Separating the Religious Ceremony from the Civil

[Krikit 1,165]

Not if you're an ordained minister.

[PastorJJJ1958 0]

Not if you're an ordained minister.

Ordained for over 25 years...serving full time!

[Krikit 1,165]

I will PM you.

[Udella&Wiz 325]

Well - if you didn't apply for a marriage license for yourselves (and thus didn't file the completed one after the marriage) ....how are you married? Just saying.

If you're doing a K-1...what is the reasoning to do the religious portion before she moves down?

[PastorJJJ1958 0]

Well - if you didn't apply for a marriage license for yourselves (and thus didn't file the completed one after the marriage) ....how are you married? Just saying.

If you're doing a K-1...what is the reasoning to do the religious portion before she moves down?

Here is the reasoning. Christine and I met on eHarmony during the summer. So far I have made 7 trips to Canada while she has made 5 here. On one of her first trips here she saw a beautiful patio (at a friend's house) and knew that this was where she wanted to be married. We became engaged in February and foolishly thought immigration would be a breeze. So we set at date (September 4) and started telling friends in Canada in US. Many of her friends want to come down on that date (Labor Day Weekend) and make a Holiday of it - plus she is very close to them.

Then reality set in and we found out this process takes 5 months plus... The best weather for an outdoor wedding in Southern California is in September and October. So we resigned ourselves to making alternate plans. Then the idea came that we could separate the religious ceremony from the civil one. She would fly down the week before...we would have the religious ceremony and she would fly back to Canada after the wedding wait for the VISA.

Then when everything was clear, she would enter the US on the VISA..we would drive to Vegas and have the civil ceremony. We would not live together until the civil ceremony was completed.

We do not wish to deceive anyone or break any laws or hurt our chances...we just want to have a celebration with out closest friends and family and before God. Our spirituality is one of most treasured aspects of our relationship.

[Udella&Wiz 325]

Gotcha....more then a few folks have done the opposite approach...had the civil ceremony first once they moved and then had the bigger religious, family ceremony a year after (or sometime after the civil) many times because it's so darn hard to plan based on the moving target that immigration gave us all! Have you considered.

I can't see your timeline,but when do you expect to have an interview and she'll be approved or have you just started?

Here is the reasoning. Christine and I met on eHarmony during the summer. So far I have made 7 trips to Canada while she has made 5 here. On one of her first trips here she saw a beautiful patio (at a friend's house) and knew that this was where she wanted to be married. We became engaged in February and foolishly thought immigration would be a breeze. So we set at date (September 4) and started telling friends in Canada in US. Many of her friends want to come down on that date (Labor Day Weekend) and make a Holiday of it - plus she is very close to them.

Then reality set in and we found out this process takes 5 months plus... The best weather for an outdoor wedding in Southern California is in September and October. So we resigned ourselves to making alternate plans. Then the idea came that we could separate the religious ceremony from the civil one. She would fly down the week before...we would have the religious ceremony and she would fly back to Canada after the wedding wait for the VISA.

Then when everything was clear, she would enter the US on the VISA..we would drive to Vegas and have the civil ceremony. We would not live together until the civil ceremony was completed.

We do not wish to deceive anyone or break any laws or hurt our chances...we just want to have a celebration with out closest friends and family and before God. Our spirituality is one of most treasured aspects of our relationship.

[CdnMN 0]

I am a US Pastor...we make a distinction between religious ceremonies and legal ones. A legal ceremony where you are married by "Elvis" in Vegas hold more validity.

In Canada there are several facets that make a marriage legal.

1) The couple must obtain a valid marriage license

2) The must be a minimum of 5 people present - the couple, two adult witnesses and a legal officiant

3) The couple must orally declare their consent to marriage.

4) There must be a way to object (either posting of bans or the ever populare "If anyone can show just cause why this couple should not be joined together...)

5) The couple must be pronounced husband and wife in public

6) The officiant, in declaring them husband and wife, must state under which authority he is acting. (By the power vested in me by the province of ....)

If none of this is included, it is technically not a legal marriage....however...there is a sticky point. Something about if people attending where led to believe it was an actual marriage, there could be problems.

This was the law as of about 5 years ago and may have changed.

I can't see a non-legal ceremony being an issue...or even needing to be brought up. The couple is NOT married. A civil ceremony could easily be done in Canada at a later day at almost any city hall...providing the couple gets a valid marriage license.

CdnMn

[PastorJJJ1958 0]

In Canada there are several facets that make a marriage legal.

1) The couple must obtain a valid marriage license

2) The must be a minimum of 5 people present - the couple, two adult witnesses and a legal officiant

3) The couple must orally declare their consent to marriage.

4) There must be a way to object (either posting of bans or the ever populare "If anyone can show just cause why this couple should not be joined together...)

5) The couple must be pronounced husband and wife in public

6) The officiant, in declaring them husband and wife, must state under which authority he is acting. (By the power vested in me by the province of ....)

If none of this is included, it is technically not a legal marriage....however...there is a sticky point. Something about if people attending where led to believe it was an actual marriage, there could be problems.

This was the law as of about 5 years ago and may have changed.

I can't see a non-legal ceremony being an issue...or even needing to be brought up. The couple is NOT married. A civil ceremony could easily be done in Canada at a later day at almost any city hall...providing the couple gets a valid marriage license.

CdnMn

The "non legal" religious ceremony would take place in the US and the (later) legal one would happen in the US also. Everyone attending would know that they would be attending a ceremony blessed by God but not a legally recognized by the US or Canada. Then she would return to Canada, when everything had cleared immigration, she would come in on her VISA and would have a civil ceremony in Vegas almost immediately.

[ashenflowers 5]

What I'm about to say isn't going to be all that helpful, and I'm sorry if I come off as bitter about it, but hey, I am.

I think all of us have had to make changes or sacrifices to our wedding plans in one way or another. I know I certainly did, and I'm still sad that we couldn't have all our friends and family there. We are close to them too... but it's just not feasible for them to all come out here, or for us to go back to have another ceremony in Canada.

So... ultimately, if it's really important to you both to have a spiritual ceremony with friends/family present.... DO IT. Or you will regret it. However, keep in mind any risks, and consider if it's best to do it AFTER the civil wedding (i.e. in 2011, instead of this year). Personally, if given the option/chance, I would do it after.

Also, I'm not sure where you're from vs. where you're going to, but why have the civil in Vegas? Is there a reason for that? You can have your civil ceremony anywhere in the U.S. of course...

That said, the K-1 visa process can take much more than 5 months, just so you're prepared. I'm sure you said that just because Sept is 5 months from now, but just wanted you to know. Have you applied for the K-1 already? Or is that still in the works? Just curious. The other thing you might want to consider, is if you have already applied for the K-1, especially if you did so in February (though I'm doubting it because if you had you'd have known it takes forever ), then you might hit a string of luck and end up with needing to plan your move and/or interview around the same time as your wedding. That, to me, would be way too stressful. If you haven't already applied, then you likely won't run into this problem. lol

[Hugglebuggles 60]

I'm actually a little surprised by the reactions in this thread. I've seen a couple threads on a similar subject in the past where the OP suggested a "celebration" wedding before the legal ceremony and generally nobody seems to have a problem with it.

I'm guessing the distinction here is the religious aspect? Because as far as I know, growing up a good Catholic girl, any marriage that takes place within the church by a catholic priest is considered a legal marriage. If there is no marriage license then you simply have no evidence of a legal, registered marriage, but if challenged in court, this type of wedding could easily be considered legally binding. At least, that is the lesson I have been taught by a religious education. Of course, as far as the Catholic church is concerned if you are not married within the walls of the church you are not considered married at all.

Personally, since you just filed for the K-1 in April, I would seriously consider withdrawing your petition, getting married in September on the day you want, 100% legally, and then applying for the proper spousal visa. That is the less risky, and best course of action in my opinion. It's all about priorities.

[ashenflowers 5]

Personally, since you just filed for the K-1 in April, I would seriously consider withdrawing your petition, getting married in September on the day you want, 100% legally, and then applying for the proper spousal visa. That is the less risky, and best course of action in my opinion. It's all about priorities.

That's a good point as well. You've already had frequent visits (12 visits in less than a year is stellar compared with how often some couples are able to see each other, or NOT see each other, while waiting for visas), so you can continue to visit while waiting. It won't be fun to wait, but you see each other often enough that the time will go by quickly. Then you can have one legal and religious ceremony together, and can apply for the CR1 Visa, which negates the need for AOS later on... in the long run, it could possibly be the better option. All depends on what you're willing to do I suppose. Check out the comparison guides to see what looks good to you.

[trailmix 77]

I would choose CR1, at this point, as my last option if there was nothing else on offer

It's funny how each of us see this differently - in terms of which visa to apply for. At least if they get the ball rolling on the K1 now, they should be in the U.S. living together by the end of this year.

Why they would want to wait another 5 months, then get married and apply for a CR1, which might get them together by say May-June 2011 - I just don't get that - but hey, that's me (this is aside from the whole have a religious ceremony first question).

Edited April 13, 2010 by trailmix

[PastorJJJ1958 0]

I would choose CR1, at this point, as my last option if there was nothing else on offer

It's funny how each of us see this differently - in terms of which visa to apply for. At least if they get the ball rolling on the K1 now, they should be in the U.S. living together by the end of this year.

Why they would want to wait another 5 months, then get married and apply for a CR1, which might get them together by say May-June 2011 - I just don't get that - but hey, that's me (this is aside from the whole have a religious ceremony first question).

I mailed form 129F on April 2nd and we received notification from the government on April 5th. We met on eHarmony in July and since October we have made a combined twelve trips back. In fact I will be traveling to Canada at the end of the this month for a few days to see her.

I want to thank everyone for their advice.

We want to do this the legal and proper way with no lieing, no cheating, no deception, while also obeying the Laws of the USA and Canada. But, I just do not see what interest the US or Canadian government would have in a purely religious ceremony where legal matters were not involved-perhaps this is because I am protestant. It seems simple to me (but what do I know?) to have a ceremony, where we pledge faithfulness to each other and God while being surrounded by friends and family. Realizing that she is only here for a short visit, obeying the law of the land, she returns to Canada, while we wait for the legal aspect to run its proper course. Then when we have the Visa in hand, we get legally married (Vegas is just a metaphor for a easy no hassle civil wedding ceremony)in the U.S. and live here.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

If you decide to pursue a religious ceremony, then consider using someone who is not ordained or recognized as the officiant. If the individual has no right to 'marry' anyone even in a religious capacity but is conducting the ceremony to follow the religious ceremony, that might be the way around the difficulty. In Canada and the US, ordained religious individuals are authorized to perform legally binding marriages and it will be hard to differentiate between their 'legal religious' marriage ceremonies and a 'non-legal religious' marriage ceremony. Make sure the officiant is not authorized to perform a marriage and you avoid that problem. The ceremony can still be in a church and in front of God, your friends and family but it isn't a legal marriage since the person conducting the ceremony has no authorization.

A cousin of mine years ago moved to the US on a fiance visa. His family were not able to attend due to the distances involved and the number of family members, so the weekend before he left they held a 'religious' ceremony with a family friend officiating just so the family could join in the celebration. The family friend had no right to perform legal marriages and the ceremony was just that - ceremonial and not legal. They married legally the following weekend in the US.

You might want to check into this possibility as well.

[PastorJJJ1958 0]

If you decide to pursue a religious ceremony, then consider using someone who is not ordained or recognized as the officiant. If the individual has no right to 'marry' anyone even in a religious capacity but is conducting the ceremony to follow the religious ceremony, that might be the way around the difficulty. In Canada and the US, ordained religious individuals are authorized to perform legally binding marriages and it will be hard to differentiate between their 'legal religious' marriage ceremonies and a 'non-legal religious' marriage ceremony. Make sure the officiant is not authorized to perform a marriage and you avoid that problem. The ceremony can still be in a church and in front of God, your friends and family but it isn't a legal marriage since the person conducting the ceremony has no authorization.

A cousin of mine years ago moved to the US on a fiance visa. His family were not able to attend due to the distances involved and the number of family members, so the weekend before he left they held a 'religious' ceremony with a family friend officiating just so the family could join in the celebration. The family friend had no right to perform legal marriages and the ceremony was just that - ceremonial and not legal. They married legally the following weekend in the US.

You might want to check into this possibility as well.

Thank you...will do! I do not how a ceremony can be legally binding without a marriage license?! The laws are pretty strict about this in the US. Since we are not living together we cannot fall under any kind of "common law marriage." It is kind of like when a couple renews their wedding vows after decades of marriage - they will come up in front of the church, say their vows, and the church is packed with friends and relatives. Perhaps it is different in Canada and you do not lead a marriage license from the local government to get married.