border jumpers

[peejay 327]

That's only because there were no laws governing the admission of Irish/German immigrants during the mid 19th century.

Peejay's point that they were processed through a port of entry should not make you think that they passed through a formal immigration control. There were no travel documents, passports, or visas in those days. There was no distinction between a visitor or someone who arrived with intent to remain permanently. People simply bought passage on a boat and off they sailed, with some vague idea about the New World over the horizon. There was no need to illegally evade a border crossing, since no such crossings existed.

The first laws to systematically restrict immigration to the USA broadly were the Chinese Exclusion Acts of 1882.

These laws fed into the hysteria gripping the nation that Chinese immigrants were unfairly (aka illegally) entering the country, stealing jobs, and changing the nature of America for the worse.

Tell me again why this doesn't parallel the same xenophobia seen today?

You are the only one labeling it xenophobia. Sovereign nations have the right to control who comes into their country and for what purpose. It's done all over the world and the USA is no different. So I guess the entire world is xenophobic by your definition. Get a grip...this is the 21st century.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

You are the only one labeling it xenophobia. Sovereign nations have the right to control who comes into their country and for what purpose. It's done all over the world and the USA is no different. So I guess the entire world is xenophobic by your definition. Get a grip...this is the 21st century.

Well you can't label the outrage over illegal immigration as xenophobic....but anyone who directions their attention to a particular group of people and not the actual issue is. And yes there are a lot of xenophobic people out there. We need to get past the issue of race, because its not just Hispanics who enter illegally.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Sousuke

[scandal 951]

You are the only one labeling it xenophobia. Sovereign nations have the right to control who comes into their country and for what purpose. It's done all over the world and the USA is no different. So I guess the entire world is xenophobic by your definition. Get a grip...this is the 21st century.

Well you can't label the outrage over illegal immigration as xenophobic....but anyone who directions their attention to a particular group of people and not the actual issue is. And yes there are a lot of xenophobic people out there. We need to get past the issue of race, because its not just Hispanics who enter illegally.

Thanks for answering on my behalf. That's approximately how I would put it.

My argument is not with those who are simply calling for US law as currently on the books to be enforced, in a color blind fashion. I'm 100% in agreement with that. I have no more patience for those who break US law and then are "outraged" that they're not forgiven, than you do, Peejay.

My argument is with those who would claim that it's people of brown skin, or Catholic religion, or whose mother tongue is Spanish, or whose place of birth lies in the Americas... but slightly to the south of the Rio Grande... that somehow this group is to be singled out for scorn (regardless of whether they are legally or illegally in the US) on some general suspicion that they are collectively responsible for our failures to control our immigration policy. That smacks absolutely of the intolerance of the Know Nows of the 19th century, and there's just no place for it in today's America.

So long as the current laws are on the book, I'm strongly in favor of enforcing them. That's not a question of immigration policy to me, rather it's a question of fundamental respect for law and order. When laws go unenforced and traipsed upon at will it makes a mockery not just of those laws, but of the Law in general. And that I cannot abide, nor should anyone.

Having said that, I am in favor of changing our laws. I strongly believe that our current laws are not in accordance with America's best interests. We can serve America better with better laws that are forward thinking and can anticipate the social and economic changes of the coming decades. We can leapfrog Europe and China and India into the 21st century with an immigration policy - based upon law- that plays to America's strengths and advantages, recognizes our demographic baby boom followed by imminent baby bust, and encourages hardworking honest entrepreneurial immigrants to flock here in droves, rather than alienating them and causing them to choose the UK or Australia rather than the US.

[scandal 951]

The only parallel is volume. Also you can't compare the US of now to the 1800's. There is a limited carrying capacity to any country and population control is extremely important to the ecological sustainability of any nation.

Do you know what the population of South Dakota is, for example? And the population density of that state, and neighboring ones like ND, IA, MT?

Do you realize that vast tracts of the rural midwest, such as small towns in South Dakota, are desperately trying to recruit residents to come and repopulate their towns?

We are nowhere near some mythical "carrying capacity". This argument was put forth when America's population was 10 million,30 million, 50 million, 100 million. Why should it carry any more water when we're at 300 million?

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Do you know what the population of South Dakota is, for example? And the population density of that state, and neighboring ones like ND, IA, MT?

Do you realize that vast tracts of the rural midwest, such as small towns in South Dakota, are desperately trying to recruit residents to come and repopulate their towns?

We are nowhere near some mythical "carrying capacity". This argument was put forth when America's population was 10 million,30 million, 50 million, 100 million. Why should it carry any more water when we're at 300 million?

Its funny that you mention water. That is one resource that is dwindling in the US. I think you could argue we have actually surpassed the US capacity. Our corporate farming methods are not sustainable. There are multiple states that are having water issues not to mention topsoil erosion is also a lingering issue. Then you have large mono-cultures of crops that are just begging for devastation from any number of sources which could cause serious food shortages. This is just the tip of the iceberg really....our whole farming system is very petrol intensive so if we every see a sustained spike in oil....well its not a pretty picture.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Border jumpers are CRIMINALS plain and simple, they broke the law intentionally and did it knowing full well what they were doing. They should be rounded up and thrown out back to the country from which they came! AND no amnesty, that is a complete joke and a slap in the face for all of us that did it the legal proper way and waited and paid fees and took tests and exams and whatever else was required! Makes me sick to see these hispanic illegals come into the USA and march and protest in the streets and demand and act like they are owed American rights when they are common criminals that broke the laws, only in the USA do such people be allowed to act and behave this way, I have never seen anything like this in my life until moving to the USA and I will never understand why such a great wonderful justice fair to all country allows their immigration laws to be broken constantly and no one does anything about it. Only weak politicians try to pander to a voter bloc and try to pass laws to weaken US immigration laws. Makes no sense at all. Which is why the USA is not viewed well or respected in many parts of the world for their constant contradictions on law or behavior.

You must be from Australia.

[Candy/SadanNasir 2]

That does not change one iota the fact that the treatment received by first generation Irish (and German, and to some extent Italian and Jewish) immigrants in the 19th and early 20th century was hostile, reactionary and directly comparable to the anti-Hispanic sentiment seen among much of the "tough on immigration" crowd today.

Irish, German and other "papist" immigrants were seen by the Know Nothings and other anti-immigration activists as a fifth column within America, as disloyal, as being unwilling and unable to integrate, and as being pretty much subhuman.

Similar sentiments expressed, of course, about the "celestial" immigrants (aka Asians- predominantly Japanese and Chinese).

Sound familiar?

You'd think that maybe we'd have learned something over the last century and a half but apparently not.

[Dan T 8]

Do you know what the population of South Dakota is, for example? And the population density of that state, and neighboring ones like ND, IA, MT?

Do you realize that vast tracts of the rural midwest, such as small towns in South Dakota, are desperately trying to recruit residents to come and repopulate their towns?

We are nowhere near some mythical "carrying capacity". This argument was put forth when America's population was 10 million,30 million, 50 million, 100 million. Why should it carry any more water when we're at 300 million?

have you been to these places? what non-braindamaged human would actually immigrate TO them? And the argument to allow immigration to compensate for the demographic bulge of the baby boomers is just an argument to keep the ponzi schemes known as medicare and social security alive in their current form, not to mention the new health care bill. If we need to replace the baby-boomers why not encourage a new wave of massive reproduction efforts by the people that are already here? Oh and uh there is still that nagging issue of the dust bin returning.

[Dan T 8]

have you been to these places? what non-braindamaged human would actually immigrate TO them? And the argument to allow immigration to compensate for the demographic bulge of the baby boomers is just an argument to keep the ponzi schemes known as medicare and social security alive in their current form, not to mention the new health care bill. If we need to replace the baby-boomers why not encourage a new wave of massive reproduction efforts by the people that are already here? Oh and uh there is still that nagging issue of the dust bin returning.

I do think we should do things like raise h-1b's back to pre-2000 levels and incentivize people at the top of the education bracket to immigrate because with our education system favoring social advancement as opposed to intellectual natural born americans will continue to fall short of the demands of a high-tech world. The family based immigration also needs to be made easier than what most of us on this site went through and brought more in line with common sense. But opening our borders to the level of 1800's numbers? pure lunacy.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Dan T

[PhiLandShiR 18]

I watched a show on the Discovery channel, I think it was the Discovery channel, might have been the History channel... anyway,

It was about harvesting food stuffs here in the US. Everything from grains to fruits, vegetables and mushrooms

Right at the very end the fruit growers and mushroom farmers were whining about how hard it was to find laborers because of the crack down by border patrol.

They almost admitted they hire illegal's for labor.

I was wondering why they were not willing to pay more than an illegal immigrant wage...

perhaps if they paid a true wage they would find there were people willing to work for them...

[Dan T 8]

I watched a show on the Discovery channel, I think it was the Discovery channel, might have been the History channel... anyway,

It was about harvesting food stuffs here in the US. Everything from grains to fruits, vegetables and mushrooms

Right at the very end the fruit growers and mushroom farmers were whining about how hard it was to find laborers because of the crack down by border patrol.

They almost admitted they hire illegal's for labor.

I was wondering why they were not willing to pay more than an illegal immigrant wage...

perhaps if they paid a true wage they would find there were people willing to work for them...

dont ask me to dig for them but I am aware very credible studies that prove that paying min wage for these jobs would have miniscule effect on the price of produce to consumers. so why indeed

[SMR 368]

dont ask me to dig for them but I am aware very credible studies that prove that paying min wage for these jobs would have miniscule effect on the price of produce to consumers. so why indeed

Well, I am going to ask you to dig for them. Because I may be wrong but this seems suspect to me. When you consider the extra taxes, etc that growers would be paying, they may easily see labor costs quadruple. Now, I'm not saying that would necessarily be a bad thing when all effects are considered. But saying that labor prices will triple and consumer prices will stay the same seems suspect. I would be interested to know what constitutes a "very credible study."

[PhiLandShiR 18]

Well, I am going to ask you to dig for them. Because I may be wrong but this seems suspect to me. When you consider the extra taxes, etc that growers would be paying, they may easily see labor costs quadruple. Now, I'm not saying that would necessarily be a bad thing when all effects are considered. But saying that labor prices will triple and consumer prices will stay the same seems suspect. I would be interested to know what constitutes a "very credible study."

Why would they pay extra taxes?

I can see the wages increasing and thus income taxes paid to the government going up. Its unlikely they pay any beni's so there is no cost there...

If they hire 4 times as many people, I would expect their labor costs to quadruple. That would be normal but they would also get 4 times as much product harvested to off set those costs...

[Dan T 8]

Well, I am going to ask you to dig for them. Because I may be wrong but this seems suspect to me. When you consider the extra taxes, etc that growers would be paying, they may easily see labor costs quadruple. Now, I'm not saying that would necessarily be a bad thing when all effects are considered. But saying that labor prices will triple and consumer prices will stay the same seems suspect. I would be interested to know what constitutes a "very credible study."

so ill put you in the column of allow the flood to continue then

[SMR 368]

Why would they pay extra taxes?

I can see the wages increasing and thus income taxes paid to the government going up. Its unlikely they pay any beni's so there is no cost there...

If they hire 4 times as many people, I would expect their labor costs to quadruple. That would be normal but they would also get 4 times as much product harvested to off set those costs...

I'm talking about FICA payroll taxes. I'm talking about penalties they will pay for not providing health care under the new legislation. I'm talking about the complications of HR that come from actually having to document your workers. In business in America, the rule of thumb is that every dollar you spend in wages to your workers is matched in overhead associated with that worker. There are many exceptions, but raising wages to minimum wage and hiring documented workers adds a lot more cost than the simple difference in wages.

so ill put you in the column of allow the flood to continue then

Then you didn't read my post. I said, "I'm not saying that would necessarily be a bad thing when all effects are considered." That is, I don't think cracking down on illegal immigration is a bad thing. In general, I think we need to make legal immigration easier. My post was just to say that I don't buy the claim that consumer produce prices will remain the same if produce picker labor costs jump by several hundred percent.

However, I don't think it would be the end of the world if apples and oranges cost more.