing some employers to employ illegals, at wage rates that are less than the cost of "maintaining" a slave, what are we doing? People, immigrants, such as your wife and mine, should be able to come here and present a Green card and be treated fairly, paid fairly, not abused and exploited. They should be FREE to contact authorities and report abuses of our labor laws. They should not be lured here and then exploited. I haven't seen a single poster here suggest I am a liberal for my position (not sure about Clueless, it isn't clear WHAT he is trying to say, so we will pass on that)

The ONLY reason illegals are here is for MONEY. The ONLY reason they are employed is for MONEY. Employers do NOT employ illegal because they want to be fair and equitable and because illegals have some outstanding talent that is in high demand. Most of them can't spell "roofer" but this week they are one! They employ illegals in order to take advantage of them and exploit them for MONEY as much as they possibly can. They are avoiding the laws WE passed and getting away with it, and endangering humans while they do it. And people stand by and watch because they are illegals and their skin is darker than yours and mine. There is no way they would allow their child or spouse to be treated this way. Mox, c'mon! Your wife gets a job, goes to work 60 hours a week for 2 weeks and brings home a paycheck for $200...and that would be OK with you? and you find out they deducted for food and water they "gave her" that she didn't want or didn't drink because the water was in a dirty 5 gallon pail and the food was dirty and had mold on it. You think this doesn't happen to illegals? Then she tells you how she works in a real noisy factory and her ears are ringing because they have no hearing protecting and her hands are cut from cleaning chickens with no gloves. You are OK with this? Then she says they do not have separate toilets for women and the men hang around and try to check out the women dropping their pants to use the toilet. Fine with you, right? Fine with the "freedom loving conservatives"? No way. You wouldn't tolerate it and neither should anyone else.

Amnesty? Won't work. the illegals cannot compete for minimum wage with US citizens. Who would you hire? The ONLY reason the US employers will tolerate the accomodations they must make for illegal workers (language barriers, lack of productivity by lack of skills, no reliable transportation, etc.) is because they are cheap. If you raise the cost of "owning slaves" there is no incentive to own slaves. The ones you give amnesty to will immediately be unemployed and be replaced by the next wave of slaves to replace them. You simply have to end the economic reason for the existance of the practice. The government knows exactly how to do that.

To use the animal analogy (and no, I do not think they are animals as I think you well know) Imagine that you leave the top off your trash can and the raccoons come and turn over the cans and make a big mess. Damn raccoons! So you clean it up and set a trap for that fat raccoon. You catch him and deport him to the nearest forest and take him back deep in the forest where he belongs. But you leave the top off the trash can. Next day....uh huh, you know where this goes. So you catch the next raccoon and decide you will just feed him to keep him out of the trash can. Now you put out dog food for him every night but you leave the top off the trash can...uh huh. You mean there is more than ONE raccoon???????? CLOSE THE LID AND LOCK IT DOWN! Putting a fence around your yard and leaving the top off the trash can will NOT WORK. We do not need to fight the raccoons or bother the raccoons or trap the raccoons and deport them to the forest. We do not need to be accused of being "anti-raccoon" We only need to close the trash can!

[visaveteran 0]

Another word of advice to Arizona residents: you are under no legal requirement at all to provide any kind of identification when the police ask for it. You are within your constitutional rights to refuse to provide documentation that show your immigration status or anything else. Whether you are legal or illegal, practice that right. You cannot be arrested for refusing to provide identification. And if you provide, for example, a drivers license, you are under no further obligation to provide any other kind of identification, and it would be illegal for a police officer to arrest you on this basis. Know your rights, especially now that your state has begun the journey of turning into a police state.

If this is true, what's all the fuss about?

According to one news source, the law allows the following:

The new law, which was signed by the Governor of Arizona on Friday, requires that all immigrants carry documentation verifying their immigration status. It also stipulates that police officers have the authority to ask to see the information from any individual that is deemed “suspicious” or when there is “reasonable suspicion” that the person may not be legally in the country.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Liberals always site the constitution when it suites them. It's fine to force me to buy private health insurance but you better dare don't ask me for ID that I'm a legal citizen.

If we refuse to enforce immigration laws. let's just open up the borders and let everyone in. I mean, to hear the bleeding heart liberals, only poor, hard working people come here...and their all in perfect health. Don't worry about TB or anything. And try to not bring up drug traffic, kidnapping and murders. That's just racist behavior.

As far as boycotting Arizona, I'd say they're better off accepting that burden than paying for all the free services to illegals. Probably a wash.

Please go argue for someone else. This has nothing to do with drug smugglers unless, for some reason, you are OK with US citizen drug smugglers. what a stupid argument. But, as I said, this issue brings about new levels of stupidity. If we do not have a problem in this country with TB, and we do not, with the 12 million or so illegal immigrants we already have, what are the odds it is going to be a problem next week? Stop with the BS, it is so transparently phony.

I will quote the constitution every time and it suits my argument every time because I believe in people's rights, even criminals have rights. I have no problem with that. What rights would you take away and from whom? There is no reason to take away rights or argue if illegals should be here. Cut off the use of them for cheap labor to avoid our laws and they will be gone. Whay would you oppose that? Because they are gone for the wrong reason? #######??????? Do you care why they leave?

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Starting to see why it might be unconstitutional?

For that matter, it might even be unenforceable:

Cop: Let me see your immigration documents.

Dark-skinned-person: I'm a US citizen.

Cop: Errrrr...

Yep, it is exactly as stupid as all the other BS laws they pass. I carry nothing with me that identifies me as a CITIZEN, a drivers license does not do so and will not admit me back into the USA when I go to Canada several times a week. Drivers licenses are not required by law.

Mox, the Arizona law, like other laws addressed to illegal immigration is not designed to be effective or make a difference on how many illegals come into the USA. It cannot and will not and no one with a brain could even imagine it would. It is designed to SCARE illegals further to make sure they do not report abuse so they can be abused further, taken advantage of further, drive them further underground and shut them up. The slaves were getting just a bit too uppity and needed to be reminded exactly who is boss around here! Then work them harder and make them more productive and help to end the recession by putting more money in the slave-owners pocket

The liberal version is simply to invite more to their part of the world, lure them with promises of "sanctuary" and put them back on the roof and back in the fields where they came from! Then ask for more federal government funds to care for their "needs".

[visaveteran 0]

I guess you missed all the news about the Mexican drug cartels shooting up border towns, killing US cops and bystanders.

As for TB in the USA, here's the deal:

Among U.S.-born persons, the number and rate of TB cases continuedto decline in 2006. The U.S.-born TB rate was 2.3 per 100,000population (5,924 or 43.3% of all cases with known origin ofbirth), representing a 7.0% decline in rate since 2005 and a68.6% decline since 1993. Among foreign-born persons, the number of TB cases increasedin 2006. As the rateof decline in TB cases among foreign-born persons lagged behindthe decline in TB cases among U.S.-born persons, the foreign-bornto U.S.-born rate ratio increased 7.0%, from 8.9 in 2005 to9.5 in 2006. In 2006, approximately half (55.6%) of TB casesamong foreign-born persons were reported in persons from fivecountries: Mexico (1,912), the Philippines (856), Vietnam (630),India (540), and China (376).

In 2006, for the third consecutive year, more TB cases werereported among Hispanics than any other racial/ethnic population.Among persons with TB whose country of birth was known, 95.6%(3,126 of 3,269) of Asians, 74.7% (3,024 of 4,050) of Hispanics,29.9% (1,110 of 3,712) of blacks, and 17.8% (427 of 2,404) ofwhites were foreign born. From 2005 to 2006, TB rates declinedfor all racial/ethnic minorities except American Indians/AlaskaNatives and Native Hawaiians or Other Pacific Islanders.

Yes, Gary, some people really are stupid...you got that right.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

I am also a TRUE liberal (libertarian) so while I undewrstand your frustration, it is not our governments place to dictate policy to Mexico and not all illegal aliens are Mexican. Also it is not our government's policy to dictate to Dodge (well, maybe it is now, but it shouldn;t be)

The government can get any of those companies to move back tomorrow by passing the FAIR TAX. The government can get ALL the illegal aliens to go home tomorrow by taxing the holy living sh*t out of any business that hires one and seizing their proerty to cover the tax debt.

The politicians in Mexico (since you mention it) need illegals also. Slavery is, and always has been, good for both sides of the slave supply chain. Mexico has, at any given moment, nearly 10% of its citizens in the USA, this is a huge relief valve for the Mexican government. Also, the sale of its citizens as slaves to the USA provides the largest part of their foreign income (except possibly for drug smuggling which isn't nearly so well documented) The primary source of foreign trade for Mexico is as a pimp for its citizens. You would be asking them to cut off their biggest industry...slave auctioning. It will never happen. Just as Africans sold their fellow Africans into slavery, the Mexican government will sell its citizens into slavery. Nothing new under the sun. The widespread use of Africans as slaves did NOT end because of some moral compunction originating in Africa. Mexico will do nothing to end the exploitation of Mecians, they get too much money from it.

This whole problem is about MONEY. It all goes away when there is no MONEY reason for it to exist.

The US government has the ability to end this tomorrow, they do not need to askl anyone, they do not need to be accused of racism, they do not need to invade anyones rights, they do not need a fence, a virtual fence or anything else, They simply need to make it economically impossible to employ slaves. If employers wish to exploit humans, abuse them, take awy all the rights we fought for, turn back 125 years of labor laws...then we need to tax them right out of business.

I was wrong, Gary. You should not be the president of the USA. There is a better job for you: Secretary of State!

Who needs Ms. Clinton when we have one of the greatest minds in Vermont?

You will do a hell of a job in foreign relations. It will be a great (dis) service to your country.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

I was wrong, Gary. You should not be the president of the USA. There is a better job for you: Secretary of State!

Who needs Ms. Clinton when we have one of the greatest minds in Vermont?

You will do a hell of a job in foreign relations. It will be a great (dis) service to your country.

I forgot to add one thing.

I surely hope that your perfect life in your perfect world is always perfect, because with your attitude if you ever find yourself in a very difficult situation (like the "slaves" you swear to care about) you are going to end up eating a lot of fecal matter, because you will never accept working conditions that do not provide all the protections and benefits that YOU "deserve."

From Wikipedia:

Slavery is a form of forced labor in which people are considered to be the property of others. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand wages.

I do not see how slavery applies to those people when nobody is forcing them to work against their will. Nobody has purchased them and they can leave and return to their countries whenever they please. If I had to do it to better my own situation, I would find a way too.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

I guess you missed all the news about the Mexican drug cartels shooting up border towns, killing US cops and bystanders.

As for TB in the USA, here's the deal:

Among U.S.-born persons, the number and rate of TB cases continuedto decline in 2006. The U.S.-born TB rate was 2.3 per 100,000population (5,924 or 43.3% of all cases with known origin ofbirth), representing a 7.0% decline in rate since 2005 and a68.6% decline since 1993. Among foreign-born persons, the number of TB cases increasedin 2006. As the rateof decline in TB cases among foreign-born persons lagged behindthe decline in TB cases among U.S.-born persons, the foreign-bornto U.S.-born rate ratio increased 7.0%, from 8.9 in 2005 to9.5 in 2006. In 2006, approximately half (55.6%) of TB casesamong foreign-born persons were reported in persons from fivecountries: Mexico (1,912), the Philippines (856), Vietnam (630),India (540), and China (376).

In 2006, for the third consecutive year, more TB cases werereported among Hispanics than any other racial/ethnic population.Among persons with TB whose country of birth was known, 95.6%(3,126 of 3,269) of Asians, 74.7% (3,024 of 4,050) of Hispanics,29.9% (1,110 of 3,712) of blacks, and 17.8% (427 of 2,404) ofwhites were foreign born. From 2005 to 2006, TB rates declinedfor all racial/ethnic minorities except American Indians/AlaskaNatives and Native Hawaiians or Other Pacific Islanders.

Yes, Gary, some people really are stupid...you got that right.

I haven't missed any news about Mexican drug cartels shooting up the place. I also know it has nothing to do with illegal immigration. They are criminals doing criminal acts which is what criminals do. The Arizona law has no bearing on this, cannot have a bearing on this and any implication that it could is stupid.

I am not worried about TB, you? How does the Arizona law affect the rates of TB and how does it prevent TB from being transmitted?

In order to "support" a stupid law, people are saying all sorts of stupid things. Next it will be credited with growing hair on bald men and as a cure for erectile dysfunction. The new Arizona law has no possibility of reducing drug related violence or disease and was not intended for that.

As Mox correctly points out, anyone asked for ID can simply say they are a citizen. I would, and unless I have just returned from canada or am on my way there, I will not have my passport to prove it. Arrest me? I do not think so.

Why are you against a law to punish people that hire illegals to increase their profits at the expense and other humans and Americans?

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

I forgot to add one thing.

I surely hope that your perfect life in your perfect world is always perfect, because with your attitude if you ever find yourself in a very difficult situation (like the "slaves" you swear to care about) you are going to end up eating a lot of fecal matter, because you will never accept working conditions that do not provide all the protections and benefits that YOU "deserve."

From Wikipedia:

Slavery is a form of forced labor in which people are considered to be the property of others. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand wages.

I do not see how slavery applies to those people when nobody is forcing them to work against their will. Nobody has purchased them and they can leave and return to their countries whenever they please. If I had to do it to better my own situation, I would find a way too.

Ckuekess...one can definitely say you chose a good name...it does not matter what I think, what I will tolerate or what any one else chooses to tolerate. Employing illegals is a violation of dozens of our laws, not the least of which is immigration law. You are OK with that? Would you be OK with that for your immigrant wife for whom you just went through the process of getting a green card?

In case you hadn't caught the drift, or ignored it, illegal immigrants are not really slaves by the wikipedia definition. Big surprise. You got me there, point for Clueless, but in so doing proved you are incable of abstract thought and analogous comparison. Great job, thanks. The comparison is made because at the rate most illegals are paid it would be more expensive for the US businesses exploiting them to own them as slaves. They are todays replacement for slaves, they are the underclass which has replaced the slaves, then the segregated and exploited black people. The segregated and exploited black people became more trouble than they were worth in the 60s and we relegated them to the ghetto and welfare to keep them out of regular society, like we did to the Indians. We destroyed their education and made sure they will never get really good jobs and be dependent forever on the government. We replaced them with changes to the immigration law made in 1965 (hmmm, coincidental to the civil rights act) and the flood of illegals began.

I would like for you to explain WHY you would be against enforcing our labor laws, wage and hour standards, and workplace safety regulations. Is it really OK with you that people are put in unsafe working conditions, underpaid, overworked and that American companies pocket huge sums of money on the backs of other people, do not pay into the SS system or medicare. This is all OK with you? Employers thumb their nose at all our laws and it is OK by you? YOU require YOUR employer to pay you all these things, yet you accept that your competitor may not be and may be underpricing his work and competing unfairly which can cause you to lose your job? This is OK by you?

I mean if you just wish to continue to be stupid, I have no problem with that, just say so. I support your right to choose.