Do I have to love (or just like) the US of A?

[Noah&Diah 2]

You definitley do not have to love the USA. Bottom line comes down to this for all of us I hope....I could live anywhere I have friends and family. Location is not as important as the company we keep. My wife is from the Philippines and I love it there as much as I love it here...maybe a litter more in fact. I grew up in the military and have been serving myself for 13 years, I've been many place and I've always enjoyed each place..even Iraq. If you have good people around you then you can hopefully love the time you've had there not neccesarily the place.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

EmVee,

you make some good points, and being bashed by the ignorant is part of the process.

Me, personally, I love capitalism, and I hate socialism. I love to make money, and I hate when the Government wants to take it away from me. I love freedom and I hate when the Government wants to restrict it.

But these are just phrases, empty in substance if applied maliciously and without appropriate context.

Does a capitalist want to be sick? Does he want to be dumped by his health care corporation once he gets sick? Does he wants to keep all of his earned money at the expense that his children don't get an education? Does he want his freedom go so far that everybody is free to wear guns again in daily live, like in the Wild West?

The problem is, people don't know better. I lived in 7 (or was it 8?) countries (including India for 6 months) and visited 32. I've seen and experienced quite a bit in the 52 years I'm on this Earth now, and I know very little still.

I want as much freedom as possible, and I want to keep as much money as possible, make no mistake about it. But the qualifier "possible" is the key here. I gladly pay a few hundred bucks of my money if I don't have to fear getting sick and wiped out financially because of it. I gladly pay a few hundred bucks a month so that my children can get a quality education without a $100,000 student loan. I gladly pay a hundred bucks a month so that we have a police force. And I gladly pay the 15.7% of my gross income so that I have Medicare when I'm too old to work.

People mix up socialism with social. "Public" is probably even a better term than social.

I'd embrace public (as opposed to private) police, roads, healthcare, and education. And I embrace public programs like Medicare and Medicaid. I feel it's a moral obligation of a country, and a rich one at that, to take care of its citizens' basic needs: health, security, shelter, and nourishment. Does a CEO have to make $40,000,000 a year, if in his city there are 100 veterans homeless and hungry? Or would 4,000,000 a year be enough for him, and the 36,000,000 should be distributed to the country's and citizens' cause?

It's never a all or nothing issue. It's a balance of personal freedom and public necessities that simply make sense to anybody but the dumbest of the dumb.

And. just for kicks to all those "freedom" guys: in Germany, I can drink my beer anywhere, don't have to hide behind a fence. I can take my cute little dog with me into the restaurant. I can have sex with my 16 year-old girlfriend without becoming a felon and sex offender. In Sweden, I can drink and drive, as long as I'm not over the legal limit of 0.08%. And in the Netherlands, I can smoke pot. So much for the unlimited freedom in America.

[Otto 83]

People mix up socialism with social.

Thank you JB... Karin and I were just chatting about this exact same theme this morning.

[besaangel 18]

And. just for kicks to all those "freedom" guys: in Germany, I can drink my beer anywhere, don't have to hide behind a fence. I can take my cute little dog with me into the restaurant. I can have sex with my 16 year-old girlfriend without becoming a felon and sex offender. In Sweden, I can drink and drive, as long as I'm not over the legal limit of 0.08%. And in the Netherlands, I can smoke pot. So much for the unlimited freedom in America.

And this is why I love Bob. I was raised in both Jamaica and USA, though I spent elementary and college here, cant say I love it. Like what sachinky said; in Jamaica, I did nothing, didnt do my own laundry or cooked or anything because we had a helper. When I moved here at 6, my grandparents hired someone so we could adjust to this life in America but it was never the same. Its hard to adjust to a new life but am willing because I love my Hubby. I have no problem cooking, cleaning or washing clothes, but its a sacrifice made in leaving Jamaica.

Now on to what Bob said; I hate it when people talk about how free America is when in reality its nothing of the sort. What is freedom of speech and religion when I cant say that G.W. Bush f&%*ked up this country without persecution, or I cant have a silent prayer in school getting suspension. Its all a facade and until we realize that there is NO SUCH THING AS FREEDOM, we're screwed. But then again, we have to make the best of it as long as we stop fooling ourselves into thinking we're free. If I was truly free, then I wouldnt have to pay taxes for a year, or I could streak the neighborhood without getting arrested. So I feel like America doesn't over freedom, just the illusion of freedom.

[DeniseBill 4]

(I have not read any other people's reply's and this reply is specificially to the OP)

I feel exactly the same way you do. My country is not much different from Germany since we're pretty much neighbours. I like this country a lot, it's one hell of a beautifull country... At least from what I've seen. (Drove from Connecticut to South Carolina so yea, saw a lot already,) (i know i know, most will say, "a lot??? yeah right you haven't seen much if u drove only that". Well for me it's a lot since my country fits in New York State XD)

There has been many times where my husband said to someone, "she is from Holland" and respond was: "So you got yourself a mail-order bride. Happy to live in America?" I'm like... uhhh sure, whatever. lol. I like this country, more than my own for the looks. But I love mine for it's laws, how the government runs, etc. How I had health insurance from the moment I was born, and didn't had to pay for it till 18. And even then not having to pay much but being covered for everything and anything.

Not to forget our food, or the fact that I couldn't even drink alcohol legally here when in Holland I could since I was 16. Where I had to show on age of 20 my id for ciqs (Not smoking anymore now though =D)... I don't know, there's things I like here in USA but I would've been just as happy if he could've come to my country.

[Ronald and Elvira 0]

Is it really the idea that you love or hate the country of the USA or is the people you love or hate..America (USA) is just a piece of land like any other nation on this world.

Can you love a nation of People ...Maybe. Can you hate a country and its ways...Maybe too

To love American or the USA is to love the people of the Country.

there is much I love about this country and things I dislike also as I can say for other countries in this world all have something good or bad, likes or dislikes.

Just love the person that cared enough to love you and marry you. This is the America I love.

[nane1104 146]

Now on to what Bob said; I hate it when people talk about how free America is when in reality its nothing of the sort. What is freedom of speech and religion when I cant say that G.W. Bush f&%*ked up this country without persecution, or I cant have a silent prayer in school getting suspension. Its all a facade and until we realize that there is NO SUCH THING AS FREEDOM, we're screwed. But then again, we have to make the best of it as long as we stop fooling ourselves into thinking we're free. If I was truly free, then I wouldnt have to pay taxes for a year, or I could streak the neighborhood without getting arrested. So I feel like America doesn't over freedom, just the illusion of freedom.

That's how I feel and that's probably a major reason why I am having a hard time to fully embrace immigrating to the US. I have met and spoken to so many americans that try to tell me how great their country is, about the opportunities, the freedon, all the rights, about how great and superior the United States are and how lucky I am to have the privilege to be living here.

I usually ask them if they have ever lived outside the US and most of them haven't and I'm just thinking "geez, folks, you don't even know how regulated and restricted life in the US is compared to other countries."

Now, whether more or less rules make sense, are needed,...is probably very much arguable and depends on the country.

My husband for example LOVES driving on the german Autobahn, no speedlimit and if there is a speedlimit, it's still much faster than on any american highway or Interstate. He always jokes that they couldn't do that in the States because people don't undergo the extensive drivers training we have to do here.

So I guess some freedoms come with a price and rules that work for one country can't work for others. So I am not even going there.

Another topic I had looong, more or less serious discussions about is the fact that the US is very much dominating in international sports. Let's take the Olympics: Of course the USA wins the most medals. They are participating in about every possible discipline imaginable, have more starters and thinking about the huuge population of the US, isn't it just logical that there are more great athletes TOTAL (not per number of people) than most of the other nations have?

I mean, if I compare the total of medals won between the USA and Germany and compare how much smaller Germany is/how smaller the population is, Germany won far more medals.

Not trying to be childish here, it just ticks me off to listen to people glorifying something that put in relation, really isn't all that much....JMHO.

[Ellie-and-David 38]

I dont think getting the citizenship should be based on the criteria of "Do I love america?" either.

I plan on obtaining my citizenship because I plan on having children. Not because I LOVE LOVE LOVE the USA, but because this is where my husband and family will be. I dont ever want to be in a position where I could be deported.

I like living here. The weather is very nice, we have a better standard of living and this is where the lanky one is. I also wouldn't hesitate to head back to England, if that is where better opportunities were for us. It'll just be easier to head back to England, knowing that....should we ever want to move back to America, we can. Without having to go through the visa process again.

Gorram....I miss that healthcare system though. I miss the piece of mind that came with the NHS.

And back bacon.

Healthcare and back bacon.

And my mum.

[Rob and Jill 82]

So, I read every post here from everyone who has posted thus far and this is what I think.

Of course you don't have to LOVE America.

I went to Scotland, and I LIKED it. I didn't love it. I hated the rain that came almost every single day...hello curly hair. I hated the fact that it was freaking 75 degrees in JULY and they thought it was hot. I absolutely detested the taste of the beef there...No way I could eat it if I lived there. I loved that the soda there didn't have salt in it to make me swell up like a bloated cow. I loved it that Assam tea was so cheap there (and I make him bring it to me now...lol) I loved it that you could buy fish and chips off of a truck and it was wrapped in newspaper....OMG so good. I hated that the houses are mostly townhouses and piled on top of each other, but I loved that you couldn't hear a single neighbor one time through the walls. (Tell me one apartment complex where you get that in the States.) I loved that they dropped the F-bomb on TV after 8pm on every channel. I hated that the sun didn't freaking go down until after 11 pm. I hated public transportation while I was there...(Some people in that country need to understand the concept of DEODORANT), but I loved that people brought their dogs on the bus, and the ease of getting around. I thought it was odd that women in their 50's thought it was OK to have "scene hair", and let's face it I couldn't understand a freaking thing the people from Southern Scotland said, and would promptly look at my fiance for a translation. However, as much as I thought I didn't like it there, or I should say wouldn't want to live there, I find myself missing parts of it now.

I think as it is with any relationship we make compromises, and I think chosing our place to live is a compromise whether it is because of a foreign relationship or not. (I personally don't think I could ever marry someone in the military. I HATE moving around.) We learn to like certain things, and tolerate others. I think if you are finding yourself less than pleased with America, you can always look at other countries and find things you like better. I am sure we could all sit down based on how we are raised and nit pick other countries until we're blue in the face. However, while I think it is personally fine to miss your home and miss the way things were, I look forward to rejoicing in the changes we will have in our lives together, and that is whether we live in the States, or eventually move to Scotland.

Look around. There might be something close by that reminds you of home, you might be living in a crappy town. You might be missing some regularly that you used to have all the time at home. If you can find those things and fix those small things, it might help you out. I would say this as a small bit of advice. If you don't like where you're living, don't announce it to a bunch of people who are from there. I loathe it when people come to Arkansas and say "I hate it here, there's nothing to do". (You California peeps are the WORST about it)I usually respond with "Yes, there is stuff to do, you just have to get off your #### and find it."

See if you can find that little piece of home whereever you're living.

[TOM&Riz 4]

And this is why I love Bob. I was raised in both Jamaica and USA, though I spent elementary and college here, cant say I love it. Like what sachinky said; in Jamaica, I did nothing, didnt do my own laundry or cooked or anything because we had a helper. When I moved here at 6, my grandparents hired someone so we could adjust to this life in America but it was never the same. Its hard to adjust to a new life but am willing because I love my Hubby. I have no problem cooking, cleaning or washing clothes, but its a sacrifice made in leaving Jamaica.

Now on to what Bob said; I hate it when people talk about how free America is when in reality its nothing of the sort. What is freedom of speech and religion when I cant say that G.W. Bush f&%*ked up this country without persecution, or I cant have a silent prayer in school getting suspension. Its all a facade and until we realize that there is NO SUCH THING AS FREEDOM, we're screwed. But then again, we have to make the best of it as long as we stop fooling ourselves into thinking we're free. If I was truly free, then I wouldnt have to pay taxes for a year, or I could streak the neighborhood without getting arrested. So I feel like America doesn't over freedom, just the illusion of freedom.

you are free to leave though, if you don't want to pay taxes then go live in a third world country like somalia or the philippines and you won't have to, the point is you get nothing for free weather it be freedom or rights, if you think you don't enjoy freedom in the US try spending some time in north korea or myanmar I assure you you'll have a differant perspective

Bob you are wise beyond your years

[trillium13 84]

JustBob, that was a really well written post.

I find this thread interesting-I'm the USC of the 2 of us and I asked him, have people said these things to you? (like aren't you glad you live in the US now and stuff like that) He said, oh yeah. I'm amazed really. I mean I've met plenty of other people from foreign places and it never occurred to me to ask something like that. Everywhere is different and there is good and bad every place. I'm not so arrogant to think "I'm from the USA, every other country sucks." It baffles me that people do feel that way, really.

People's ignorance isn't just to those from other countries. It happens to those of us who move from one state or one region of the country to another. I'm from upstate NY, and I moved to Texas about a year and a half ago. I'm dumbfounded by some of the things people ask me. One of my favorites was, "people in New York don't have cars, right?"

[antda 13]

(I posted this on another message thread that I started, but I thought I would post it here too, to those of you who missed my point....)

Hi Everyone,

Wow, what a lot of replies that I got here...

(sorry for the late reply though, as I'm still recovering from the flu...lol..)

Nevertheless.....

Quote

One of the rights we enjoy as Americans is the right to have this conversation right now, even if we disagree with the reason for doing so.

So yes, I do enjoy this conversation, agreements, disagreements, and everything else in between....

Again, I love being an American citizen and I CHOSE to do that, out of my own free will...

I don't regret about that decision, and if I had to do it all over again, I would....

My point of this conversation can be summed up in this way, as some others pointed out.......

Quote

I agree with this post...Im sure Ant loves being an american, and what this post is actually doing, is showing how hard it is to think of negatives about the country!!

Quote

Ant's post was not intended in a negative way...but there's always someone who gets bent and screams 'Go home if you don't like it'...please, spare us. Very few folks on VJ became citizens because they dislike America. As some intelligent individual mentioned above...Free speech is a right and one can have one's own opinions whether they agree with everyone, no one or a few others.

I (and my husband) wanted to see if see if anyone can come up with any negatives, to go alongside with the positives….

To every issue there is a good side and a bad side to it....

If we can find more in the good, than in the bad, that that says more about something, doesn't it?

I definitely had a hard time thinking of the negatives....

And because of that, it made me realize that there is more good than bad of American citizenship....

For example, politicians debate the good and bad of the issues every day (its their job!), and it is through this debate of both the positives and the negatives that issues do get brought up and eventually resolved.

The bottom line also of what I wanted to say was to make people think about things.....

I wish the US Citizenship forms and/or immigration officers did ask:

"Why do you want to or not want to to become a US Citizen"...

Now, I wonder what answers various answers would be to that one.....hmm.....

And really, it would make a lot of people "think" about this very important decision of obtaining US Citizenship...

There is no right or wrong answers as to why people want to become US Citizens...

But for whatever reason one wants to become a USC, then they should have a reason for such, and not just want to do it 'because everyone else is doing it'...

I really do want people to weight tbe pros and the cons of US Citizenship, before they pursue this path.....

Lol...I can only think of the pros/positives (which I actually mentioned in my cover letter of my US Citizenship application too....)......Which makes the negatives quite challenging for me to do.....And makes for an interesting bet!

And for the fun of it, as I mentioned before, it was for a bet...lol...

He being a natural-born USC does not fully understand what it is like going through the immigration process and in having the right to be such...

So he "challenged" me to come up with the negatives, knowing how hard that it would be for me to come up with such, especially more so that Im positive for most of the time....

(lol..we are a quirky couple that way...we like debating issues for the fun of it…lol…)

Needless to say, I lost the bet...I couldn't come up with 10 reasons in time....

On the bright side, I can come up with more positives of becoming a US Citizen, and that goes to show that I did make the right choice in being a USC after all....

Thanks again to all those that participated in this message topic…Keep up the great work of exercising the freedom of speech here in America!

Ant (I love the USA, I love my family.......)

Edited April 7, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[VanessaTony 3,567]

JustBob, that was a really well written post.

I find this thread interesting-I'm the USC of the 2 of us and I asked him, have people said these things to you? (like aren't you glad you live in the US now and stuff like that) He said, oh yeah. I'm amazed really. I mean I've met plenty of other people from foreign places and it never occurred to me to ask something like that. Everywhere is different and there is good and bad every place. I'm not so arrogant to think "I'm from the USA, every other country sucks." It baffles me that people do feel that way, really.

People's ignorance isn't just to those from other countries. It happens to those of us who move from one state or one region of the country to another. I'm from upstate NY, and I moved to Texas about a year and a half ago. I'm dumbfounded by some of the things people ask me. One of my favorites was, "people in New York don't have cars, right?"

It shocks me too. I'm sure i've asked "How do you like it here?" to people living visiting Australia, and what differences they notice. I might even be extra rude and ask which country they prefer (lets be honest, MOST of the time it's their home country).. I couldn't believe how many people ask "do you feel lucky to be here?" and other such things. I'm lucky to be with my husband yes of course... I don't know how to respond half the time... "No. The US sucks" I'm sure would get just as strong a reaction as if I said "oh yes, Australia sucks" in the presence of other Aussies. I really need to come up with some sarcastic reply... I think the biggest thing to remember is we're not just lucky, we worked DAMN hard to get here. We jumped through the hoops, we were good citizens at home, good little travelers who abided by the rules. We earnt the money to pay the fees, or our spouses did. It wasn't easy and I wouldn't call it "luck".

Side note - i explained the process for AOS in detail to my FIL tonight because he asked a qn that made it seem like i should just send off a form (ignorance, not being mean) and *poof* there's my GC. I explained the hoops we need to jump through, the paperwork we need to complete, the regulations and requirements, not to mention the fees.. he was honestly shocked about it all. If it was as simple as a little piece of paper i'd've done it the day after I got married.. after the breakfast in bed of course

[JohnAnwesha 4]

Interesting discussion so far. Just another few cents as well.

I honestly don't think that this is an exclusive deal. You can definitely love different places and the various aspects of life in those countries without compromising on your nationalistic pride or feeling like you "sold out" or that you "don't belong."

I love the U.S. for a myriad of reasons. I greatly cherish the sense of freedom and choice I have there. I enjoyed my time there and truth be told, I can't wait to go back to start living our lives together as husband and wife.

I also love India because at the end of the day, this where I became me. No matter how much I b*tch about the heat or the corruption, I will always be 100% Indian till the day I die. Denying or attempting to deny one's roots is a futile attempt. I can't live without chicken tandoori, cricket and B-grade Bollywood movies. Yes, there I said it.

Travelling to and living in different places is an eriching experience. We get to keep the things we like about certain cultures, and reject others that don't fit in with our world view. I will always look upon my time spent in America as a blessing that allowed me to become much more open-minded, consider things I never considered before and lastly, taught me a great deal about myself and ironically, about what being an Indian means. Things are a lot different when you're on the outside, looking in. Ithaca, NY will always hold a special place in my heart because that's where I grew up and tried to forge a unique identity for myself. No one place/country/culture is superior to another--it's all relative. They're just different from each other and that's what makes being a mixture so delightful. People are just people, at the end of the day.

Also, I find it ironic that certain posters from First World countries resent those Americans who think that they (the posters) should be grateful for the opportunity to live in "the land of the brave and free" but in the same breath assume that us lowly folks coming from India, Kenya or Bangladesh would be just absolutely thrilled to be living in the U.S. Seems like you're guilty of the same sort of behavior you accuse some ignorant Americans of.

P.S.: Tommy and Riza, thankyou!

I agree with you here sachi.I mean it is an exclusive event.Liking a place not your home country and loving your own country.

No one has to love the USA.No one should be forced to say that if one does not relate to here.

You make a choice and you should make your peace with it.

[JohnAnwesha 4]

(I posted this on another message thread that I started, but I thought I would post it here too, to those of you who missed my point....)

Hi Everyone,

Wow, what a lot of replies that I got here...

(sorry for the late reply though, as I'm still recovering from the flu...lol..)

Nevertheless.....

Quote

One of the rights we enjoy as Americans is the right to have this conversation right now, even if we disagree with the reason for doing so.

So yes, I do enjoy this conversation, agreements, disagreements, and everything else in between....

Again, I love being an American citizen and I CHOSE to do that, out of my own free will...

I don't regret about that decision, and if I had to do it all over again, I would....

My point of this conversation can be summed up in this way, as some others pointed out.......

Quote

I agree with this post...Im sure Ant loves being an american, and what this post is actually doing, is showing how hard it is to think of negatives about the country!!

Quote

Ant's post was not intended in a negative way...but there's always someone who gets bent and screams 'Go home if you don't like it'...please, spare us. Very few folks on VJ became citizens because they dislike America. As some intelligent individual mentioned above...Free speech is a right and one can have one's own opinions whether they agree with everyone, no one or a few others.

I (and my husband) wanted to see if see if anyone can come up with any negatives, to go alongside with the positives….

To every issue there is a good side and a bad side to it....

If we can find more in the good, than in the bad, that that says more about something, doesn't it?

I definitely had a hard time thinking of the negatives....

And because of that, it made me realize that there is more good than bad of American citizenship....

For example, politicians debate the good and bad of the issues every day (it’s their job!), and it is through this debate of both the positives and the negatives that issues do get brought up and eventually resolved.

The bottom line also of what I wanted to say was to make people think about things.....

I wish the US Citizenship forms and/or immigration officers did ask:

"Why do you want to or not want to to become a US Citizen"...

Now, I wonder what answers various answers would be to that one.....hmm.....

And really, it would make a lot of people "think" about this very important decision of obtaining US Citizenship...

There is no right or wrong answers as to why people want to become US Citizens...

But for whatever reason one wants to become a USC, then they should have a reason for such, and not just want to do it 'because everyone else is doing it'...

I really do want people to weight tbe pros and the cons of US Citizenship, before they pursue this path.....

Lol...I can only think of the pros/positives (which I actually mentioned in my cover letter of my US Citizenship application too....)......Which makes the negatives quite challenging for me to do.....And makes for an interesting bet!

And for the fun of it, as I mentioned before, it was for a bet...lol...

He being a natural-born USC does not fully understand what it is like going through the immigration process and in having the right to be such...

So he "challenged" me to come up with the negatives, knowing how hard that it would be for me to come up with such, especially more so that I’m positive for most of the time....

(lol..we are a quirky couple that way...we like debating issues for the fun of it…lol…)

Needless to say, I lost the bet...I couldn't come up with 10 reasons in time....

On the bright side, I can come up with more positives of becoming a US Citizen, and that goes to show that I did make the right choice in being a USC after all....

Thanks again to all those that participated in this message topic…Keep up the great work of exercising the “freedom of speech” here in America!

Ant (I love the USA, I love my family.......)

Amazing post ! Loved reading it.

You are so spot-on on saying that but for the freedom of speech,we would not be really having this debate.