If you have an accent

[jimnlena 8]

Could not of said it better myself Gary!

[clueless_in_usa 8]

Could not of said it better myself Gary!

Gary for PRESIDENT!

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Lots to be said from both sides of this issue. This is a tough call. To me, it makes sense but it is definitely not in line with the Constitution. If you want to put a dent in illegal immigration in AZ, look for Hispanics. If you want to find the likely terrorist, look for people that look like bin Laden et al. Is it profiling, absolutely! Is it contrary to the Constitution, I think so. Is it necessary, yes. It has only taken about 200 years to discover that the US Constitution is not perfect. I like the idea that I can drive around and not get stopped everyday and asked for my ID. If you want a free society you either go free 100% or start heading back down that which we fought so hard to free ourselves from. But if you go 100% free then you have to deal with the problems that come with that and that means no reasonable way to deal with illegal immigrants. The flip side is to start ID'ing people that seem suspicious. But as soon as you start saying that it is OK to do a body search on Abdul but not on 6 year old Sarah all dressed up in her Easter best, you have a problem. At least the Russians seem to trample on everyone’s rights equally. This AZ law will lead to discrimination and I am sure several court cases about its constitutionality. I would be happier if they just required you show a valid DL or other ID when making a purchase of any kind but that too would bring on the moaning & groaning about how invasive the government is. You can't have it all ways people.

Bottom line. We have laws. Follow them or expect penalties. Be careful what you wish for because the result may lead to things that cause you inconvenience and discomfort.

I too enjoy the freedom of not being harrassed by police and never want to see here what I experienced in Ukraine. Being stopped and asked for my papers was nearly a daily thing, so we are by no means the only country that does it. Incidentaly I also lived in the UK and Canada and was never asked for my papers there.

The way to prevent this is to end the economic incetive for illegals to be here by severly punishing people that employ, abuse and exploit illegal aliens. Punish the real criminals. IF we would do so, it could mean so much more to the people of Mexico. Ending the economic lure would mean that they could eventually join Canadians with their special easy access to the USA, when there would no longer be a high risk of illegal immigration, sich as with Canadians and EU citizens, then they could travel here without visas.

People opposing laws to end the human tragedy that is this illegal slavery would be appalled if I proposed ending the minimum wage or workman's comp., they would howl to the moon if I suggested removing laws protecting us from sexual harassment or wanted to end social security or medicare or our new universal health care...yet they condone exactly the same thing for these illegal workers. It is the strangest situation I ever saw and qualifies as a new level of stupidity if not blatant racism.

When these workers are employed here, for pitifully low wages, very often $3 per hour or less, the employers not only pocket profits from underpaying people, they do not contribute 7.65% to SS and medicare, do not provide workman's comp or liability insurance, paid vacation etc. It is a gold mine of exploitation for employers.

Now imagine something else, if you will. There has recently been a terrible accident in West Virginia which killed hard working miners. It is terrible and it is a dangerous job. Despite all the safeguards OSHA, MSHA, NIOSH and the United Mine Workers rukes, accidents happen and people are killed. even when there are regulations and a mechanism in place to report violations of safety rules, people are killed. Even when specially trained people oversee the safety of the workers, people are killed. These miner's families will receive insurance settlements, company life insurance, and their wives and children will receive SS payments for the rest of their lives. Illegals families would get NONE of this, who knows if their deaths would even be reported? Reported to whom? Officially they do not exist in this country.

Illegals in construction are being made to work without helmets, safety glasses, safety harnesses, gloves, steel toed shoes, safe equipment and ladders...these things add up. It can be as much as 37% of the pay of a worker...a well paid American construction trade worker making $18-22 per hour (non-union) PLUS benefits. These illegals have no mechanism to complain, no avenue to seek a safe workplace, no assurance for their families and yet they work in one of the most dangerous occupations in America, statistically far more dangerous than a fireman or policeman...far more.

Who among us here would suggest, or even imagine, taking away safety equipment from our nations firefighters? Which of you would suggest that families of policemen killed in the line of duty not get compensated? And maybe not even get notified! who would suggest that? Anyone? Yet so many people will suggest doing the same to illegal aliens. Why? Because they are brown or yellow?

which one of you here would neglect getting a green card for your immigrant spouse? Which of you here would allow your immigrant spouse to work for $3 per hour or be harassed sexually, or raped, or forced to work on high platforms or roofs with no safety harness? Who? Which of you would allow an employer to NOT pay into SS or medicare for your spouse? Which of you would allow your spouse to work 60 hours per week with no overtime? Or 7 days per week for 8-10 weeks with no overtime, no time off? Yet you would think it is OK for an employer to do this to another person? Strange.

this is the United States! Employers here are required by law to provide reasonable safe work places, free of harassment and discrimination. we cannot allow sexual harrassment, even if the woman likes it. We cannot allow workers to work without a harness on high platforms, even if they do not like wearing a harness, we cannot allow firefighters not to wear a respirator even if they do not like it. This is the United States! We are required to provide safe and healthy work places, as safe and healthy as we can. We cannot allow people to continue to exploit illegal aliens to save money on these things which we have rightfully legislated employers are required to provide. We cannot allow them to avoid the laws WE have provided for, simply by shifting the risk to brown skinned people. This is the Unites States! We cannot allow an employer to pay less than the minimum wage or employ children against child labor protection laws. Allowing this will set us back more than 100 years.

Employers and property owners that do this should be punished severely, the threat of punishment should be so severe, so sure and so swift that NO employer would DARE to hire anyone that isn't legally in trhe country and would not DARE to violate wage and hour laws, safety regulations and discrimination laws. we need to END the econimic incentive to hire illegal aliens to avoid our laws to protect workers...protect PEOPLE of all races.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

The way to prevent this is to end the economic incetive for illegals to be here by severly punishing people that employ, abuse and exploit illegal aliens. Punish the real criminals. IF we would do so, it could mean so much more to the people of Mexico. Ending the economic lure would mean that they could eventually join Canadians with their special easy access to the USA, when there would no longer be a high risk of illegal immigration, sich as with Canadians and EU citizens, then they could travel here without visas.

People opposing laws to end the human tragedy that is this illegal slavery would be appalled if I proposed ending the minimum wage or workman's comp., they would howl to the moon if I suggested removing laws protecting us from sexual harassment or wanted to end social security or medicare or our new universal health care...yet they condone exactly the same thing for these illegal workers. It is the strangest situation I ever saw and qualifies as a new level of stupidity if not blatant racism.

Who among us here would suggest, or even imagine, taking away safety equipment from our nations firefighters? Which of you would suggest that families of policemen killed in the line of duty not get compensated? And maybe not even get notified! who would suggest that? Anyone? Yet so many people will suggest doing the same to illegal aliens. Why? Because they are brown or yellow?

First:

You need to wake up, because you are living in dream land. The two most important incentives that illegals have to come to the USA are a better life than what they can ever dream to have in their home countries (Yes! countries, because illegals are not only Mexican) and the lure of very easy money through the trafficking of drugs to the vast and hungry USA market.

Second:

I could care less about the laws that you mentioned above. Obama care should have never passed, and it has to come a day when people stop depending on the government and start depending on themselves, especially for retirement. Stop being victims! Everything has to be a law in this country. It makes me sick!

Third:

I know more illegals that have pearly white skin like YOU, than illegals that have brown or yellow skin. According to you, I should immediately report these "white slaves" and their "owners" because a crime is being committed. Well, I won't do that. Why? Because these people are happier doing what they are doing than how they were in their fabulous countries, where you propose to send them back to.

For the record, these illegals that I know are not being raped, and not being forced to do jobs they do not want to do. Their only disadvantage is that they get paid a little less than their peers and they cannot complain. Otherwise their working conditions are exactly the same as those working with them who have all the benefits of working in the USA legally.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I really don't think that punishment for business alone will do the trick. There also has to be physical enforcement of immigration law. Sad but true. Although mass movement of business to Mexico in the form of factories, etc. will help raise the standard of living in some areas, it is important to understand how porous the Mexican borders are, and this is not just a problem for the US. So even if the standard of living in Mexico is somehow raised enough to take away some of the incentive to move north for the people who already live on the border, what about all the impoverished people in the south, and other countries? That is one of the primary differences between Mexico and Canada. Also, this economic stuff is separate, although related, from the question of security I talked about earlier.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

Wow! I had not noticed, but I have a God Member (look below my Avatar)

[DanielParul 50]

he was and wasn't Brad. He would like us to believe he is sarcastic. In reality he is a racist, as are all phony liberals with low expectations of black and brown people, support of affirmative action and other programs to "protect the inferior races" They are the same ones that turned fire hoses on them 40 years ago and used the KKK as their radical domestic terrorist arm to promote their Democratic party segregationist theories.

They have simply polished the ####### of racism to make it look good. He wants to "protect" the 4th amendment "right" of an illegal alien so the illegal alien can go to work tomorrow and provide increased profits for a greedy capitalist PIG roofing contractor. Or mow the lawn of a fat Democratic party contributor. If that 4th amendment protected illegal alien falls off the roof...too bad for him. Workman's comp is for white people like Mox, the brown ones can be sent back in a box and we can get a new one tomorrow at the Home Depot slave auction. It is disgusting, Brad.

I won't even patronize a Home Depot in Vermont because they allow illegals to be auctioned on their property in Arizona, Texas, Mississippi and many other places.

Go ahead, list off the programs the phony liberals support

1. Minimum wage

2. Workman's comp.

3. Family and medical leave

4. Universal health care

5. Fair benefits, paid vacation, sick pay, holiday pay

6. "Prevailing wage" requirements for contractors

7, Housing safety to prevent "slumlords"

8. Work standards for treatment of employees, rest periods, number of days which can be worked

9. Occupational safety and health regulations <------ BIG!!!!!!

10. Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid

This is just a short list. NONE of these are available to working illegals, NONE. They cannot complain about it, they can do nothing about it. They are helpless to avoid being abused, exploited. There is nothing they can do and MOX is wanting us to believe he CARES if the cops ask to look at the illegal's green card? Are you kidding me?

I mean, Brad, Mox supported the health care act which specifically excludes illegal aliens from coverage, but doesn;t want them sent back to their own country where they would have medcial that Mox supports for us? What the ####????

The people that oppose laws to reduce the influx of illegal are racists, pure and simple. They see this new law as a way of cutting into their "right" to have people serve them at lower than normal wages and benefits so they can get their lawn mowed cheap, or a better price on a roofing job or cheap lettuce and onions. It is the most selfish, racist pigheaded position one can take. I cannot imagine a more blantantly racist position than wishing to keep good and decent people enslaved in a human trafficking industry for profit or political gain. It is revolting, nauseating.

The people who are exploiting these poor human beings need to be put OUT OF BUSINESS, they need to have their property confiscated, they need to be put in prison. When we end the economic incetive for slavery, slavery will end. The slaves will freely walk home where they will be protected by their country's laws, healthcare plans (which they have had for many years longer than we have and they must be very good at healthcare by now)retirement prgrams, etc. All the things that FREE people enjoy and Mox wishes to deny to the brown people who are brought here by our slave conscription process.

I have not seen it put better than this

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

First:

You need to wake up, because you are living in dream land. The two most important incentives that illegals have to come to the USA are a better life than what they can ever dream to have in their home countries (Yes! countries, because illegals are not only Mexican) and the lure of very easy money through the trafficking of drugs to the vast and hungry USA market.

Second:

I could care less about the laws that you mentioned above. Obama care should have never passed, and it has to come a day when people stop depending on the government and start depending on themselves, especially for retirement. Stop being victims! Everything has to be a law in this country. It makes me sick!

Third:

I know more illegals that have pearly white skin like YOU, than illegals that have brown or yellow skin. According to you, I should immediately report these "white slaves" and their "owners" because a crime is being committed. Well, I won't do that. Why? Because these people are happier doing what they are doing than how they were in their fabulous countries, where you propose to send them back to.

For the record, these illegals that I know are not being raped, and not being forced to do jobs they do not want to do. Their only disadvantage is that they get paid a little less than their peers and they cannot complain. Otherwise their working conditions are exactly the same as those working with them who have all the benefits of working in the USA legally.

The supporters of abuse and slavery are very difficult to convince sometimes. But we will use your out,ine

First

There are no lifestyle advantages for people that cannot ne employed as slaves because the punichment for hiring illegals is so severe as to make it impractical for anyone to do so for fear of losing their business/home etc. I am not racist and dop not care what country illegals are from. I do not support slavery and abuse of any person regardless of race.

Second

It doesn't matter if you like the laws. They are the laws of the country. Citizens and legal immigrants have the ability to depend on themselves as much as they like. Laws are laws, we cannot allow employers to avoid the laws we pass by hiring slaves.

Third

I am not racist, I do not care what color their skin is. According to me, neither you nor anyone else has to report anyone to anyone, Pass a law implementing a tax of $500,000 per day per illegal working and they will be immediately released from their slave labor job. Pass a law requiring the presentation of documents of legal presence for school enrollment, medical care (like it or not, Obama care does NOT cover illegals, it specifically does not cover illegals)drivers licenses, etc. The slaves will go back to whatever country they came from on their own, at their own expense. We will not need walls, fences, deportations or anything else and the USA will no longer offer a better lifestyle for slaves.

You do not know many illegals. That a few slaves are treated well (except for being underpaid) means nothing. They are also not receiving SS payments, medicare payments, workman's comp payments, disability payments, their families are nor protected. It DOES NOT MATTER if they "agree to it" or you like it or not. It is illegal, it is a violation of laws we duly implmented and the employers of these people should be severly punished economically until employing slaves is impractical.

Drug dealers are a whole 'nother matter and have no bearing on this topic and I will not discuss any other criminal activity in conjunction with the employment of slaves. It is nothing but a diversion. we have adequate laws to deal with drug dealers regardless of their immigration status.

For the record, so you and everyone else is clear...

I DO NOT support or advocate...

Deportations, walls, fences, reporting anyone, arresting anyone, the government checking green cards with or without probable cause, invasions of peoples privacy,etc. I do not care what color people's skin is. I do not mix drug dealers with slave laborers, they are not the same.

I support ONLY the removal of conditions which make the use of slave labor economically feasible. We do not need laws to prevent the construction of buggy whip factories. There is no economic need for buggy whips so you will not wake up to a new buggy whip factory being built in your backyard tomorrow, I promise. WHEN the economic conditions that are conducive to slavery are removed, the slaves will be freed and they will go home on their own.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

I really don't think that punishment for business alone will do the trick. There also has to be physical enforcement of immigration law. Sad but true. Although mass movement of business to Mexico in the form of factories, etc. will help raise the standard of living in some areas, it is important to understand how porous the Mexican borders are, and this is not just a problem for the US. So even if the standard of living in Mexico is somehow raised enough to take away some of the incentive to move north for the people who already live on the border, what about all the impoverished people in the south, and other countries? That is one of the primary differences between Mexico and Canada. Also, this economic stuff is separate, although related, from the question of security I talked about earlier.

Why not rry it Brad?

The border with Canada is no less porous than the one with Mexico. I can take you for walks in the woods near my home and we can walk into Canada and never know it. You can set off your boat from my pier and be in Canada in about 10 minutes and never know it. There is absolutely no border marker or enforcement AT ALL. None. If there is a boat off my pier, there is an 80% chance or so the people on it speak French and are from Quebec. Quebecois far outnumber Americans living in the surrounding area, by like 10 to 1.

But we have no problem of illegal immigration from Quebecois because there is no economic advantage to do so. economic advantages can exist in many forms. One is a difference in lifestyle and economy, such does not exost between the USA and Canada. Life in Montreal is virtually identical to life in Chicago, New York, Boston. The houses look the same, the people live about the same, they make about the same amount of money and can freely dock thier boats in Vermont and New York where most of the marinas are (the Canadian part of the lake is pretty shallow and not conducive to big sailboats which the Quebecois seem to like) So the reason the Canadians are not sneaking past my house in the dark is because there is no economic incetive as they already have what they could get here.

Mexico, on the other hand, has a poor economy, so poor that even being a slave here is better than being a free person in Mexico. Doesn;t matter. We cannot allow slavery even if slavery is a step up for some people. If they cannot get a "better" job as a slave they will not come, just as the Canadians do not come because they cannot get better jobs (there actually is some illegal immigration fom Canada, but it is not Canadians)

We simply need to enforce the laws we have passed to provide a quality of life we desire, a level of work standards we demand for ALL people. I am not proposing even that we pass ANY new laws, we already have the laws we need. Simply increase the level of punishment for violations of existing laws on employers. If they WANT to employ Mexicans, they can move their factory, as many have to avoid tax laws. Our goverment ought to be making it easy for our factories to employ Americans in America and not encourage them to leave the country (the factories in Mexico were not deported, they left for economic, TAX, reasons, they will stop employing illegals for the same reasons)

The US government knows all about manipulating society with the tax code. Want people to buy cars? Cash for clunkers. Want people to buy houses? $8000 tax rebate. Want people to improve the energy efficiency of their homes? Tax incentives. They even manipulate states to legislate drinking age, seat belt laws and educational standards by wihholding money if they do not. The government knows exactly how to eliminate the problem of illegal immigration today. The government has NO DESIRE to elimnate illegal immigration as it is so valable a political tool for both the ruling parties. The only thing they do is make stupid laws and debate the same thing over and over when everyone sees the pink elephant in the room. Everyone has an agenda for the illegals, a desire for them to be here, just as everyone wanted slavery in the 1850s and 60s. everyone beefits from it and no one cares that millions of people are exploited and abused for their selfish desires.

will it stop every illegal. No. Will it stop every employer from hiring slaves? No. will it stop most of them? Absolutely. You are a banker Brad, you know what happens when an economic consideration moves a company to go one way or another on a project or plans for the future. You know as well as I do that every decision made by a company has tax based considerations in it. I see whole plans for multi-million $$$ projects thrown out over tax considerations, the tax reform of 1986 completely changed the commercial real estate business forever.

A huge tax punishment for employing slaves will put an end to the practice. simple as that.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

Gary,

as a fiscally conservative liberal who embraces libertarian ideas, I'm not exactly in your political corner. Yet your post shows a breathtaking and utter comprehension of the whole immigration issue. If your fellow Americans had only a fraction of your brain power and ability to see through the smoke, we would need no discussion on this subject as its implications are self-explanatory.

One point, however, I'd like to add: putting pressure on the Mexican government. Tell them if they don't cooperate in getting the illegal border crossings under control, the US will pull all of their manufacturing (i.e., Dodge trucks) out of their country and seize giving out treats to the Mexican Government.

[Darnell 8,479]

Well, lets see what the arrest #'s are for this month - the first week o May - the stats should have been collected, by then.

GoGoGadget ShowYerIDCard!

[Darnell 8,479]

** yeah. The 4th amendment is for white people.

Some might say it's for Citizens

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Gary,

as a fiscally conservative liberal who embraces libertarian ideas, I'm not exactly in your political corner. Yet your post shows a breathtaking and utter comprehension of the whole immigration issue. If your fellow Americans had only a fraction of your brain power and ability to see through the smoke, we would need no discussion on this subject as its implications are self-explanatory.

One point, however, I'd like to add: putting pressure on the Mexican government. Tell them if they don't cooperate in getting the illegal border crossings under control, the US will pull all of their manufacturing (i.e., Dodge trucks) out of their country and seize giving out treats to the Mexican Government.

I am also a TRUE liberal (libertarian) so while I undewrstand your frustration, it is not our governments place to dictate policy to Mexico and not all illegal aliens are Mexican. Also it is not our government's policy to dictate to Dodge (well, maybe it is now, but it shouldn;t be)

The government can get any of those companies to move back tomorrow by passing the FAIR TAX. The government can get ALL the illegal aliens to go home tomorrow by taxing the holy living sh*t out of any business that hires one and seizing their proerty to cover the tax debt.

The politicians in Mexico (since you mention it) need illegals also. Slavery is, and always has been, good for both sides of the slave supply chain. Mexico has, at any given moment, nearly 10% of its citizens in the USA, this is a huge relief valve for the Mexican government. Also, the sale of its citizens as slaves to the USA provides the largest part of their foreign income (except possibly for drug smuggling which isn't nearly so well documented) The primary source of foreign trade for Mexico is as a pimp for its citizens. You would be asking them to cut off their biggest industry...slave auctioning. It will never happen. Just as Africans sold their fellow Africans into slavery, the Mexican government will sell its citizens into slavery. Nothing new under the sun. The widespread use of Africans as slaves did NOT end because of some moral compunction originating in Africa. Mexico will do nothing to end the exploitation of Mecians, they get too much money from it.

This whole problem is about MONEY. It all goes away when there is no MONEY reason for it to exist.

The US government has the ability to end this tomorrow, they do not need to askl anyone, they do not need to be accused of racism, they do not need to invade anyones rights, they do not need a fence, a virtual fence or anything else, They simply need to make it economically impossible to employ slaves. If employers wish to exploit humans, abuse them, take awy all the rights we fought for, turn back 125 years of labor laws...then we need to tax them right out of business.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

The law requires police to question (let's face it) dark-skinned people about their immigration status if they have "reasonable suspicion." It also has a provision allowing police to be sued if people don't think the Police are doing this. It's a terrible answer to a very real problem. It's unfortunate that the Federal government won't get off their collective butts to do something about illegal immigration, but this is not the answer. I look forward to the many many lawsuits that will make Arizona look like the backwards hicks they just signed up to be, and the eventual repeal of this unconstitutional law. In the meantime, my immigrant wife and I will make sure none of our dollars are spent with Arizona businesses.

But you will pay $$$ to contractors that send brown people on the roof without a safety harness in violation of the law...risking the brown persons life to increase his profits. Racist. You will buy lettuce picked by someone making $3 per hour because the minimum wage law is only for whites. Racist. When will you apply the laws you support for whites, the protections you want for whites, to all people? Why is it ok with you to abuse and exploit brown people, but you will boycott a state (????) for checking green cards? How dare they try to prevent the exploitation and abuse of brown people that you so depend on. Racist.

I cannot believe that anyone that claims to be a gun toting liberal would be so opposed to the fair treatment of all people. Astounding.

And you say they are "backward hicks"?

[ScratchIt 12]

I cannot believe that anyone that claims to be a gun toting liberal would be so opposed to the fair treatment of all people criminals. Astounding.

Just a reminder of who we are talking about here.