Steny Hoyer: Members are at risk

[Peikko 1,575]

Fear of violence is perfectly acceptable. Violence itself is not.

I'm with Paul & V on this.

Threatening violence for political ends is terrorism, that is not acceptable. What I question is how real of a threat this is and how much is political shenanigans, I suspect it is mostly the latter, and that is equally unconscionable.

The right thing? Such as the death panels they invented? Pulling the plug on grandma? Yeah, I'm sure that was the right thing to do.

He does have a point. The Democrats can be equally partisan and that produces equally destructive politics.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

He does have a point. The Democrats can be equally partisan and that produces equally destructive politics.

Yes, but this kind of obstructionism is new. There's no precedent for it.

[scandal 951]

Oh, boo hoo, blame the Republicans and everything's all right with the world. Even when they do the right thing you're not satisfied. What is it with Democrats on here being really sore winners?

Why do write "What is it with Democrats", when there is one person (BigDog) you are responding to?

I'm a Democrat. And I agree with you that cheap generalized blanket attacks like "Republicans are inciting violence" are false and unfair. I pointed out a few posts ago that Boehner renounced violence in the strongest terms, and he is not alone. Yes, some individual Republicans held up some stupid signs (Kill the bill) on Sunday. Yes, a firebrand called Rep. Stupak a babykiller. That doesn't mean that the GOP as a whole has become a barbarian horde. It DOES mean that they share the responsibility to call for civility and law and order, and to condemn any violence.

I couldn't care less whether mandating individuals to buy health insurance is constitutional or not. It's plain wrong. Private insurance companies are an inefficiency designed into the system and to feed such an inefficiency is simply inept, until you factor in the amount of money the pharmaceutical lobby threw into backing this Bill, after cutting a deal with the White House, when it smacks of being corrupt.

In a different parallel universe, I'd agree with you. I'd have an America with an efficient single payer system that efficiently reimburses health care providers on a set fee schedule. I grew up in Canada, I know how streamlined that makes things for the patient, the doctor's office, the hospital billing department. The money is collected efficiently through taxation and distributed efficiently without need for insurance paperwork, pre-approvals, and the entire American industry of CPT Code and HCPCS Code processors.

This is not that parallel universe. This our universe, our America. There are political realities that have been recognized decades ago. For better or for worse, healthcare reform in America has to take into consideration a private insurance market. This bill is not great, but it is good. And that is good enough for me, and for most Americans who could see the costs and the treatment denials spiraling out of control.

[Pooky 3,824]

Yes, but this kind of obstructionism is new. There's no precedent for it.

It has little to do with political obstructionism. The anger is directed at all politicians, more toward the Democrats as they are the party in power, but there is also hostility toward the Republicans. The anger is there because for all the "Debate" on healthcare reform, no-one paid much attention to what the American public was saying. The Republicans snagged the anti-reform message and tried to use it for their own ends and the Democrats simply ignored the majority of the public, who saw through the "reforms" to the grasping hands behind it and got sick of it.

There is a good reason that the approval rating of Congress is at 11% right now. It's that the American electorate is tired of the leeches, weasels and cronies that represent them at the moment not actually representing them at all, regardless of their political colours.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

It has little to do with political obstructionism. The anger is directed at all politicians, more toward the Democrats as they are the party in power, but there is also hostility toward the Republicans. The anger is there because for all the "Debate" on healthcare reform, no-one paid much attention to what the American public was saying. The Republicans snagged the anti-reform message and tried to use it for their own ends and the Democrats simply ignored the majority of the public, who saw through the "reforms" to the grasping hands behind it and got sick of it.

There is a good reason that the approval rating of Congress is at 11% right now. It's that the American electorate is tired of the leeches, weasels and cronies that represent them at the moment not actually representing them at all, regardless of their political colours.

The approval ratings for both the health care reform bill - however imperfect - and the President have gone up since the bill passed. There would have been less anger and more support if there wouldn't have been such a massive misinformation campaign. The GOP was all over that campaign and stirred the pot to a rather dangerous point.

[Peikko 1,575]

You don't think these calls for Republicans to 'call off the attack dogs' are equally inflammatory? Personally, I think it's disingenuous and dangerous, particularly at a time like this. I don't think there is any real threat of violence at all.

[scandal 951]

You don't think these calls for Republicans to 'call off the attack dogs' are equally inflammatory? Personally, I think it's disingenuous and dangerous, particularly at a time like this. I don't think there is any real threat of violence at all.

What then, exactly, is this?

Nobody thought something like kristallnacht would happen either, till it did.

Nobody thought JFK would wind up dead that sunny day in Texas, till he did.

When people threaten violence they get taken seriously by the authorities, as they should.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You don't think these calls for Republicans to 'call off the attack dogs' are equally inflammatory? Personally, I think it's disingenuous and dangerous, particularly at a time like this. I don't think there is any real threat of violence at all.

Actually, I think that everyone needs to take a step back and start acting civilized. The prospects aren't too great. Obstructionism is alive and well.

[Peikko 1,575]

What then, exactly, is this?

Nobody thought something like kristallnacht would happen either, till it did.

Nobody thought JFK would wind up dead that sunny day in Texas, till he did.

When people threaten violence they get taken seriously by the authorities, as they should.

I think there is a lot of hyperbole flying around at the moment. Threats of violence should be taken seriously by the FBI and proper authorities, but politicians do not need to run off at the mouth and fan the flames.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[scandal 951]

I think there is a lot of hyperbole flying around at the moment. Threats of violence should be taken seriously by the FBI and proper authorities, but politicians do not need to run off at the mouth and fan the flames.

Precisely. They should not run off at the mouth. They should not fan flames. What they should do is call for civility and lawful means of protest, for those who feel a need to protest.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

... politicians do not need to run off at the mouth and fan the flames.

Unfortunately, we're past that point, MC. The damage is done and now somehow those that fanned the flames need to find a way to contain them.

[Peikko 1,575]

Oh, come on, surely you need to be a moron to really believe that the Republicans support armed rebellion over this?

[Kevin and 10]

Oh, boo hoo, blame the Republicans and everything's all right with the world. Even when they do the right thing you're not satisfied. What is it with Democrats on here being really sore winners?

And then there's the reason why people are angry and it really has very little to do with the Republicans in the first place. People are angry because their representative Democracy just had an epic fail in the representation department. No-one is arguing that the majority of the electorate wanted healthcare reform. But there is a hardcore brand of deluded people who refused to acknowledge that a sturdy majority of the electorate did not want the brand of healthcare reform that the Democrats in Congress just foisted on the American people. Fully 60% of the electorate saw through the mediocre reforms being offered and into the dark heart that was the greed of the Democrats, adding pay-offs, vote buying, sweetheart deals and opt-outs to everyone who thought they could get something out of this mess, just to get the damn thing passed.

I couldn't care less whether mandating individuals to buy health insurance is constitutional or not. It's plain wrong. Private insurance companies are an inefficiency designed into the system and to feed such an inefficiency is simply inept, until you factor in the amount of money the pharmaceutical lobby threw into backing this Bill, after cutting a deal with the White House, when it smacks of being corrupt. Private insurance companies exist for one reason and that is to make money for their shareholders. This takes money out of the healthcare system and thus is an inefficiency. Ah, but pre-existing conditions are now covered, you say. That doesn't preclude insurance companies employing legions of "healthcare claims specialists" (I'm sure you've heard the radio ads), to analyse each claim in detail and generating a denial of coverage at every opportunity. The whole existence of private insurance companies is an overhead, and therefore an inefficiency in the system. This Bill just means the government is mandating we feed it some more and that's plain wrong.

This Bill could have been so much more than it is, but the Democrats couldn't see past their own grasping hands to make something worthwhile happen here. Some people are angry because they never wanted reform in the first place, some because this Bill goes 10, maybe 20% of the way it needed to go and most because they see the corrupt, vote-buying antics that gave this Bill enough votes to pass and don't like what they see in their representative government.

Come November, any chance of developing this Bill could be gone, if, as some expect, the Democrats lose heavily in the mid-terms. Because you can bet your life that the Republicans will do everything in their power to strangle as much of this Bill as they can, to hamstring President Obama when he comes up for re-election in 2012. That's what you get when you try baby steps when you needed a long jump. Incremental change wears out the American politician, as well as the American public. Face it, this is likely as far as we get with "healthcare" reform. That makes me angry, because we're stuck in the middle of nowhere and if this thing blows up, we're all screwed.

So don't sit there and pontificate that the Republicans are to blame for these threats and rag on them, even when they condemn them, as they rightly should. The threats are there because the Democrats failed to heed, or simply ignored as inconsequential, what the electorate was telling them, in voices as loud as they could make them. From what I have seen, the American electorate does not take kindly to being viewed as inconsequential.

Just as it always is. Everyone knows its a mess , but its always the same bait and switch. Next cycle Dems will be the villain and Repubs will be the heros.

If Repubs get a majority next round only a fraction of the health care act will be repealed and it won't be the parts that the people want. They will call it compromise.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Oh, come on, surely you need to be a moron to really believe that the Republicans support armed rebellion over this?

No, that's not what I'm suggesting - well, with the exception of Sarah "don't-retreat-instead-reload" Palin. But clearly, they've been fanning the flames and working hard to stir up a frenzy that has gone far beyond what's civil and acceptable and seemingly far beyond what they can control.

Those cross-hairs ain't co-incidental. And if you think that there aren't enough nuts out there that take the message literally, well...

[Peikko 1,575]

Bless her, Sarah isn't all there.