border jumpers

[natty bumppo 297]

it wasnt clear to me that you were aware of the fact, my bad. argument finished

i have traveled to more than just the usa and brazil over the past few decades ...

[Dan T 8]

i have traveled to more than just the usa and brazil over the past few decades ...

im only 34, doing anything for a few decades is merely an abstract concept for me.

[Nina~ 431]

im actually a proponent of "why cant we do both" I havent expressed it here to date, but I am actually in favor of immigrants both retaining as much of their native culture/language usage as they can while simultaneously adapting to the new culture in the host country. I think the central/south american situation is unique in its back lash to requests for integration. setting up shops that are exclusionary to the host culture is also something I cannot abide by. I know latinos do not hold exclusive domain over this offense but they are the primary offenders in my neighborhood.

a cajun and amish person can speak english when it is expected of them, never met german speakers from texas but id be willing to bet that they too can speak english proficiently. ozzy ozbourne speaks english natively and i cant understand a damn thing he says. I even have trouble with my mother-in-law from co kerry.

Why is that such a big deal to you??

I love those ethnic stores and go inside to check it out all the time and discover a lot of little delicacies and treats from around the world. There was a huge Ukrainian immigrant population near where I grew up (most of them spoke none to little English)and I used to wander into their shops and discovered their delicious tortes. I also made friends with them and they showed me kindness and an understanding of a culture that I would probably never come across if chose to be upset that they were not trying to assimilate. Right now, there is a Filipino, Jordanian, Mexican & Colombian shops around my neighborhood and I'd rather go there than to Walmart!

[TBoneTX 45,304]

Dan is not incorrect when he notes all-Hispanic enclaves; there are also a great many Chinese/Vietnamese/Korean areas where people of that extraction do business and hang out. And, as Sara says:

it is not near as easy to learn English as it is to learn Spanish.......my mom is 59 years old and still has problems with it she was born here in the USA and raised here but as most Latin households Spanish is the first choice of language while at home.....or when we were little in the store because she didnt want anyone to be able to understand what she was gonna do to us if we didnt stop screaming or running off

This stuff is all true -- and it returns to earlier points of "how much opportunity is there to practice one's English," "what is an individual's personal capability to learn and improve upon a foreign language," and a new one, "in general, older people (even meaning anyone over age 25) have more trouble learning new languages than do younger people." Sara continues:

when i go into a Asian market i know i have to listen a little closer to what they are saying...the elderly people for the most part are not going to go to classes free or paid for to learn English

Bingo to both, si man.

I'll add that, back when I was visiting Mexico alone with a vocabulary of perhaps 20 words of very bad Spanish, I relied a lot upon body-language, including signs/signals/gestures but also trying to appear earnest and of good will. When I cross trails with anyone of another culture whose spoken English is limited or apparently nonexistent, I look for these nonverbal signs from them, respond positively to them, and speak slowly & clearly in my English communication. A lot of people can UNDERSTAND a foreign language before they're able to SPEAK much in it.

[natty bumppo 297]

im only 34, doing anything for a few decades is merely an abstract concept for me.

umm ... hate to break the news to you ... you've already breathed for 3+ decades

does that help with perspective?

[Dan T 8]

Why is that such a big deal to you??

I love those ethnic stores and go inside to check it out all the time and discover a lot of little delicacies and treats from around the world. There was a huge Ukrainian immigrant population near where I grew up (most of them spoke none to little English)and I used to wander into their shops and discovered their delicious tortes. I also made friends with them and they showed me kindness and an understanding of a culture that I would probably never come across if chose to be upset that they were not trying to assimilate. Right now, there is a Filipino, Jordanian, Mexican & Colombian shops around my neighborhood and I'd rather go there than to Walmart!

as long as the staff speaks enough english to help english speakers I have no issue with the mere existance of said shops, in fact I welcome more of them, but I am tired of going into a shop where the staff who have been here several years have less than a sentence worth

[TBoneTX 45,304]

I love those ethnic stores and go inside to check it out all the time and discover a lot of little delicacies and treats from around the world. There was a huge Ukrainian immigrant population near where I grew up (most of them spoke none to little English)and I used to wander into their shops and discovered their delicious tortes. I also made friends with them and they showed me kindness and an understanding of a culture that I would probably never come across if chose to be upset that they were not trying to assimilate. Right now, there is a Filipino, Jordanian, Mexican & Colombian shops around my neighborhood and I'd rather go there than to Walmart!

Oh, major "si, man" to all of this, especially the part that is now bolded, si man. Of all of our choices, why do we so seldom take the path that will most enhance our experience of life, huh man?

Incidentally: When I was younger, I was reluctant to enter "ethnic" stores or shops, because (1) I didn't know what to expect, and (2) I was afraid that I wouldn't be accepted. The first concern is now an avenue of discovery, and the second concern is a straw dog.

[Dan T 8]

umm ... hate to break the news to you ... you've already breathed for 3+ decades

does that help with perspective?

not really since for the at least half of the 1st one all I remember is learning not to eat sand.

[TBoneTX 45,304]

I am tired of going into a shop where the staff who have been here several years have less than a sentence worth

Again, man, and certainly not dissing your opinion: Are they showing you friendliness and courtesy in nonverbal ways? If not, are they merely shy, introverted types; cold, rude individuals; or frozen with fear that they'll try to say something and sound stupid or ignorant?

not really since for the at least half of the 1st one all I remember is learning not to eat sand.

From the regular sandbox, or the cat's box, si man? Edited March 31, 2010 by TBoneTX

[Dan T 8]

Oh, major "si, man" to all of this, especially the part that is now bolded, si man. Of all of our choices, why do we so seldom take the path that will most enhance our experience of life, huh man?

Incidentally: When I was younger, I was reluctant to enter "ethnic" stores or shops, because (1) I didn't know what to expect, and (2) I was afraid that I wouldn't be accepted. The first concern is now an avenue of discovery, and the second concern is a straw dog.

were really addressing several issues here that are getting obsured by the focus on spanish speakers. several questions really have to be asked.

number 1 for me is are they in our country in accordance with the currently existing laws, if not i dont give a damn what their native language is regardless of my fondness for their country/culture of origin my uniform response is "GET THE HELL OUT!" and come back when youre ready to follow the law. Am I an advocate for changing our laws? absolutely, but that does not reduce my anger towards those that ignored the ones that we have currently especially considering what I have had to go through in regards to my irish born wife. this also applies to work authorization, proper documentation, paying taxes etc.

number 2, should rightfully be under a sepreate thread to this one, and is actually a 3 parter and for me and takes in 1 factor of how willing you are to assimilate once you arrive and 2 is how long have you lived here continuously and 3 is how long do you intend to stay. Does assimilation mean that you completely discard the language/culture into which you were born and of which you may rightfully be exceedingly proud? not by my definition it doesnt, diversity is to be treasured. It does, however, mean that an immigrant make their best effort, and I realize not all people are equally intellectually equiped so there is some major degree of wiggle room on this measurement, to learn the language and act in accordance with the culture of the host country sufficient to interact with its native born citizens. I generally reserve my most severe anger for people who have lived here for 5 or more uninterrupted years and continue to choose to only associate with people from their own country of origin, shop only in the shops that cater to that country, and speak only the native language of that country. someone who just arrived last week, again I refer to the wiggle room, or plans to only live here for a few months I have much more tollerance of. do I feel that it adds to my life experience to interact with people who are, by accudent of birth, from a different culture/speak a different language than myself? you bet i do. that doesnt change the fact that i want to kick out as quickly as posible the people who have no notion of making the same effort.

[Dan T 8]

Again, man, and certainly not dissing your opinion: Are they showing you friendliness and courtesy in nonverbal ways? If not, are they merely shy, introverted types; cold, rude individuals; or frozen with fear that they'll try to say something and sound stupid or ignorant?

the short answer is dont know and dont care. maybe if the united states did not bend over backwards to allow spanish speakers to continue in spanish-only living in perpetuity Id be a little more understanding and sympathetic. and perhaps some of my anger as experessed here is directed at this country for taking those steps and does not wholely belong directed at the people themselves, but they sure as hell make it easy for people to lash out at them.

From the regular sandbox, or the cat's box, si man?

lol indeed

[TBoneTX 45,304]

were really addressing several issues here that are getting obsured by the focus on spanish speakers. several questions really have to be asked.

number 1 for me is are they in our country in accordance with the currently existing laws, if not i dont give a damn what their native language is regardless of my fondness for their country/culture of origin my uniform response is "GET THE HELL OUT!" and come back when youre ready to follow the law. Am I an advocate for changing our laws? absolutely, but that does not reduce my anger towards those that ignored the ones that we have currently especially considering what I have had to go through in regards to my irish born wife. this also applies to work authorization, proper documentation, paying taxes etc.

number 2, should rightfully be under a sepreate thread to this one, and is actually a 3 parter and for me and takes in 1 factor of how willing you are to assimilate once you arrive and 2 is how long have you lived here continuously and 3 is how long do you intend to stay. Does assimilation mean that you completely discard the language/culture into which you were born and of which you may rightfully be exceedingly proud? not by my definition it doesnt, diversity is to be treasured. It does, however, mean that an immigrant make their best effort, and I realize not all people are equally intellectually equiped so there is some major degree of wiggle room on this measurement, to learn the language and act in accordance with the culture of the host country sufficient to interact with its native born citizens. I generally reserve my most severe anger for people who have lived here for 5 or more uninterrupted years and continue to choose to only associate with people from their own country of origin, shop only in the shops that cater to that country, and speak only the native language of that country. someone who just arrived last week, again I refer to the wiggle room, or plans to only live here for a few months I have much more tollerance of. do I feel that it adds to my life experience to interact with people who are, by accudent of birth, from a different culture/speak a different language than myself? you bet i do.

A 99.44% "si, man" to nearly every word of the above -- very well-expressed.

that doesnt change the fact that i want to kick out as quickly as posible the people who have no notion of making the same effort.

A qualified "si, man" to this -- the exception being if those people are paralyzed by fear or culture-shock, are being terrorized within our borders somehow, or are objectively incapable of achieving even minimal integration for whatever reason.

maybe if the united states did not bend over backwards to allow spanish speakers to continue in spanish-only living in perpetuity Id be a little more understanding and sympathetic. and perhaps some of my anger as experessed here is directed at this country for taking those steps and does not wholely belong directed at the people themselves, but they sure as hell make it easy for people to lash out at them.

Again, expressed very well -- and exactly a point that I made some messages ago. More "melting pot" and fewer "separate containers," si man. [Edited to correct a fingergraphical error, si man.] Edited March 31, 2010 by TBoneTX

[Dan T 8]

A qualified "si, man" to this -- the exception being if those people are paralyzed by fear or culture-shock, are being terrorized within our borders somehow, or are objectively incapable of achieving even minimal integration for whatever reason.

the steps this country takes to cater to spanish speakers in general, in my town portuguese as well, I think is the source of a lot of this terrorism. The problem is exacerbated when certain groups backlash against any attempt on the citizens part to convince our government and businesses to stop this excessive hand-holding and favoritism toward a particular immigrant sub-set.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Dan T

[TBoneTX 45,304]

the steps this country takes to cater to spanish speakers in general, in my town poruguese as well, I think is the source of a lot of this terrorism. The problem is exacerbated when certain groups backlash against any attempt on the citizens part to convince our government and businesses to stop this excessive hand-holding and favoritism toward a particular immigrant sub-set.

Agreed, si man!

[Dan T 8]

Again, expressed very well -- and exactly a point that I made some messages ago. More "melting pot" and fewer "separate containers," si man. [Edited to correct a fingergraphical error, si man.]

which post #, i must have missed it