But we don't want health insurance!

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

You may well agree, but this kind of mentality is exactly why the US is and will continue to be a brutal place for many people who can't afford or don't have access to adequate healthcare.

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

That was only true when the tired, poor, wretched and homeless were all Irish and Eyetalian.

Now that they're Mexican, we only want the well-educated who have their own health insurance and can buy into brand new suburban subdivisions within a few years of arrival.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

You may well agree, but this kind of mentality is exactly why the US is and will continue to be a brutal place for many people who can't afford or don't have access to adequate healthcare.

ugh. you didn't even read what I said. That's ok though. You keep living in your delusional and magical world where costs will magically come down on their own and because we cover everyone, it will be cheap and be of awesome quality and easy for everyone to access it...

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Very well said, P&V!

I'm curious about the conjecture that even millionaires and billionaires have health insurance. What is that based on? Just because health insurance is a fiscal necessity for some doesn't mean it's a fiscal necessity for everyone. Someone, like Phillip Anschutz, for example, who donates enough money to finance an oncology wing of a hospital center not only has his and his family's health care covered, he gets a juicy tax write off for it. Health insurance for those who can afford to work the system is a loss. If you don't know this, you aren't rich.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

ugh. you didn't even read what I said. That's ok though. You keep living in your delusional and magical world where costs will magically come down on their own and because we cover everyone, it will be cheap and be of awesome quality and easy for everyone to access it...

You didn't say anything worth commenting on - just the usual round of spurious handwaving about how the high costs of healthcare can be laid solely and squarely at the door of government and government regulators and not at a systematic (and symbiotic) process of corruption between successive governments and the private health insurance system. Oh yes - and not forgetting the "entitlement mentality" of people who are obviously too lazy to work and want everything for free.

Brilliant

Edited April 22, 2010 by Its a MADHOUSE

[Ali G. 37]

We all have choices we make.

You mean like the choice to assist our fellow countrymen rather than watch them die? Walking all lover your fellow countrymen used to be something common amongst the uncivilized aristocratic autocracy days. You know, those king and queens days you guys fought a war to get away from.

Health Care is not a right in any way, despite the ignorance and 'heartfelt' mentality of some. It's a service that's performed by other people, who have the right to request compensation as they see fit for said services

.....

Everyone spends so much damn time looking at this entitlement mentality of the whole thing, they don't look at the big picture and it's sickening and on borderline stupity.

It'd be great if everyone could be covered and have excellent quality of care, but we all know that's not a reality and never going to be a reality (no matter what country you're in... Though BY will argue Aussies are more bad #### than everyone else). There's always going to be issues and always going to be kinks in the system.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this pipe dream of quality care for all is not feasible, nor possible until the issue of actual health care costs is addressed. The key that everyone needs to ask themselves is WHY do we need insurance to begin with on a broadscale. The problem isn't insurance, the problem is why does a procedure cost $5,000 that is pretty routine. Why does something major end up costing more than a small home. Until people are willing to be realistic (which most aren't) then we will never solve this problem in this country.

There is zero rational logic in it not being a right. The rationale against UHC is just ridiculous by any stretch. If it was not, surely at least one other civilized first world country would have adopted it. No? This mentality is the equivalent of you trying to convince me that five wheels are better on a car, with one smack bang in the middle, simply because that's the way we have done it and what you 'believe'. Yet when I demonstrate and illustrate that every other successful auto company around the world uses four, you think they are just stupid nor care. Think, as in assume without basis or any research.

This reform is the first step as you cannot do everything at once. Funny you mention cost because I'll give you one guess what would reduce the cost and bring it down to the level of every other first world country. That is, a third of what you spend per capita now. Any ideas? First Hint: starts with G. Second Hint: Think of what libertarians loathe the most.

It's much easier to demonize the insurance industry for something to get votes that the government does as well.... than it is to address the actual problems.

Sorry Paul but the American insurance companies did it to themselves. Regardless of consequences, they got greedy and ###### over one too many Americans, all for a profit. The Constitutionally protected American has now fought back against them. However, thanks to anti-government folks they have still won; as there is no single payer system. Rather, much like private contractors, they will reap all of the benefits by ripping you guys off, and call this capitalism.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Ali G.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

There is zero rational logic in it not being a right. The rationale against UHC is just ridiculous by any stretch. If it was not, surely at least one other civilized first world country would have adopted it. No? This mentality is the equivalent of you trying to convince me that five wheels are better on a car, with one smack bang in the middle, simply because that's the way we have done it and what you 'believe'. Yet when I demonstrate and illustrate that every other successful auto company around the world uses four, you think they are just stupid nor care. Think, as in assume without basis or any research.

This reform is the first step as you cannot do everything at once. Funny you mention cost because I'll give you one guess what would reduce the cost and bring it down to the level of every other first world country. That is, a third of what you spend per capita now. Any ideas? First Hint: starts with G. Second Hint: Think of what libertarians loathe the most.

You're comparing 4 wheels on a car to something being a right? You really do fail in this logic here. A "right" cannot, nor ever be something that entails madating another to do something for another. That's absurd.

Sorry Paul but the American insurance companies did it to themselves. Regardless of consequences, they got greedy and ###### over one too many Americans, all for a profit. The Constitutionally protected American has now fought back against them. However, thanks to anti-government folks they have still won; as there is no single payer system. Rather, much like private contractors, they will reap all of the benefits by ripping you guys off, and call this capitalism.

You still obviously know nothing about the industry here. Insurance is not, nor has it ever been the problem. You cannot blame private insurance companies in their 'denial' of claims when Medicare and Medicaid do the EXACT same thing. -- It's not about greed either. Look a profit margins. Look at revenue actual revenue from premiums vs. revenue from their investments. If insurance companies paid out for services based on premiums alone, premiums would be much higher and they would deny many more claims than they already do.

You just go ahead and keep blaming something that doesn't have anything to do with the overall cost problem, and ignore what the real problems are and see how far it gets us. It will get us no where. The only difference now, is costs are going to keep going up and you're going to force companies to take on more of a burden.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

You didn't say anything worth commenting on - just the usual round of spurious handwaving about how the high costs of healthcare can be laid solely and squarely at the door of government and government regulators and not at a systematic (and symbiotic) process of corruption between successive governments and the private health insurance system. Oh yes - and not forgetting the "entitlement mentality" of people who are obviously too lazy to work and want everything for free.

Brilliant

Do you enjoy your bubble world where you believe the spoonfed ####### about insurance companies being the mortal enemy and government being so awesome in their decisions?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Do you enjoy making assumptions about what others believe based on nothing that they have actually said?

At least I criticise you based on what you actually write. The big flaw you have is that you bring preconceived ideas into every thread that cloud your ability to think clearly about any issue.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Since when is forcing an individual mandate on everyone a "choice" to help your fellow man? It's nothing less than tyranny, which must be challenged as an overreach of governmental powers. So far, 20 states are taking up that challenge. More to come. There is no democracy in tyranny, no matter who it's supposed to benefit or why.

Since when is forcing an individual mandate on everyone a "choice" to help your fellow man? It's nothing less than tyranny, which must be challenged as an overreach of governmental powers. So far, 20 states are taking up that challenge. More to come. There is no democracy in tyranny, no matter who it's supposed to benefit or why.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Do you enjoy making assumptions about what others believe based on nothing that they have actually said?

At least I criticise you based on what you actually write. The big flaw you have is that you bring preconceived ideas into every thread that cloud your ability to think clearly about any issue.

lol, I think clearly on every issue.

People 'red flag' anything that says Government is bad and industry isn't to blame though. There seems to be this "OMG, how dare you criticize the government so much" attitude.

The only thing I mentioned in blaming the government in the last thread was about the mandating of newer technologies and how that was one of the things that attributed to costs. Yet you automatically come in and point out that the whole thing was about blaming government.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Since when is forcing an individual mandate on everyone a "choice" to help your fellow man? It's nothing less than tyranny, which must be challenged as an overreach of governmental powers. So far, 20 states are taking up that challenge. More to come. There is no democracy in tyranny, no matter who it's supposed to benefit or why.

Since when is forcing an individual mandate on everyone a "choice" to help your fellow man? It's nothing less than tyranny, which must be challenged as an overreach of governmental powers. So far, 20 states are taking up that challenge. More to come. There is no democracy in tyranny, no matter who it's supposed to benefit or why.

I see this from time to time, accidental duplicates in the same post. How does this happen?

I see this from time to time, accidental duplicates in the same post. How does this happen?

I see this from time to time, accidental duplicates in the same post. How does this happen?

I see this from time to time, accidental duplicates in the same post. How does this happen?

I see this from time to time, accidental duplicates in the same post. How does this happen?

I see this from time to time, accidental duplicates in the same post. How does this happen?

[Obama 2012 1,714]

I see this from time to time, accidental duplicates in the same post. How does this happen?

I see this from time to time, accidental duplicates in the same post. How does this happen?

I see this from time to time, accidental duplicates in the same post. How does this happen?

I see this from time to time, accidental duplicates in the same post. How does this happen?

I see this from time to time, accidental duplicates in the same post. How does this happen?

I see this from time to time, accidental duplicates in the same post. How does this happen?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

lol, I think clearly on every issue.

People 'red flag' anything that says Government is bad and industry isn't to blame though. There seems to be this "OMG, how dare you criticize the government so much" attitude.

The only thing I mentioned in blaming the government in the last thread was about the mandating of newer technologies and how that was one of the things that attributed to costs. Yet you automatically come in and point out that the whole thing was about blaming government.

Government AND industry are to blame for the current state of affairs. We don't live in a black and white world, where large, complex situations can be neatly tied off and the blame laid squarely at the food of one party.

[Ali G. 37]

You're comparing 4 wheels on a car to something being a right? You really do fail in this logic here. A "right" cannot, nor ever be something that entails madating another to do something for another. That's absurd.

No, I am giving you an example of the ridiculous nature of this mentality. Of the 'this is how we have done it and we're not listening to nobody' attitude. I realized a long time ago that logical discussions are simply not the norm, the way of deciding things, in this country. If they were, people wouldn't listen to talk show hosts and treat their personal opinions like theory. As such, I attempt to try figure out the mentality of people. Heck, many would rather base anything and everything on the Constitution; as if it's some sort of crystal ball (magical document of wisdom).

You still obviously know nothing about the industry here. Insurance is not, nor has it ever been the problem. You cannot blame private insurance companies in their 'denial' of claims when Medicare and Medicaid do the EXACT same thing. -- It's not about greed either. Look a profit margins. Look at revenue actual revenue from premiums vs. revenue from their investments. If insurance companies paid out for services based on premiums alone, premiums would be much higher and they would deny many more claims than they already do.

You just go ahead and keep blaming something that doesn't have anything to do with the overall cost problem, and ignore what the real problems are and see how far it gets us. It will get us no where. The only difference now, is costs are going to keep going up and you're going to force companies to take on more of a burden.

Perhaps my own experiences with the insurances companies are fabricated. If two overlapping policies cannot cover a person then, what the hell does? Removing the middle man (insurance) is exactly why health care is so affordable abroad. Government pays the doctor directly. Naturally, the insurance companies are not the sole problem. Americans are being ripped of at a range of levels

• Private hospitals charging $140 for a single Tylenol tablet.
  
• Doctors being forced to purchase mult- million dollar litigation insurance.
  
• Pharmaceutical companies charging $180 for the same medication that can be purchased abroad for $35.
  
• Lab tests, x-rays, CT scans, mammograms being billed at 10 to 20 times the actual cost.
  

Nevertheless, that does not excuse the insurance companies from their negligence. Like pre-existing condition denials or denying / canceling coverage when a person becomes seriously ill. You cannot blame that on the above mate.

The government has regulated or purchased their own equipment / hospitals to nip such extortion in the butt abroad. 'But we have better service, the best in the world!'. Strange how not one person from a first world country on here agrees with this viewpoint. That is, someone who has actually used both systems.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Ali G.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Government AND industry are to blame for the current state of affairs. We don't live in a black and white world, where large, complex situations can be neatly tied off and the blame laid squarely at the food of one party.

and I have pointed this out many times. I've gone off on the pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, government, etc. The whole thing is one big cluster-#### of problems. My problem is, that insurance is the one being demonized and it's the wrong thing to attack first. They are the least contributing factor to the issue of cost. Hell, medicare effects costs much more than any private insurer does. Simply because medicare doesn't pay out actual 'costs' most of the time and short-pays. On top of that as said, they deny more claims than anyone else out there as well... Regardless though, that's a small factor when you look at every other aspect.