Watch National Geographic

[LvivLovers 39]

Fair enough. On the other hand, what's the proof that this claim is legit? I've seen 2 photos: one of a man standing next to what could easily be the inside of a cabin, and another showing a plank of wood that looks old. The article even said they found compartments where animals could have been housed--where is this? Where is a wide-angle shot of the find? If there were any evidence at all, I'd be more careful in researching the claims. Unfortunately, throughout the history of ark finding, they've all been shown to be either inconclusive or outright hoaxes.

If I said I'd found evidence that some aspect of Christianity had been disproven, and then I showed you a couple photographs that could have been taken in any context, would you believe me? Why would you be so eager to believe these claims?

But hey, my offer still stands if this find is proven.

There are quite a few photos in different articles as well as video. But of course, even that proves nothing...no matter how many photos there are, it will take time for independent scientists to prove or debunk it. I, myself, am extremely skeptical, but I haven't ruled anything out one way or another until I see the final results. That would sure shake things up a bit though! Here's another article with some more details from the guy you cited yesterday (who believed it to be a fraud but couldn't 100% rule it out either) as well as more skeptics. It does make me a bit curious how hoaxsters would have gotten all that wood up there and embedded it in ice and rock as well as they did. That's a lot of trouble to go through and doesn't sound like they would have gotten enough money out of it for it to be worth it.

[visaveteran 1]

As a somewhat related story, at least concerning separation of church and state, the Supreme Court just ruled to allow the desert Latin Cross honoring WWI dead to remain on government land. That's a big decision I would think setting back the efforts of atheists to remove all religious artifacts from government sites. This is a major defeat for them.

Ah, sanity and common sense do still exist!

[LvivLovers 39]

As a somewhat related story, at least concerning separation of church and state, the Supreme Court just ruled to allow the desert Latin Cross honoring WWI dead to remain on government land. That's a big decision I would think setting back the efforts of atheists to remove all religious artifacts from government sites. This is a major defeat for them.

Ah, sanity and common sense do still exist!

I saw that and was pleasantly surprised!

[mox 298]

Lviv, do a Google News search on this story. Not a single real geologist is taking this story seriously. Noteworthy is the absence of continued coverage by any of the main media outlets.

The Supreme Court ruling was unfortunate, and hopefully it'll be overturned down the road. Whether you are a believer or not, this ruling should concern you a lot. You and visaveteran like the ruling because you are Christians. But here's a thought:

Islam is the largest growing religion in the United States.

How would you feel about going to a national park and seeing a crescent moon and star erected? How about during the month of Ramadan if your capital were to put up an Islamic display? How about if courtrooms started displaying the five pillars of Islam? What if your children were made to pray towards the Kaaba during school each day in school?

You might think "sanity and common sense" have returned, but it's only because you won't see the forest for the trees. Turning this country into a nation where the lines of religion and state are blurred will have consequences you can't even imagine, and none of them good.

Edited April 29, 2010 by mox

[LvivLovers 39]

Lviv, do a Google News search on this story. Not a single real geologist is taking this story seriously. Noteworthy is the absence of continued coverage by any of the main media outlets.

I'm not too concerned about that. This is not actually a new discovery...they've known about this site for more than a year and it didn't get much coverage. There have been a lot of boys crying wolf here and EVERYONE is skeptical. And rightly so. But if by some miracle it did pan out...then you'd be hearing it all over the place. Otherwise, it will be a short blurb and disappear.

The Supreme Court ruling was unfortunate, and hopefully it'll be overturned down the road. Whether you are a believer or not, this ruling should concern you a lot. You and visaveteran like the ruling because you are Christians. But here's a thought:

Islam is the largest growing religion in the United States.

How would you feel about going to a national park and seeing a crescent moon and star erected? How about during the month of Ramadan if your capital were to put up an Islamic display? How about if courtrooms started displaying the five pillars of Islam? What if your children were made to pray towards the Kaaba during school each day in school?

You might think "sanity and common sense" have returned, but it's only because you won't see the forest for the trees. Turning this country into a nation where the lines of religion and state are blurred will have consequences you can't even imagine, and none of them good.

I actually have mixed feelings on this and not just because I'm a Christian. On the one hand, it wouldn't bother me to have an Islamic display or display from any other religion as long as it doesn't get out of hand and become overpowering. I have no problem with prayer to any diety in school as long as everyone has the right to choose whether or not to participate. As for this particular cross, if I remember correctly, I think it had been there for a very long time, so imo, even if it were against the law to do such things in the future, I think it should be grandfathered in. In other words, prevent erecting new displays, but you don't have to retroactively go and take down things that were deemed acceptable in the past. I can see both sides of this though to be honest. I believe in freedom of religion or lack thereof but I also think it was our country's Christian past that made the USA the great country that it is and don't think the founding fathers ever would have supported the country being completely devoid of any expression of Christianity.

[visaveteran 1]

Lviv, do a Google News search on this story. Not a single real geologist is taking this story seriously. Noteworthy is the absence of continued coverage by any of the main media outlets.

The Supreme Court ruling was unfortunate, and hopefully it'll be overturned down the road. Whether you are a believer or not, this ruling should concern you a lot. You and visaveteran like the ruling because you are Christians. But here's a thought:

Islam is the largest growing religion in the United States.

How would you feel about going to a national park and seeing a crescent moon and star erected? How about during the month of Ramadan if your capital were to put up an Islamic display? How about if courtrooms started displaying the five pillars of Islam? What if your children were made to pray towards the Kaaba during school each day in school?

You might think "sanity and common sense" have returned, but it's only because you won't see the forest for the trees. Turning this country into a nation where the lines of religion and state are blurred will have consequences you can't even imagine, and none of them good.

Mox, you miss the key issue...heritage. America comes from a Christian heritage. Islam will never impact America because there is no history, heritage or tradition. You won't see "In Allah We Trust" on money bills. If I went to Syria, I'd expect to see Islamic icons all over the place. That is the right context.

At one point in time states actually had state religions and nobody freaked out. The separation of church and state issue does not really exists. The government simply cannot create a government sponsored religion. That's it. That's why senators can have prayer lunches and ministers make prayers at official functions. Only atheists and the ACLU really give a rat's azz about this issue.

Again, thank God for common sense.

[mox 298]

but I also think it was our country's Christian past that made the USA the great country that it is and don't think the founding fathers ever would have supported the country being completely devoid of any expression of Christianity.

See, this is the argument that drives me up a freaking wall.

Freedom of speech: guaranteed by the constitution, cannot be abridged.

Right to bear arms: you will take my gun from my cold dead hands.

Innocent until proven guilty: Cornerstone of our justice system.

Separation of religion and state: Yes but our country was founded and built on Christianity.

I call bullsh1t. Either the Constitution matters, or it doesn't. Either we are a secular nation, or we aren't. You can't have it both ways. By all means, put crosses and icons and nativity scenes and copies of the 10 commandments on your own private property. But the state belongs to the people, and should have absolutely no bias towards one religion or the other. I guarantee that if a group of Muslims got together and erected a crescent and moon commemorating Muslim soldiers who served in the US military, it'd have been uprooted before Kennedy's ink was dry. And rightly so. But the same should hold for any religious markers on state land.

[mox 298]

Mox, you miss the key issue...heritage. America comes from a Christian heritage.

See my previous post.

If you want to talk about heritage, the original immigrant Americans came to this land to escape religion. It's the whole reason why we have separation of church and state.

We have a heritage of slavery too. I don't think it's missed.

Islam will never impact America because there is no history

And as I said before, Islam is kicking Christianity's butt when it comes to growth in the US. Within the next 50 years there will be more Muslims than Christians. You should re-think this statement, especially given Islam's success at expanding and assimilating. (the good news is that Atheism is the fastest growing belief-system in the US. So there's still hope.)

At one point in time states actually had state religions and nobody freaked out.

Errrr...what? I've never heard of any US state having a "state religion." And if there were, it was either dropped in favor of sanity or ruled unconstitutional long ago. (and there was a time when "nobody freaked out" about slavery either. Just because something is considered a norm doesn't make it so.)

The separation of church and state issue does not really exists. The government simply cannot create a government sponsored religion. That's it. That's why senators can have prayer lunches and ministers make prayers at official functions. Only atheists and the ACLU really give a rat's azz about this issue.

The first amendment states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Also read up on on Jefferson and Maddison's writings about the "hedge of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world." The founding fathers always intended for religion to be completely separate from the state.

And hey, even Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

[SMR 368]

See, this is the argument that drives me up a freaking wall.

Freedom of speech: guaranteed by the constitution, cannot be abridged.

Right to bear arms: you will take my gun from my cold dead hands.

Innocent until proven guilty: Cornerstone of our justice system.

Separation of religion and state: Yes but our country was founded and built on Christianity.

I call bullsh1t. Either the Constitution matters, or it doesn't. Either we are a secular nation, or we aren't. You can't have it both ways. By all means, put crosses and icons and nativity scenes and copies of the 10 commandments on your own private property. But the state belongs to the people, and should have absolutely no bias towards one religion or the other. I guarantee that if a group of Muslims got together and erected a crescent and moon commemorating Muslim soldiers who served in the US military, it'd have been uprooted before Kennedy's ink was dry. And rightly so. But the same should hold for any religious markers on state land.

Read the Bill of Rights again. It doesn't say separation of religion and state. It simply says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." A cross somewhere does not equal an act of congress.

[mox 298]

The supreme court has upheld the separation of church and state for close to two centuries. In fact, this is the first departure from this position in modern history, passed by a very divided supreme court.

And the reason is very simple: once religion becomes integrated in the state, then we start to become governed by religion. In a country where Islam is the fastest growing religion, do you really want our laws to start being based on the Koran?

[LvivLovers 39]

Follow-up on Noah's Ark...pretty interesting read:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/30/noahs-ark-hoax-claim-doesnt-deter-believers/?test=latestnews

I guess Fox is following up...hoax or not.

As to separation of chuch/state...all I can say is I think due to the founding father's oversight, they never imagined that Christianity would ever be removed out of our government. I think they just wanted freedom to practice whatever they wanted, mainly variations of Christianity. I could be wrong on that as I've never done any research on this, but that's my opinion until proved otherwise. It doesn't make sense to call for 100% separation of church/state and mint "In God We Trust" on all your money, mention the Creator and God in all your speeches and important documents, etc. There's constantly a lot of interpretation of exactly what is meant by various parts of our founding documents and ammendments...they weren't always clear, and in this case, I think they just made bad assumptions and omitted things they should have included. Again, just my opinion.

[mox 298]

Follow-up on Noah's Ark...pretty interesting read:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/30/noahs-ark-hoax-claim-doesnt-deter-believers/?test=latestnews

I guess Fox is following up...hoax or not.

Well damn, tip me over with a feather. I am surprised. Although it's interesting that the first article was in the "Science and Technology" section, while this article is in the "Religion" section. It is nevertheless unexpected.

Although let's face it. Any ark finding can immediately be dismissed simply because it's a myth. The geological record proves there was no historical flood. The geological record also proves Mt. Ararat was never submerged. Saying that the ark has been found is like saying the Girdle of Hippolyte or the Staff of Ra has been found--you can dismiss it immediately because it's myth.

As to separation of chuch/state...all I can say is I think due to the founding father's oversight, they never imagined that Christianity would ever be removed out of our government. I think they just wanted freedom to practice whatever they wanted, mainly variations of Christianity. I could be wrong on that as I've never done any research on this, but that's my opinion until proved otherwise.

Glad you caveatted your statement with this, because yeah, you're wrong. Thomas Jefferson, a deeply religious man, was passionate about keeping religion out of government. His writings are filled with this philosophy. In fact, the phrase "separation of church and state" comes straight from Thomas Jefferson. Wikipedia has a pretty good article on Jefferson's concept of a "wall of separation," and the biography The Road to Monticello: The Life and Mind of Thomas Jefferson gives a lot of background concerning his thoughts on the subject, and is probably available in your local library. James Madison, another deeply religious man, was also a vehement supporter of these separations. Jefferson, Madison, and the other founders saw what the integration of church and state had done to Europe, and how it was used for tyrannical ends. They wanted to make sure that our new country didn't suffer the same fate. The fact that most of our founders were religious men and yet still understood that government must be secular is actually a pretty amazing testament.

Anyway, the proof is out there if you're interested. This isn't a gray issue, nor is it speculation. The founders wanted absolute separation between church and state, and although deeply religious, would be aghast to walk into a courtroom and see the 10 commandments.

[LvivLovers 39]

Anyway, the proof is out there if you're interested. This isn't a gray issue, nor is it speculation. The founders wanted absolute separation between church and state, and although deeply religious, would be aghast to walk into a courtroom and see the 10 commandments.

And yet they still chose to put "endowed by their Creator" in the Declaration of Independence and "In God We Trust" on our currency. I'd contend if they were around today, instead of being aghast at seeing the 10 commandments, they'd be aghast at the corruption of our values as a society. They might rethink the whole separation idea after that.

[mox 298]

And yet they still chose to put "endowed by their Creator" in the Declaration of Independence and "In God We Trust" on our currency.

The reason phrases like "endowed by their Creator" were used is simply that these men were a product of their time. Notice, however, that they didn't say "endowed by Jesus" or "endowed by Mohammed." They didn't reject God, quite the contrary. But they knew that religion didn't belong in government.

I'd contend if they were around today, instead of being aghast at seeing the 10 commandments, they'd be aghast at the corruption of our values as a society. They might rethink the whole separation idea after that.

So you're going from "I'm pretty sure the founders never intended to separate church and state" to "I'm pretty sure the founders would realize they got it wrong if they saw the world as it is today."

I mean, if you want to have the argument that we would be better off in a theocracy, we can certainly have that discussion. But the fact is that the separation of church and state isn't just a liberal conspiracy, unless you want to consider the founding fathers liberal conspirators. They meant exactly what it sounds like: secular government. There's hundreds and hundreds of pages of history to back it up.

[visaveteran 1]

Yeah, Mox, but that Latin Cross is still standing in the desert, is it not? If you walk around DC you'll see all kinds of religious artifacts in government settings. There are books and videos on the subject.

The real important thing to remember is the King of England invented a religion to suite his needs. American patriots saw that and also saw a need for religious freedom. Our forefathers were more concerned with not repeating the evils of the king than in engineering a hardcore secular society. Most of our common laws come from Moses and the Commandments which we inherited from England.

The famous sociologist, Max Weber, wrote a seminal piece called "Capitalism and the Protestant Ethic." He saw our society succeeding from the forces of capitalism and the hard working ethic and beliefs from our Protestant upbringing.