Watch National Geographic

[mox 298]

Yeah, Mox, but that Latin Cross is still standing in the desert, is it not? If you walk around DC you'll see all kinds of religious artifacts in government settings. There are books and videos on the subject.

Which is apropos of nothing.

The real important thing to remember is the King of England invented a religion to suite his needs.

Which, coincidentally enough, is how every religion was invented.

American patriots saw that and also saw a need for religious freedom. Our forefathers were more concerned with not repeating the evils of the king than in engineering a hardcore secular society. Most of our common laws come from Moses and the Commandments which we inherited from England.

And I'm sure you have a source for this?

Anyway, let's put your theory to the test. Let's take a look at the 10 commandments:

1-3 God is God, don't put any other god in front of him, false idols bad.

4 is about keeping the sabbath holy.

5, honor your father and mother. (which is a nice sentiment, more people should do it)

6-8 are the big ones: don't murder, don't steal, don't commit adultery. Only 2 of these 3 are illegal.

9 is about not bearing false witness. Only illegal in a court of law or legal testimony.

10 is about not coveting your neighbor's wife or his stuff. (coveting your neighbor's husband, totally cool I guess)

So out of the 10 commandments, only 2 of them are outright illegal, and only one more is illegal sometimes. 2 (sometimes 3) out of 10 is a pretty miserable statistic to claim our entire legal system is based on it. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark here and say that ancient China, having no knowledge of Moses, had laws forbidding stealing, killing, and bearing false witness.

The notion that laws and morality come from the Bible is completely ridiculous. I don't need a commandment to know that I shouldn't kill--hell, we knew this back in the day when we were still roaming the forests and grasslands of Africa and formed ourselves into social tribes for protection and better utilization of resources. Chimpanzees know this.

Our legal system has a direct lineage with the English legal system, yes. Which is based on the Magna Carta. Which is based on Western (mostly Greek) philosophy.

Edited April 30, 2010 by mox

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I always find it amazing that human beings can still debate a 2000 year old fairy tale. Jesus...God...Sarah the Wingnut Palin, and ol glory.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Which is apropos of nothing.

Which, coincidentally enough, is how every religion was invented.

And I'm sure you have a source for this?

Anyway, let's put your theory to the test. Let's take a look at the 10 commandments:

1-3 God is God, don't put any other god in front of him, false idols bad.

4 is about keeping the sabbath holy.

5, honor your father and mother. (which is a nice sentiment, more people should do it)

6-8 are the big ones: don't murder, don't steal, don't commit adultery. Only 2 of these 3 are illegal.

9 is about not bearing false witness. Only illegal in a court of law or legal testimony.

10 is about not coveting your neighbor's wife or his stuff. (coveting your neighbor's husband, totally cool I guess)

So out of the 10 commandments, only 2 of them are outright illegal, and only one more is illegal sometimes. 2 (sometimes 3) out of 10 is a pretty miserable statistic to claim our entire legal system is based on it. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark here and say that ancient China, having no knowledge of Moses, had laws forbidding stealing, killing, and bearing false witness.

The notion that laws and morality come from the Bible is completely ridiculous. I don't need a commandment to know that I shouldn't kill--hell, we knew this back in the day when we were still roaming the forests and grasslands of Africa and formed ourselves into social tribes for protection and better utilization of resources. Chimpanzees know this.

Our legal system has a direct lineage with the English legal system, yes. Which is based on the Magna Carta. Which is based on Western (mostly Greek) philosophy.

Not a religious guy but I do know that no more than two of our laws are even loosley based on commandments, and those two ...stealing and killing predate the commandments by thousands of years at least. The rest are no more than suggestions. Adultery is not a crime, neither is dishonoring your parents. Coveting? Don't make me laugh. Coveting is the basis of our economy. Remember the sabbath? The WHAT?

[mox 298]

stealing and killing predate the commandments by thousands of years at least.

Millions of years, actually. Killing and stealing are one of the first things animals abandon within their own groups when they form social groups. It's the very reason social groups are formed, even amongst animals--protection of life, protection of property (usually in the form of food). We see these social rules within primates, we even see these rules in rats. Killing and stealing were taboo even before mammals resembled anything more than small mice.

And in my opinion, if there really were a god, he completely blew his chance at handing down commandments that would have bettered mankind rather than being mostly redundant and out of date. He should have gone with laws like "you will not kill or persecute, especially in my name," "you will not enslave any human being," "you will treat men and women as equals," and "take care of those less fortunate than you."

[visaveteran 1]

The Latin Cross is a Christian symbol of great importance AND it sits happily in the middle of government land. There is no nearby Jewish or Muslim icons. Just the Christian one. So much for the absolutist position you espouse. Fortunately, the true meaning of the Constitution is reemerging.

The 10 Commandments are clearly not driving modern law but represent the center of Judeo-Christian values which until recent history were seen as equating to American values. Only in modern times do we see the pluralistic sentiments emerge. Most early scholars connect the rise of our capitalist society with the hard working, god fearing values of the Protestant Ethic as elaborated by Max Weber and other early social writers.

Even in fairly recent times we see Christian values entering the political realm. Ronald Regan declared a National Bible Day during his presidency. The rise of abortion and gay rights and other contemporary issues along with the vast immigration of non Christians has turned America into a far more secular country than it was in the 1800s and into the mid 1990s.

[mox 298]

The Latin Cross is a Christian symbol of great importance AND it sits happily in the middle of government land. There is no nearby Jewish or Muslim icons. Just the Christian one. So much for the absolutist position you espouse. Fortunately, the true meaning of the Constitution is reemerging.

The 10 Commandments are clearly not driving modern law but represent the center of Judeo-Christian values which until recent history were seen as equating to American values. Only in modern times do we see the pluralistic sentiments emerge. Most early scholars connect the rise of our capitalist society with the hard working, god fearing values of the Protestant Ethic as elaborated by Max Weber and other early social writers.

Even in fairly recent times we see Christian values entering the political realm. Ronald Regan declared a National Bible Day during his presidency. The rise of abortion and gay rights and other contemporary issues along with the vast immigration of non Christians has turned America into a far more secular country than it was in the 1800s and into the mid 1990s.

I really don't know what your point is. Yes, the cross is still standing, and yes the Supreme Court ruled it could stay. My opinion is that they got it wrong, but yes I acknowledge that it's still there. It is, as I said, apropos of nothing.

What you call "pluralistic sentiments" is called change. You could have called slavery and women's rights "pluralistic sentiments" also. The fact that there wasn't a gay rights movement in 1777 doesn't mean that gay people didn't exist, and it doesn't mean our Constitution isn't flexible enough to protect them. And the fact that women got themselves to a point where they could challenge the right to control their own bodies also just reflects that we are a growing, changing country. In fact, there was never really a "good old days" in this country.

And I think the millions of Jews and other religions who helped found this country would be very interested to know that they apparently don't have a work ethic. Also, read your Wikipedia entry on Max Weber again. Weber's theories are far from accepted as fact.

[visaveteran 1]

I made no Wikipedia reference to Max Weber...I studied him in college. You're sweeping dismissal of Weber, one of the most famous and respected sociologists shows your cavalier attitude towards established credentials and accepted wisdom, shows your ignorance.

There is little question the church was the center of American life in early to mid American history including our government and legal system. Even deist Ben Franklin wanted a morning prayer before attending to government business.

The vast majority of Americans, including former slaves, were Christian. The Jewish and Christian communities share the same Judeo-Christian value system including the same work ethic. Had there been more Jews in America, we could drop the Protestant Ethic term but such was not the case.

Maybe you see feminism as a good thing...but many blame it for many social woes of the current culture. And one person's "controlling their own body," is another persons license to murder.

[mox 298]

I made no Wikipedia reference to Max Weber...I studied him in college. You're sweeping dismissal of Weber, one of the most famous and respected sociologists shows your cavalier attitude towards established credentials and accepted wisdom, shows your ignorance.

This is why I frequently lose interested in talking with you. Read what I wrote. I certainly didn't "sweeping[ly]" dismiss him. I said that he's not without his critics, and he's certainly not the last word on sociology.

There is little question the church was the center of American life in early to mid American history including our government and legal system. Even deist Ben Franklin wanted a morning prayer before attending to govern

ment business.

The vast majority of Americans, including former slaves, were Christian. The Jewish and Christian communities share the same Judeo-Christian value system including the same work ethic. Had there been more Jews in America, we could drop the Protestant Ethic term but such was not the case.

So your argument is because most people in this country were/are Christians, our government is therefore Christian. It's simply not true. The founding fathers were Christians, and put together a secular nation. It really is that easy.

Why is it that Christians never have a straightforward answer for anything? It always has to be justified through ANYTHING but the facts. If we were a Christian nation, it would be part of the Constitution. It's not, therefore we are not. And in fact the separation of church and state is even written into the Constitution.

Maybe you see feminism as a good thing...but many blame it for many social woes of the current culture. And one person's "controlling their own body," is another persons license to murder.

I'll let someone else tackle this one. I'm going to give it exactly the amount of time it deserves.

[visaveteran 1]

This is why I frequently lose interested in talking with you. Read what I wrote. I certainly didn't "sweeping[ly]" dismiss him. I said that he's not without his critics, and he's certainly not the last word on sociology.

So your argument is because most people in this country were/are Christians, our government is therefore Christian. It's simply not true. The founding fathers were Christians, and put together a secular nation. It really is that easy.

Why is it that Christians never have a straightforward answer for anything? It always has to be justified through ANYTHING but the facts. If we were a Christian nation, it would be part of the Constitution. It's not, therefore we are not. And in fact the separation of church and state is even written into the Constitution.

I'll let someone else tackle this one. I'm going to give it exactly the amount of time it deserves.

If you say Weber had his critics, name them. Elaborate. If he's not the last word on sociology, give us a sense of his opponents issues with him. Otherwise, your comments are empty and useless.

We were a defacto Christian nation for a long time and certainly Christian beliefs impacted on government. This is undisputed. This impact extended into recent times. For example, when I was in primary school, we used to have a morning prayer and we had a Christmas festival each year. And when I worked for the federal government, we always had "Christmas parties" at our work location. Only in recent history has America, through pluralism, ramped up immigration of non Christians, the chic and hip view of embracing atheism, the rise of popular victimization and other social movements has America changed.

Nobody wants to tackle abortion. It's dirty business. And we VJ men, some of us anyway, are living proof of the break down of male/female relations in the USA. And please, spare me the "I met my Russian wife by accident at the bus stop" story. As for you Mox, if we are to believe your stories, you tried on several occasions to find a Russia wife before being successful. Nothing random about it. You clearly wanted a Russia wife.

[mox 298]

My mistake, I was under the assumption you'd finally decided to partake in normal conversation.

I've no more time to spend on your inanity. Welcome to my ignore list.

Edited May 2, 2010 by mox

[visaveteran 1]

My mistake, I was under the assumption you'd finally decided to partake in normal conversation.

I've no more time to spend on your inanity. Welcome to my ignore list.

Mox, no conversation is every normal with you for very long. It comes with the territory. You like it that way. IMO, the forum gives you a desperately needed sense of superiority you obviously crave. But I didn't figure you for a "cut and run" type.

Welcome to my "Who gives a rat's azz?"

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

If you say Weber had his critics, name them. Elaborate. If he's not the last word on sociology, give us a sense of his opponents issues with him. Otherwise, your comments are empty and useless.

We were a defacto Christian nation for a long time and certainly Christian beliefs impacted on government. This is undisputed. This impact extended into recent times. For example, when I was in primary school, we used to have a morning prayer and we had a Christmas festival each year. And when I worked for the federal government, we always had "Christmas parties" at our work location. Only in recent history has America, through pluralism, ramped up immigration of non Christians, the chic and hip view of embracing atheism, the rise of popular victimization and other social movements has America changed.

Nobody wants to tackle abortion. It's dirty business. And we VJ men, some of us anyway, are living proof of the break down of male/female relations in the USA. And please, spare me the "I met my Russian wife by accident at the bus stop" story. As for you Mox, if we are to believe your stories, you tried on several occasions to find a Russia wife before being successful. Nothing random about it. You clearly wanted a Russia wife.

Um, after living in Ukraine for two years, I would accept nothing BUT a Ukrainian wife. However I did meet mine by accident at the airport (waiting to buy bus tickets) in Prague, CZ Republic of all places. Oh well. Had I not met her when I did I would have sought out a Ukrainian wife. I am not stupid, why would I settle for less?

I don't know about the breakdown of "male female relationships" in the USA but I sure as heck had no interest in an American wife after being spoiled in Ukraine.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

Um, after living in Ukraine for two years, I would accept nothing BUT a Ukrainian wife. However I did meet mine by accident at the airport (waiting to buy bus tickets) in Prague, CZ Republic of all places. Oh well. Had I not met her when I did I would have sought out a Ukrainian wife. I am not stupid, why would I settle for less?

I don't know about the breakdown of "male female relationships" in the USA but I sure as heck had no interest in an American wife after being spoiled in Ukraine.

I was spoiled whilst languishing in the back of a semi parked in back of a Super Wal-Mart in the hot Arizona sun.

I can't remember if that was my spouse who opened the door of trailer or not. But I think all the hot air knocked her out.

[mox 298]

Um, after living in Ukraine for two years, I would accept nothing BUT a Ukrainian wife. However I did meet mine by accident at the airport (waiting to buy bus tickets) in Prague, CZ Republic of all places. Oh well. Had I not met her when I did I would have sought out a Ukrainian wife. I am not stupid, why would I settle for less?

I don't know about the breakdown of "male female relationships" in the USA but I sure as heck had no interest in an American wife after being spoiled in Ukraine.

Really? How interesting. I don't think I've ever heard you mention this in every other post.

[Cixelsyd 1]

I was spoiled whilst languishing in the back of a semi parked in back of a Super Wal-Mart in the hot Arizona sun.

I can't remember if that was my spouse who opened the door of trailer or not. But I think all the hot air knocked her out.

Sounds like something strait out of a romance novel. All hot and Walmarty.