co-signer

[ramana 0]

I need some advise, my fiance goes to school full time. He makes about $17000, which is below the poverty line. For him they require $19000. Well he has over $50000 cash in his bank, and he has his car which is worth $10000. Does he need a co-signer?? i am really confused, would his savings be considered as an asset??? help..he doesnt want to get a co-signer.....

Edited April 2, 2010 by ramana

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

I need some advise, my fiance goes to school full time. He makes about $17000, which is below the poverty line. For him they require $19000. Well he has over $50000 cash in his bank, and he has his car which is worth $10000. Does he need a co-signer?? i am really confused, would his savings be considered as an asset??? help..he doesnt want to get a co-signer.....

Most consulates will accept assets to offset a shortage in income. If they apply the I-864 rules for assets, which many consulates appear to do, then there are some rules that apply to accepting assets to offset a shortage of income.

First, the assets have to be worth 3 times the shortage in income. In other words, if the income is short by $1000, then you'd need at least $3000 worth of assets. The 3:1 rule applies when sponsoring a family member (a fiance would count as a family member). For everyone else, it's 5:1. The 5:1 rule would apply to a co-sponsor.

Second, the assets have to be something you can convert to cash within 12 months without considerable hardship or financial loss. Selling your only car would be considered a hardship. Cashing out an investment instrument before it matures would be a financial loss. If your fiance's savings are in a conventional savings account, then he can include them as assets. If they are invested in bonds or CD's or some other investment instrument that has a maturity of more than 12 months, and if he will get hit with a significant fine for cashing them out early, then they might not be eligible.

He'll need evidence to prove he owns the assets, and proof of their value. If the money is in a savings account, then a statement from the bank should suffice.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

Jim, I've never heard of assets held in any conventional financial instrument to be unacceptable.

The only way I would think a consulate would disregard these assets were if the income stated on the affidavit were from interest on these assets.

In this case, the sponsor is short a mere $2000 (approximately) of hitting the income target. I can't imagine a consulate ignoring $50000 cash assets in this case.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Jim, I've never heard of assets held in any conventional financial instrument to be unacceptable.

The only way I would think a consulate would disregard these assets were if the income stated on the affidavit were from interest on these assets.

In this case, the sponsor is short a mere $2000 (approximately) of hitting the income target. I can't imagine a consulate ignoring $50000 cash assets in this case.

What do you consider to be a "conventional financial instrument"?

The rules are pretty clear. You need to be able to convert the asset into cash within 12 months without financial loss. If cashing out an investment instrument before maturity will only mean a loss of interest, then that wouldn't be a financial loss. If you're going to lose part of the principal investment, then that would be considered a loss. For example, if you have a CD that carries a 12 month interest penalty for early cash out, and you cash out within the first year, you're going to lose some principal. They don't consider the penalty-adjusted amount as an asset - they consider the entire asset to be unavailable for the purpose of the affidavit.

I agree that the consulate is not likely to ignore $50K in assets, unless they conclude that he can't touch the money for years without incurring a significant loss in principal.

[ramana 0]

What do you consider to be a "conventional financial instrument"?

The rules are pretty clear. You need to be able to convert the asset into cash within 12 months without financial loss. If cashing out an investment instrument before maturity will only mean a loss of interest, then that wouldn't be a financial loss. If you're going to lose part of the principal investment, then that would be considered a loss. For example, if you have a CD that carries a 12 month interest penalty for early cash out, and you cash out within the first year, you're going to lose some principal. They don't consider the penalty-adjusted amount as an asset - they consider the entire asset to be unavailable for the purpose of the affidavit.

I agree that the consulate is not likely to ignore $50K in assets, unless they conclude that he can't touch the money for years without incurring a significant loss in principal.

[ramana 0]

Most consulates will accept assets to offset a shortage in income. If they apply the I-864 rules for assets, which many consulates appear to do, then there are some rules that apply to accepting assets to offset a shortage of income.

First, the assets have to be worth 3 times the shortage in income. In other words, if the income is short by $1000, then you'd need at least $3000 worth of assets. The 3:1 rule applies when sponsoring a family member (a fiance would count as a family member). For everyone else, it's 5:1. The 5:1 rule would apply to a co-sponsor.

Second, the assets have to be something you can convert to cash within 12 months without considerable hardship or financial loss. Selling your only car would be considered a hardship. Cashing out an investment instrument before it matures would be a financial loss. If your fiance's savings are in a conventional savings account, then he can include them as assets. If they are invested in bonds or CD's or some other investment instrument that has a maturity of more than 12 months, and if he will get hit with a significant fine for cashing them out early, then they might not be eligible.

He'll need evidence to prove he owns the assets, and proof of their value. If the money is in a savings account, then a statement from the bank should suffice.

as far is i know its in his bank account, he tried to run a business last year but didnt go far. That is how he ended up put that money on the side...then we should be fine then thank you so much!!!

[TracyTN 237]

Moving thread from K1 process to consular forum.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

What do you consider to be a "conventional financial instrument"?

The rules are pretty clear. You need to be able to convert the asset into cash within 12 months without financial loss. If cashing out an investment instrument before maturity will only mean a loss of interest, then that wouldn't be a financial loss. If you're going to lose part of the principal investment, then that would be considered a loss. For example, if you have a CD that carries a 12 month interest penalty for early cash out, and you cash out within the first year, you're going to lose some principal. They don't consider the penalty-adjusted amount as an asset - they consider the entire asset to be unavailable for the purpose of the affidavit.

I agree that the consulate is not likely to ignore $50K in assets, unless they conclude that he can't touch the money for years without incurring a significant loss in principal.

I'm not on my primary computer where I have the bulk of my research.

But I am unaware of any "rule" which indicates a penalty for early withdrawal of a financial instrument would cause it to be dismissed as a viable asset. As I said earlier, if the asset generated claimed income, I can fathom it being considered untouchable.

The only "rule" I am aware of is that the asset must be of the type which it can be easily converted to cash.

*edited for typo*

Edited April 2, 2010 by JohnnyQuest

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

I'm not on my primary computer where I have the bulk of my research.

But I am unaware of any "rule" which indicates a penalty for early withdrawal of a financial instrument would cause it to be dismissed as a viable asset. As I said earlier, if the asset generated claimed income, I can fathom it being considered untouchable.

The only "rule" I am aware of is that the asset must be of the type which it can be easily converted to cash.

*edited for typo*

The exact wording in the I-864 instructions are:

Only assets that can be converted into cash within one year and without considerable hardship or financial loss to the owner may be included.

I suppose there's some wiggle room for interpretation there. For example, would shares of stock be considered an asset if their current value were significantly less than the basis, but you expected their value in one year to be higher than the basis? My guess would be yes - they are an asset, because there's nothing inherent in the nature of stocks that would require you to incur a loss if you sold them. I could, however, see a consulate or USCIS taking their declared value with a grain of salt, because of the speculative nature of the investment. On the other hand, a 401K would not be considered an asset because you'd be guaranteed to be hit with penalties if you cashed it out.

Anyway, she says she thinks it's cash in the bank, so there should be no problems.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

The exact wording in the I-864 instructions are:

Only assets that can be converted into cash within one year and without considerable hardship or financial loss to the owner may be included.

I suppose there's some wiggle room for interpretation there. For example, would shares of stock be considered an asset if their current value were significantly less than the basis, but you expected their value in one year to be higher than the basis? My guess would be yes - they are an asset, because there's nothing inherent in the nature of stocks that would require you to incur a loss if you sold them. I could, however, see a consulate or USCIS taking their declared value with a grain of salt, because of the speculative nature of the investment. On the other hand, a 401K would not be considered an asset because you'd be guaranteed to be hit with penalties if you cashed it out.

Anyway, she says she thinks it's cash in the bank, so there should be no problems.

I was hoping to find the lengthy memo issued in June 2006 (by USCIS) that clarified adjudication of the I864 (it expands on the instructions).

I've got it bookmarked on my other PC.

I agree the OP is likely OK. And I agree there is wiggle room as you call it. I'd hate though to give readers the impression that their invested assets might NOT be sufficient for an affidavit. My understanding of "hardship or financial loss" has been relying on liquidation of a piece of real estate (especially the family home) or a vehicle. I recall a discussion (quite some time ago) about relying on the value of works of art.

I've always gone with the principal that if it's a "stretch" to liquidate the asset - if it could take either some time or put the family in true financial peril - then it won't fly.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

I was hoping to find the lengthy memo issued in June 2006 (by USCIS) that clarified adjudication of the I864 (it expands on the instructions).

I've got it bookmarked on my other PC.

I agree the OP is likely OK. And I agree there is wiggle room as you call it. I'd hate though to give readers the impression that their invested assets might NOT be sufficient for an affidavit. My understanding of "hardship or financial loss" has been relying on liquidation of a piece of real estate (especially the family home) or a vehicle. I recall a discussion (quite some time ago) about relying on the value of works of art.

I've always gone with the principal that if it's a "stretch" to liquidate the asset - if it could take either some time or put the family in true financial peril - then it won't fly.

Here's the memo.

http://www.uscis.gov/files/pressrelease/AffSuppAFM062706.pdf

Here's what the memo has to say about assets:

(5) Part 7 of Form I-864: Use of Assets to Supplement Sponsor’s Income. If a sponsor cannot meet the Poverty Guideline requirement based upon total household income listed on line 24c, he or she may show evidence of assets owned by the sponsor, and/or members of the sponsor’s household, that are available to support the sponsored immigrant(s) and can be readily converted into cash within 1 year.

For assets of the intending immigrant and/or household member to be considered, the household member must complete and sign Form I-864A. USCIS should check to make sure that the Form I-864A is completed and signed by the sponsor and the household member.

(A) Evidence of assets. Evidence of the sponsor’s assets should be attached to the Form I-864. Evidence of the principal sponsored immigrant’s and/or household member assets should be attached to Form I-864A. In each instance, the evidence should establish the location, ownership, and value of each listed asset, including any liens or liabilities for each listed asset. Evidence of assets includes, but is not limited to:

• Bank statements covering the last 12 months, or a statement from an officer of the bank or other financial institution in which the sponsor has deposits, including deposit/withdrawal history for the last 12 months, and current balance;

• Evidence of ownership and value of stocks, bonds, and certificates of deposit, and dates acquired;

• Evidence of ownership and value of other personal property and dates acquired; and

• Evidence of ownership and value of any real estate and dates acquired.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Here's the memo.

http://www.uscis.gov/files/pressrelease/AffSuppAFM062706.pdf

Here's what the memo has to say about assets:

(5) Part 7 of Form I-864: Use of Assets to Supplement Sponsor’s Income. If a sponsor cannot meet the Poverty Guideline requirement based upon total household income listed on line 24c, he or she may show evidence of assets owned by the sponsor, and/or members of the sponsor’s household, that are available to support the sponsored immigrant(s) and can be readily converted into cash within 1 year.

For assets of the intending immigrant and/or household member to be considered, the household member must complete and sign Form I-864A. USCIS should check to make sure that the Form I-864A is completed and signed by the sponsor and the household member.

(A) Evidence of assets. Evidence of the sponsor’s assets should be attached to the Form I-864. Evidence of the principal sponsored immigrant’s and/or household member assets should be attached to Form I-864A. In each instance, the evidence should establish the location, ownership, and value of each listed asset, including any liens or liabilities for each listed asset. Evidence of assets includes, but is not limited to:

• Bank statements covering the last 12 months, or a statement from an officer of the bank or other financial institution in which the sponsor has deposits, including deposit/withdrawal history for the last 12 months, and current balance;

• Evidence of ownership and value of stocks, bonds, and certificates of deposit, and dates acquired;

• Evidence of ownership and value of other personal property and dates acquired; and

• Evidence of ownership and value of any real estate and dates acquired.

That pretty much echos what is written in 8 CFR, Section 213a. It describes evidence of assets, but doesn't address the hardship or financial loss requirements written in the I-864 instructions. Both the memo and 8 CFR expand on what is written in INA 213a, which says that assets may be used to show means to maintain income (in a paragraph titled "Flexibility"), but doesn't spell out what the requirements are for those assets.

To be honest, I'm not sure which law or policy memo spells out how they make the determination as to whether an asset qualifies or not. A quick google search only yielded brief quotes from the I-864 instructions, but no details. It could be that they intentionally don't define it so that USCIS adjudicators and consular officers can have some discretion in determining whether they believe the value of an asset could be made available to support the immigrant.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

To be honest, I'm not sure which law or policy memo spells out how they make the determination as to whether an asset qualifies or not. A quick google search only yielded brief quotes from the I-864 instructions, but no details. It could be that they intentionally don't define it so that USCIS adjudicators and consular officers can have some discretion in determining whether they believe the value of an asset could be made available to support the immigrant.

I'd agree with that.

All other things being equal though, I tend to run with the theory that a cash asset (as opposed to physical asset) will be counted unless the sponsor is deriving income from that asset. And I believe that because I personally have experience with using assets to qualify. You may have a different perspective due to your experience with HCMC and the rigidity of that consulate.

I'd like to add this isn't a quarrel. My only purpose is to lend my experience.

[wantknow 11]

QUESTION 1: If you make over the poverty line does that mean your okay example: poverty line is 23,000 and you make 28,000 is this okay or not?

QUESTION 2: If you claim someone on tax 2009 as (other) dependant child and they no longer live with you; do you need to put them on AOS?

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

QUESTION 1: If you make over the poverty line does that mean your okay example: poverty line is 23,000 and you make 28,000 is this okay or not?

QUESTION 2: If you claim someone on tax 2009 as (other) dependant child and they no longer live with you; do you need to put them on AOS?

If you are over the limit, most people will tell you not to bother showing assets. As Jim has alluded, that could vary from consulate to consulate. At a "tougher" consulate, if it were me I would show any assets I had even if my income were above level.

If you have "lost" a dependent who appeared on your 2009 taxes, you can leave them off the household count if you can explain it. If that dependent is a child who married and moved out, prove it. If the dependent passed away, show proof of the death.