border jumpers

[sara..... 371]

After the long incomplete visa journey i have had just the word Amnesty for illegals really makes me angry.....in fact it is like a slap in the face to those of us that have done it or at least tried to do it the legal way.....

just my opinion

sara

[sachinky 465]

I will admit, I used to be quite indifferent to the whole immigration issue.

Going through it now, I've obviously developed an opinion about it. This 7-month separation (probably will end up being 9 months) is wreaking havoc on my mental health. Every single day is sheer agony. I can't even imagine how it must be for those waiting for years, those with children involved and how terribly painful it must be for them.

I have nothing but utter scorn and contempt for those who break the proper immigration laws in place. I don't care if they sneaked across the border in order to "escape a harsh life" or to "improve their futures." I don't care if I sound like a heartless, cold b*tch. I have absolutely zero sympathy. Just like I would if someone robbed a bank at gunpoint and then said that it was in order to "feed their family." People who have been engaging in GC sham marriages, overstaying visas, misrepresenting themselves, working illegally etc, are the reason legal immigration has become so expensive and the reason why we have to jump through several hoops in order to be with our loved ones.

And woe be you if you happen to come from one of the high-fraud countries.

[SMR 368]

Candice,

one of the best submissions I've encountered since joining VJ. I had to give it a "thumbs up." Did you by any chance study philosophy?

I hope to forgive me when I just jump on your train and offer another perspective: exploring the difference between legal and illegal.

Let's do it in 3 easy steps, shall we?

Example 1: Drugs

If you smoke pot in the Netherlands, it's legal. If you do that in the US, it's a crime. If you admit to having smoked pot, even once, you are declared a persona non grata for the US, despite the fact that even most Presidents of the United States have done that.

Is smoking pot illegal because it is "bad?" If so, why is it only bad for US citizens, but not for Dutch people? Or is smoking pot only "bad" if it's done on US soil, yet not on Dutch soil? If it's not bad on Dutch soil, is it still bad if USCs do it in the Netherlands? So it it a moral issue, a geographic one, or a genetic one?

How can something be legal and illegal at the same time?

Example 2: Sex

If a 19 year-old has sex with a 17 year-old in any European country, it's perfectly okay. If the same person has sex with his girlfriend in the US, it's Statutory Rape, a crime, for which he may go to jail and has to register as a sex offender.

Is having sex with a 17 year-old illegal because it's "bad?" If so, is it only bad for US citizens, but not for Europeans? Or is it bad because European girls are more developed and more mature than US girls? How can something be legal and illegal in two otherwise identical societies?

Example 3: Immigration

If you enter the US with a visa, or as participant of the WVP, you're legal. If you overstay only one day, even if it's beyond your control (sick/accident), you're illegal. If you marry your fiance in the US, you're still illegal. If your finance is a USC, you're legal again. If you enter the US, get married, and adjust status, having planed so, you're illegal. If you didn't plan it, you're legal. So the difference between the latter two is a mindset, right?

Illegal immigrants can become legal with the stroke of a pen. EWI, now a deal breaker, can be wiped off the law with another signature. There's no inherent quality to legality and illegality; it's all interpretation.

The line between legal and illegal is constantly changing and open to the mood of lawmakers. You can be a rapist or murderer and get amnesty for your crimes plus become part of the witness protection program at the will of a single D.A. Why?

Food for thought, people.

Example 3 raises some good questions. The other examples have some problems.

In example 1, when you compare the laws of two countries, there are bound to be discrepancies. Unless you expect anything that is legal in any country to suddenly be legal everywhere, I don't see what you are driving at.

In example 2, I do not know of any states that would prosecute statutory rape when the "victim" is 17 particularly when the "perpetrator" is under 21. Almost all states have some sort of rolling window, where the victim has to be a certain amount younger, usually something like 5 years. And in other states the age of consent is 16, period. But beyond the technicalities, this is like example 1. Laws in different countries have discrepancies.

In example 3, I think you are right on. The immigration system is the US is convoluted, pointlessly unfair, longer than necessary, unreasonably expensive, and arbitrarily inconsistent. I think anyone who has used it would agree.

[sachinky 465]

The immigration system is the US is convoluted, pointlessly unfair, longer than necessary, unreasonably expensive, and arbitrarily inconsistent. I think anyone who has used it would agree.

Spot on, brother.

[littlecrazyangel 1]

Illegal immigrants are ruining the economy.

[peejay 327]

Illegal immigrants are ruining the economy.

They have also had a lot of help from sleazy politicians and unscupulous corporations

[Dan T 8]

I feel very reassured that most people on here tend to have similar viewpoints as me on this issue. I was also very indifferent for a very long time. I thought well theyre doing jobs no american would do anyway, their keeping our produce prices low, no illegal ever took a job from me(I work in desktop support btw), isnt this country great for offering a better way of life to so much of the world(central and south america mostly). but then I started to see things differently because of a series of events. 9/11 was no small contributor, and I hope Im not inviting backlash from truthers by saying this, but I do think that if we had a sensible set of laws that were enforced properly 9/11 would not have been 9/11. Mohamed Atta was detained by immigration officials and found to have an expired visa and they let him on the plane anyway, and apparently this was not an uncommon practice at the time. The crotch bomber of more recent time also shows that there are still some attitude readjustment needed. After meeting my wife for the first time in Ireland in 2005 I moved back to the town I grew up in in 2006 and found most of the commericial signs in spanish, delis I couldnt shop at because I couldnt speak the language of the clerk, people riding bikes because they couldnt obtain a legal drivers license, street after street and block after block of 3 bedroom houses with 20 people crammed in em. At the end of 2006 I first started the research on the k-1 application process for my wife to come over, leaving a life she was very satisfied with in Ireland. The expense involved with every step along the way was very daunting, as well as the actual number of steps that were necessary. I dont have to tell you people how analagous this process is to peeling back an onion. We got charged about $300 to replace a confirmation we were supposed to have gotten early on in the process but didnt because the USPS in my town sucks and never delivered the original. All while this process is going on more and more of my town was being transformed as stated above, and I got exponentially more angry as it happened. Now I have no issue with people speaking different languages and continuing to live their native culture, what I do have an issue with is a complete and utter lack of integration. I know people living here 5 years or more and still have less than 10 words of english. I guess if the ICE can come knocking at any time it would be a waste of time to get to know any of the local customs. I will add more to this story as this thread continues to develop but you can see where Im going with this. I am relieved to see I am not alone in my frustration against the government of this country for making it difficult and expensive to follow the law, and easy and cheap for people to ignore it.

[zqt3344 21]

Border jumpers are CRIMINALS plain and simple, they broke the law intentionally and did it knowing full well what they were doing. They should be rounded up and thrown out back to the country from which they came! AND no amnesty, that is a complete joke and a slap in the face for all of us that did it the legal proper way and waited and paid fees and took tests and exams and whatever else was required! Makes me sick to see these hispanic illegals come into the USA and march and protest in the streets and demand and act like they are owed American rights when they are common criminals that broke the laws, only in the USA do such people be allowed to act and behave this way, I have never seen anything like this in my life until moving to the USA and I will never understand why such a great wonderful justice fair to all country allows their immigration laws to be broken constantly and no one does anything about it. Only weak politicians try to pander to a voter bloc and try to pass laws to weaken US immigration laws. Makes no sense at all. Which is why the USA is not viewed well or respected in many parts of the world for their constant contradictions on law or behavior.

[The_Dude 1,142]

Border jumpers are CRIMINALS plain and simple, they broke the law intentionally and did it knowing full well what they were doing. They should be rounded up and thrown out back to the country from which they came! AND no amnesty, that is a complete joke and a slap in the face for all of us that did it the legal proper way and waited and paid fees and took tests and exams and whatever else was required! Makes me sick to see these hispanic illegals come into the USA and march and protest in the streets and demand and act like they are owed American rights when they are common criminals that broke the laws, only in the USA do such people be allowed to act and behave this way, I have never seen anything like this in my life until moving to the USA and I will never understand why such a great wonderful justice fair to all country allows their immigration laws to be broken constantly and no one does anything about it. Only weak politicians try to pander to a voter bloc and try to pass laws to weaken US immigration laws. Makes no sense at all. Which is why the USA is not viewed well or respected in many parts of the world for their constant contradictions on law or behavior.

Ahhhh, it's the return of stupid.

While I loathe illegal immigration and am absolutely against any form of amnesty, I don't single out one group to focus my rage upon.

[Dan T 8]

Ahhhh, it's the return of stupid.

While I loathe illegal immigration and am absolutely against any form of amnesty, I don't single out one group to focus my rage upon.

i reread my post and realised it might be interpreted the same as the post you responded to. I felt the need to clarify. The complete void of any effort to integrate is mostly a trait demonstrated by the immigrants from central/south america. They clearly do not value the unique American culture on any level whatsoever. Brazillians(I dont really know if they are rightfully called hispanics or not since the speak portugese) are the biggest problem in my particular town. If my neighbors came from the Gaeltacht, overstayed their tourist visa for 9 years, and opened a shop with someone who only spoke Irish behind the counter, and brought over the village to live in his 3br house, Id be just as peeved about that.

[Krikit 1,164]

"Border jumpers" can be any number of different nationalities and races. Please consider your stereotyping before you post on a multi-cultural board. Thank you.

[Dan T 8]

"Border jumpers" can be any number of different nationalities and races. Please consider your stereotyping before you post on a multi-cultural board. Thank you.

i agree, sorry for the confusion.

[The_Dude 1,142]

i reread my post and realised it might be interpreted the same as the post you responded to. I felt the need to clarify. The complete void of any effort to integrate is mostly a trait demonstrated by the immigrants from central/south america. They clearly do not value the unique American culture on any level whatsoever. Brazillians(I dont really know if they are rightfully called hispanics or not since the speak portugese) are the biggest problem in my particular town. If my neighbors came from the Gaeltacht, overstayed their tourist visa for 9 years, and opened a shop with someone who only spoke Irish behind the counter, and brought over the village to live in his 3br house, Id be just as peeved about that.

Quite stereotypical, but that is essentially what my family did.... 90 years ago. From what I've seen, it's not the hispanic immigrants who move to the U.S. and refuse to assimilate. But I'm not going to get into pointing who it is that does.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Quite stereotypical, but that is essentially what my family did.... 90 years ago. From what I've seen, it's not the hispanic immigrants who move to the U.S. and refuse to assimilate. But I'm not going to get into pointing who it is that does.

The Amish

Edited March 25, 2010 by w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r

[Dan T 8]

Quite stereotypical, but that is essentially what my family did.... 90 years ago. From what I've seen, it's not the hispanic immigrants who move to the U.S. and refuse to assimilate. But I'm not going to get into pointing who it is that does.

so this is going to turn into some lakota thing or some such, ok i see where this is going, or 800 YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEARS as my father law says. whatever man

Edited March 25, 2010 by Dan T