border jumpers

[Candy/SadanNasir 2]

Thankfully the laws that are on the books are more flexible than your opinions.

Are women who came to the US with no understanding of immigration law and then abused by their spouses who refuse to file for them wilful criminals too?

Or maybe the child that comes here with his or her parent and has no idea that they are illegal?

There are so many situations that can cause a person to fall out of status that it is just nonsensical to make blanket statements.

Ooh the luxury of thinking we are right.

[Candy/SadanNasir 2]

This is judgmental and overly simplistic. Have you talked to all, most, many, or any of them? Do you KNOW that what you claim is fact? Every person in my wife's Hispanic circle -- Mexican, Central American, or South American -- regardless of immigration status, would LOVE to learn English better. Not ONE of them thinks otherwise. It's not desire to learn, but OPPORTUNITY to learn, that holds them back. And, even if they are taking English classes, they have no chance to PRACTICE, because their husbands/wives are countrymen who are in the same linguistic pickle.

Fully 100% of my wife's amigas (female friends) are palpably JEALOUS of her, because she is married to me (a gringo) and can practice and receive correction on English grammar, spelling, orthography, & pronunciation. Also without exception, native Spanish-speakers whom I'VE run into are sensitive about their perceived lack of English skills, and they beam brightly when I reassure and encourage them.

At night sometimes, my wife will pick up a magazine at random -- anything from "Good Housekeeping" to the Mensa magazine to a medical journal -- and want to read a random page or paragraph to me. She does impressively well already, given her current stage of progress, and she drinks in the little rules & exceptions regarding pronunciation. She regularly states how fortunate she considers herself to have this opportunity, which her amigas do not. She confirmed my conjecture that native Spanish-speakers who do NOT have the chance to learn/practice end up speaking Spanish to one another precisely so they can COMMUNICATE in daily life.(Numerous compared with what?) And, see above.Say what, please?And yet you're so sure that those whom you criticize are so different from you, si man?

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

someone sure likes emoticons...............

[Candy/SadanNasir 2]

Actually there is but too many people object to it.

Simply implant a RFI, its smaller than the implantable birth control device, you could even swallow it. Every person would be automaticly swiped at every street corner and anyone without a RFI implant is deported. A swipe ie required to get a job an any employer who does not comply is shut down.

No more lost children and no more illegals...

OMG!!!!!!!! How can you type with that hood over your head!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unbelievable!!!!

Actually there is but too many people object to it.

Simply implant a RFI, its smaller than the implantable birth control device, you could even swallow it. Every person would be automaticly swiped at every street corner and anyone without a RFI implant is deported. A swipe ie required to get a job an any employer who does not comply is shut down.

No more lost children and no more illegals...

OMG!!!!!!!! How can you type with that hood over your head!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unbelievable!!!!

[Dan T 8]

Thankfully the laws that are on the books are more flexible than your opinions.

Are women who came to the US with no understanding of immigration law and then abused by their spouses who refuse to file for them wilful criminals too?

Or maybe the child that comes here with his or her parent and has no idea that they are illegal?

There are so many situations that can cause a person to fall out of status that it is just nonsensical to make blanket statements.

Ooh the luxury of thinking we are right.

i think,someone feel free to correct me if i am wrong, the current laws provide for a means of legalization for both of these instances. Just so we're clear did you mean that women were more likely to misunderstand the law or just that they were more like to be the abused party than would a man.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Post containing racially inappropriate comments has been removed. I will also remind everyone that name calling and insults are unacceptable.

[justashooter 430]

Puerto Ricans are American citizens at birth, douchebag.

actually, they are not. this is a widely held misconception. they have some of the privileges of an American citizen under the Jones Act (read it carefully), but they are still territorials living in a commonwealth, just like people from Guam, Wake island, etc. they cannot vote in a presidential election, do not participate in US taxation, and are not protected by constitutional rights except those specified in the P&I clause, or those specifically incorporated by congress or SCOTUS. they are not residents of the 50 United States or the D of C.

[Dan T 8]

actually, they are not. this is a widely held misconception. they have some of the privileges of an American citizen under the Jones Act (read it carefully), but they are still territorials living in a commonwealth, just like people from Guam, Wake island, etc. they cannot vote in a presidential election, do not participate in US taxation, and are not protected by constitutional rights except those specified in the P&I clause, or those specifically incorporated by congress or SCOTUS. they are not residents of the 50 United States or the D of C.

but one can hop on a plane to new york and boom instant citizen though, isnt that correct?

[TBoneTX 45,304]

TBone,

Man, I'm a big fan of yours and have huge respect for you. Si man. But let me approach this issue from my side, and please read it with an open mind, okay?

I'm German. Never had any pride in it. I made good money in Germany, but didn't really like it there much. I didn't come to the US for financial gain. I came because I love America, always have. I was just born in the wrong place.

I do not raise a German flag on my flag pole. I don't have a German flag on my car(s). I do not wear "Lederhosen." I do not listen to German music. I don't celebrate German holidays. I don't speak German if anybody is present who doesn't speak German, meaning in public. The moment I came to the US -- and keep in mind that I have been illegal for 13-some years -- I felt like an American. In fact, most people believed from the very beginning that I'm American. My wife is American. She believed I was an American when we started dating. To this day, nobody but her knows that I'm not an American. In one sentence: I worked hard to blend in and always felt as American as it gets.

Now let's look at the (admittedly stereotypical) Mexican in California (or Puerto Rican in Florida) and compare him to me, shall we?

He loves Mexico. If he had a choice, he would rather live in Mexico, yet lives in the US for financial gain.

He raises the Mexican flag in his yard. His car is plastered with Mexican flags and stickers of Brahma bulls. He listens to Mexican music and Mexican radio stations all day long. Loud! He celebrates Mexican holidays. Cinco de Mayo is more important to him than Independence Day. He marries a Mexican (American) woman. He raises his children as Mexican (Americans). He speaks Spanish with them. In one sentence: he doesn't put much effort into blending in to this society.

Because of this, and I know it's stereotypical (as I personally know Mexicans I didn't know were Mexicans until being told so!), people in general have a "problem" with Mexican immigrants. Wouldn't you agree with me that blending in assimilating into the cultural fabric of the society one immigrates to is of utmost importance? I think so. Si man!

Now please, enlighten me, us, where I'm thinking in the wrong direction. I love this discussion, and am open minded, willing to learn and to adjust my thinking. Help me!

Danke schoen, si man. I certainly agree that assimilating is important. "E pluribus unum" still appears on our money. Without ruminating, and purely off the top of my head, I believe that some of the "resistance" is due to encouragement of the prevailing political culture, which defines people as what they look like and assigns them to groups rather than operating according to the content of their characters; some is due to encouragement by truly radical groups (La Raza is one such); some is due to individuals' perhaps natural feeling that they aren't accepted, and so they cling to what is familiar & comfortable; some of the last item could even be a cry for help ("I want to assimilate but have no idea how; please reach out to me"); some is simply what these people consider healthy pride in their culture & background, and it's not intended to be a slap in the face to "us," although we perceive that it is; and it could even be that some of these "blatant advertisers" are making fun of themselves (toward this last, I once walked by a house where a Hispanic-looking guy was hanging a Mexican flag, and I said, "Viva Mejeeco, dude!" and we both nearly burst out laughing). What percentage of the "some of it" applies to the broad situation that you mention is completely open to conjecture, and I believe that (except in the politically motivated possibilities) it varies by individual. We have to resist temptations to lump everyone into one category.

The above is very much off the tip of my forebrain. I'll have to consult the wife (currently snoring like a rhinoceros, oof man) about the general question of Latin American assimilation. She did observe more than once that she had no idea "about" Mexican people, but she's impressed at their work ethic (as am I) and their treatment of her. I can say that anytime I needed help in the U.S., if a Mexican or Central American was around, he was willing to offer it. In Mexican border cities on solo visits, as a lost gringo who knew perhaps 20 words of very bad Spanish, I can tell you that complete strangers (who knew no English) assisted me without compunction -- without any thought that I might cheat or endanger them and without any hint of wanting payment or reward. Pardon the expression, but this treatment was rather "alien" to me, much like a throwback to small-town 1950s America.

Of course there are juvenile delinquents and "malos" (Spanish for "evil people"), just as there are juvy-Ds and bad guys here, too.

I perceive that, as a rule, Mexicans (here & in Mexico) are extremely family-oriented (they generally behave well so that their kids will see a good example), and that they're rather laid-back in their approach to life -- I don't see overt "intensity" (as we might define it) amidst their constant "work ethic" except when desperate merchants in the border cities (which have been decimated by outright lies from the U.S. media) have pestered me incessantly in order to make perhaps the only sale of their business day. But, I observe that the men & women work hard and stick to business. For five years, I've been collecting information like this for a book that I intensely want to write about Texas/Mexico border cities.

As far as the Spanish radio stations, I've rather gotten into them. On visits to the Rio Grande Valley in Texas, I listen to 98.5 FM ("all Mexico!") because of the usually-silly accordion music and to hear the sidekick of one of the DJs -- a chicken named "Pepito." Late last year, I was floored to hear Pepito -- in a commercial -- ask someone (in English!) what he was going to buy for Christmas at JC Penney.

Having experienced the other end of the "language barrier" in Mexico, I can certainly understand the Mexicans'/Latin Americans' situations and apprehensions here. I in no way approve of border-jumping, but of most of those who are here -- legally or otherwise -- there are things to respect. Let them enjoy their music & their holidays; how is that skin off my teeth, unless La Raza is confirmed to be behind it and using it to foment a takeover? As normal individual, family, or neighborhood behavior, it's not like some religion saying "I'm going to save your soul, or I'm going to kill you." The mistake that we're making, I believe, is seeing what we see and using it as a reason to exclude these Mexicans/Latin Americans from "our" American society -- attributing negative motives when it's equally possible that the motives are neutral, innocent, or an indirect plea to be included. If all 3 dozen of my wife's Hispanic circle claim that they're receptive to learning English better, and all of those (who have expressed an opinion) are jealous of my wife because she's married to a gringo who can help her speak English and assimilate, that's a firmly established pattern, si man? And an eye-opener for me, si man.

[sachinky 465]

I've always gone by the simple principle--"when in Rome..."

Edited March 30, 2010 by sachinky

[justashooter 430]

but one can hop on a plane to new york and boom instant citizen though, isnt that correct?

if a PR native immigrates to one of the 50 United States then they become a resident of that state and have full citizenship, including the right to vote, etc, in accordance with the laws of the state in which they live.

this PR immigrant thing is going to get interesting, as PR is rescinding record of birth for all PR people outside of PR beginning in july due to high incidence of identity fraud. PR citizens typically use a birth certificate 15-20 times in their lives to enter school, etc, so there are a lot of original copies floating around in PR. many of the schools and government offices holding opriginal copies have been compromised, and it is estimated that 40% of identity theft in the USA is tied to a stolen PR birth certificate.

people from various central american and carib countries have been buying these stolen original copies on the black market for decades and using them to enter USA. this issue is about to be dealt with. tens of thousands of "puerto ricans" are about to go illegal as the invalidity of "their" birth certificates becomes uncorrectable thru legitimate means.

[littlecrazyangel 1]

This is judgmental and overly simplistic. Have you talked to all, most, many, or any of them? Do you KNOW that what you claim is fact? Every person in my wife's Hispanic circle -- Mexican, Central American, or South American -- regardless of immigration status, would LOVE to learn English better. Not ONE of them thinks otherwise. It's not desire to learn, but OPPORTUNITY to learn, that holds them back. And, even if they are taking English classes, they have no chance to PRACTICE, because their husbands/wives are countrymen who are in the same linguistic pickle.

Fully 100% of my wife's amigas (female friends) are palpably JEALOUS of her, because she is married to me (a gringo) and can practice and receive correction on English grammar, spelling, orthography, & pronunciation. Also without exception, native Spanish-speakers whom I'VE run into are sensitive about their perceived lack of English skills, and they beam brightly when I reassure and encourage them.

At night sometimes, my wife will pick up a magazine at random -- anything from "Good Housekeeping" to the Mensa magazine to a medical journal -- and want to read a random page or paragraph to me. She does impressively well already, given her current stage of progress, and she drinks in the little rules & exceptions regarding pronunciation. She regularly states how fortunate she considers herself to have this opportunity, which her amigas do not. She confirmed my conjecture that native Spanish-speakers who do NOT have the chance to learn/practice end up speaking Spanish to one another precisely so they can COMMUNICATE in daily life.(Numerous compared with what?) And, see above.Say what, please?And yet you're so sure that those whom you criticize are so different from you, si man?

Yes I do speak Spanish and I talked with many Spanish speaking people. If you read more carefully I sad Mexicans and other Spanish speaking people. They have English as a second language courses for free. Everybody can learn English if they want to.

[littlecrazyangel 1]

English is not a hard language to learn at all, try Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Finnish, Hungarian and the list could go on

[TBoneTX 45,304]

If you read more carefully I sad Mexicans and other Spanish speaking people. They have English as a second language courses for free. Everybody can learn English if they want to.

I read very carefully, and I stand by my considered opinion of your post. Answer, please: Does EVERY community have English-as-a-second-language courses for free? Yes or no. Answer, please: On what basis do you found your sweeping assumption of "everybody can learn English if they want to"? Before you answer, please read my posts (between yours and this one) and address each of the obstacles to prove that they're NOT obstacles. Finally, in this post, what does "I sad Mexicans" mean?

[TBoneTX 45,304]

English is not a hard language to learn at all, try Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Finnish, Hungarian and the list could go on

Si, man; a lot of immigrants here are going to take those other languages as a second language. Try being even more irrelevant: "If a cat has kittens in the oven, that makes them biscuits!"

And again, how sweeping (if not arrogant) it is to say "English is not a hard language to learn at all." See my previous messages. If you instead meant to say "I did not find it hard to learn English at all," then that's different, but since I'm reading carefully and interpreting literally, I conclude that you meant what you said. Where is your evidence for what you said, please, or are you merely stereotyping, or making a grand assumption on the basis of your superior knowledge?