border jumpers

[Dan T 8]

Read the second paragraph of my last post above, which was edited in and crossed over with your message here.

english is a tough language to learn compared to latin derived languages with more regulated structure and spelling, I get it, but nothing in that edited post would change my mind on any of my responses.

[natty bumppo 297]

lemme guess you went around making hand gestures of udder manipulation? thats just too funny

the moo got the laugh and solidified the request after that morning ... the hotel staff adopted me

Perhaps, if they can overcome the challenges of both spouses' having jobs, dealing with their kids, being unable to sign up for English classes in the middle of the program...

sign-up for classes? you forgot to add if they can afford classes didn't you?

my portuguese isn't great ... yet it gets me along. number of classes taken ... zero. my best learning experiences have been when i pushed myself to learn because there was a severe limitation of english being spoken (and yes it happened when still having to deal with family and job). informal learning does work.

[TBoneTX 45,304]

and you are illustrating an effort that you and your wife have made that is not made by enough central/south americans with enough recurrance that we are here having a conversation about it.

Y'know what? I used to feel exactly as you do ("Learn ENGLISH, dammit!") And, I don't think it's truly known HOW many (or how few) Latin Americans/Mexicans are or aren't making the effort. Regarding the three dozen or so opinions of theirs that I do know of (100% agreement among them), I'd say that it's probably a great many who would love to learn English better.

i know this about this particular clerk because i have been going to this store regularly to buy self serve items since it opened 8 years ago.

Well, are you cordial with him, or do you at least smile at him? This would go a long way toward making him feel less lousy about rude treatment or scorn that he certainly gets from others because of the language barrier. He's still a human being, si man?

[TBoneTX 45,304]

sign-up for classes? you forgot to add if they can afford classes didn't you?

Si, man. Around my area, there are enough free classes that I didn't think to mention affordability -- mea culpa (or, if talking about milk, moo culpa).

Added: Dan, you're absolutely right about the regularity of Latin-rooted languages in comparison with English. I do medical editing professionally, and -- as frustrating as it is for me to try to figure out what the dickens these foreign doctors are trying to get at -- I respect them for whatever they're able to put on paper. Just this month, THREE doctors -- Chinese, Turkish, & Italian -- apologized for what they perceived to be their poor English. The Chinese even asked for ideas on how to improve himself. I dropped everything else that I had to do, and I wrote him a long letter with as many suggestions as I could think of, si man.

Years ago, I asked a Chinese friend how difficult it was for Chinese people to learn English. "Basic English is very easy," he said, "but beyond that -- what we call 'elegant' English -- is something that almost none of us ever achieve."

Then and now, I don't know how ANYONE EVER learns English as a second language, no man.

Edited March 29, 2010 by TBoneTX

[Dan T 8]

i want to keep a few things clear while having these back and forths. It is one issue to begrudge all illegal entries from all countries on the basis of their illegal activity surrounding their residence and employment in this country. It is a completely different issue to begrudge any immigrant (legal or not) on the basis of a resistance to integration in the form of language and culture. I have been told by some in this very thread that in some parts of the USA that it is not the central/south americans refusing to integrate(however the specific other countries of origin were not specified by this poster). Due to my life experience central/south american immigrants have always been the face of outright integration resistance. And while I have on occasion called a US based automated phone system that says push 3 for francais and 4 for deutsche they are very rare in comparison to marke el dos para espanol. after all look at the protest marches when congress was taking up the issue of tightening immigration laws. were there some irish flags? sure i did see a few, but what were the majority of em? come on now be honest here, what country, and no it wasnt italy though the flags are similar. when speaking about illegal immigration in america it is impossible not to treat mexicans as a special case. id have the same issue if my neighbors were from the gaeltacht and all other circumstances matched that of my spanish/portuguese speaking neighbors that I have currently.

[natty bumppo 297]

Si, man. Around my area, there are enough free classes that I didn't think to mention affordability -- mea culpa (or, if talking about milk, moo culpa).

my wife loves to tell that story to her female friends for some reason ... yet she refuses to let me offer a repeat performance on them

[Dan T 8]

Y'know what? I used to feel exactly as you do ("Learn ENGLISH, dammit!") And, I don't think it's truly known HOW many (or how few) Latin Americans/Mexicans are or aren't making the effort. Regarding the three dozen or so opinions of theirs that I do know of (100% agreement among them), I'd say that it's probably a great many who would love to learn English better.Well, are you cordial with him, or do you at least smile at him? This would go a long way toward making him feel less lousy about rude treatment or scorn that he certainly gets from others because of the language barrier. He's still a human being, si man?

point is he should feel lousy, and at that hour of the morning, esp before coffee i am cordial to no one. and I doubt he has sufficiant negative reinforcement due to 3 spanish language tv stations making their home in NYC, spanish newspapers, and an endless stream of spanish as a first language customers to shop in his store, on top of the endless supply of other spanish as a first language shops he can patron in order to take care of his basic needs. even our census form came in spanish and english as co-equal languages. so if my bit of gruff makes him feel just a little lousy, i say good enough for him

Edited March 29, 2010 by Dan T

[TBoneTX 45,304]

point is he should feel lousy, and at that hour of the morning, esp before coffee i am cordial to no one [...] i say good enough for him

Well, OK; no one's begrudging you your opinions, and I too object to the "radical" Mexicans (La Raza, etc.) who march & make demands. There's a thread from January or so, in probably the General Immigration forum, that talks about MEXICO'S immigration policies -- a fascinating comparison, and many contributors to this thread should be interested. I don't have the link in front of me, but I started it, in either January or December.

Edited to add: Before coffee, I'm neither cordial nor gruff; I merely lurch around in groggy elliptical circles before staggering into some furniture.

Edited March 29, 2010 by TBoneTX

[TBoneTX 45,304]

There's a thread from January or so, in probably the General Immigration forum, that talks about MEXICO'S immigration policies -- a fascinating comparison, and many contributors to this thread should be interested.

Here it is, newly bumped:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/232311-should-us-immigration-law-emulate-mexicos/

[ready4ONE 5,400]

If just being illegally present in the USA "post border jump" is just a minor civil infraction, why are any illegal aliens subject to arrest, detainment, and deportation for illegal presence? This is just one of the many lies propogated by the illegal alien cheerleader crowd to minimize the crimes committed by illegal aliens. In addition to merely illegally crossing and being illegally present they also use fraudulent and/or stolen documentation to work illegally without legal authorization in addition to committing perjury by lying on the I-9 form to do so. Not to mention the illegal aliens that work off the books for cash to evade income taxes. This covers the Home Depot crowd hawking illegal work on the street corner and the contractors that violate the law to hire them.

The sad fact is that the average American has been deceived and lied to on so many fronts that many are ignorant of the truth. There is also this lie that the amnesty supporters propogate through omission of the all the facts. The most obvious one being that amnestied illegal aliens must learn English, pay back taxes, and pay a fine to be able to stay in the USA. During a mass blanket illegal alien amnesty as proposed by Obama they all get to stay and get permanent residency along with work authorization why being processed. Only the ones that pursue US ctizenship will be required to learn English, pay back taxes, and pay a fine (which comes years down the line after processing for permanent residency). These 12-20 million amnestied illegal aliens are barred while they being are processed (also taking years).

The biggest lie of all is that amnesty is necessary in order to enforce our immigration laws at all. If they won't enforce our laws now and after 7 other illegal alien amnesties why does anyone with half a brain believe they will do it after the 8th amnesty? We do not need to amnesty millions of illegal aliens to reform immigration policy or enforce our laws.

Another lie being pushed is that arresting and deporting these millions of illegal aliens is too expensive and logistically impossible. As if competently processing these millions will be cheap along with extending social entitlements to them afterword will be.

We have repeatedly been promised a competent work verification system since the first illegal alien amnesty in 1986 and the politicians refuse to fund/implement its developement. This from a country that is steeped in modern technology and put men on the moon 41 years ago. Not to mention that big business has no problem reliably conducting and verifying millions of financial transactions as well as the government also already doing so itself. They determine eligibility for millions of Social Security recipients already and dole out benefits to them along with many other transactions in day to day government. Why no employment verification?

The cheapest and most cost effective route to real immigration reform is to immediately implement real mandatory and effective employment verification that was promised decades ago. Corporations and employers have no qualms with shedding American employees when they so desire to do so. Witness the millions of unemployed Americans right now. Why should anyone (much less our politicians) get in an uproar about firing masses of illegal aliens that aren't authorized to legally work, much less, even be legally present in our country? Migration works both ways. No reason to deport when they can just as easily return the way they got here. These people are not the responsibility of the US government...American citizens are. We are not being served by their failure to control illegal immigration and the harm it causes us.

Amnesty is bad public policy and harms our country. It has failed miserably after being used repeatedly. It does not deter illegal immigration, but actually encourages it. Why do it again? Why do it at all? Obama and the Left wing Dems are wrong on this.

That's my 2 cents...flame away.

As a matter of pure fact, don't want to interrupt your tirade, but being here illegally is a civil violation. The actual act of crossing the border is a criminal violation. The former falling under civil statute, the latter under criminal statute. If we don't have the resources to monitor the borders, seal them now, where do you propose we get the personnel to find and remove via deportation, all illegal aliens?

There are a lot of lies out there all right.

The current status quo is failing miserably. Your solution is to turn private citizens into immigration enforcers. The 'masses' of employed illegal aliens are hardly the source of our unemployment issues right now.

There are a LOT of lies out there all right.

Edited March 29, 2010 by ready4ONE

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

TBone,

Man, I'm a big fan of yours and have huge respect for you. Si man. But let me approach this issue from my side, and please read it with an open mind, okay?

I'm German. Never had any pride in it. I made good money in Germany, but didn't really like it there much. I didn't come to the US for financial gain. I came because I love America, always have. I was just born in the wrong place.

I do not raise a German flag on my flag pole. I don't have a German flag on my car(s). I do not wear "Lederhosen." I do not listen to German music. I don't celebrate German holidays. I don't speak German if anybody is present who doesn't speak German, meaning in public. The moment I came to the US -- and keep in mind that I have been illegal for 13-some years -- I felt like an American. In fact, most people believed from the very beginning that I'm American. My wife is American. She believed I was an American when we started dating. To this day, nobody but her knows that I'm not an American. In one sentence: I worked hard to blend in and always felt as American as it gets.

Now let's look at the (admittedly stereotypical) Mexican in California (or Puerto Rican in Florida) and compare him to me, shall we?

He loves Mexico. If he had a choice, he would rather live in Mexico, yet lives in the US for financial gain.

He raises the Mexican flag in his yard. His car is plastered with Mexican flags and stickers of Brahma bulls. He listens to Mexican music and Mexican radio stations all day long. Loud! He celebrates Mexican holidays. Cinco de Mayo is more important to him than Independence Day. He marries a Mexican (American) woman. He raises his children as Mexican (Americans). He speaks Spanish with them. In one sentence: he doesn't put much effort into blending in to this society.

Because of this, and I know it's stereotypical (as I personally know Mexicans I didn't know were Mexicans until being told so!), people in general have a "problem" with Mexican immigrants. Wouldn't you agree with me that blending in assimilating into the cultural fabric of the society one immigrates to is of utmost importance? I think so. Si man!

Now please, enlighten me, us, where I'm thinking in the wrong direction. I love this discussion, and am open minded, willing to learn and to adjust my thinking. Help me!

Edited March 29, 2010 by Just Bob

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Puerto Ricans are American citizens at birth, douchebag.

[Dan T 8]

Puerto Ricans are American citizens at birth, douchebag.

i think he prolly meant to say cubans, but they are also here legally via wet foot-dry foot. Also I think his post was more geared towards the integration issue and not the legal/illegal issue.

[peejay 327]

As a matter of pure fact, don't want to interrupt your tirade, but being here illegally is a civil violation. The actual act of crossing the border is a criminal violation. The former falling under civil statute, the latter under criminal statute. If we don't have the resources to monitor the borders, seal them now, where do you propose we get the personnel to find and remove via deportation, all illegal aliens?

There are a lot of lies out there all right.

The current status quo is failing miserably. Your solution is to turn private citizens into immigration enforcers. The 'masses' of employed illegal aliens are hardly the source of our unemployment issues right now.

There are a LOT of lies out there all right.

Well, you basically stated that being illegally present amounted to "a civil violation, something on the order of speeding or failing to stop at a stop sign." I just pointed out it is not the minor violation you described when any illegal alien can be arrested, detained, and deported for being illegally present. It happens all the time far, far away from the border.

If you read my post I stated that mandatory employment verification and firing of illegal workers would take care of the problem without mass deportations. Migration works both ways. Can't work here...they will go home.

And where did I state that I wanted to turn private citizens into immigration informers?

You are very naive and/or ignorant if you believe that illegal aliens do not hold jobs that unemployed Americans can do, will do, and want to do. Not all illegal aliens are picking lettuce for sub-minimum wages.

Why do you defend illegal aliens and cheerlead for them? I've never understood why so many people here on VJ root for illegal aliens.

[Dan T 8]

You are very naive and/or ignorant if you believe that illegal aliens do not hold jobs that unemployed Americans can do, will do, and want to do. Not all illegal aliens are picking lettuce for sub-minimum wages.

construction anyone? anyone? buhler? buhler?