SLeone top female circumcisers abandon trade, burn instruments

[pedroh 21]

why I've only heard of necessary female circumcisions only in Islam?? I've never ever heard of medical reasons to circumcize a ####### other than in Islamic countries? #######? what do they know that the west doesn't know?

[Veiled Princess 1]

There are a lot of "muslims" and "self proclaimed shaykhs" who innovate things into the religion without any evidence.

Well, for what it's worth.. the article I pointed you to (http://www.worldofislam.netfirms.com/circumcision.html) quotes Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah's Majmoo’ al-Fataawa.

He isn't some "self-proclaimed shaykh".

According to Wikipedia, he lived from 1263 to 1328. He "was an Islamic scholar born in Harran, located in what is now Turkey, close to the Syrian border. He lived during the troubled times of the Mongol invasions. As a member of the Pietist school founded by Ibn Hanbal, he sought the return of Islam to its sources: the Qur'an and the sunnah (the prophetic tradition of Muhammad). He is also a primary intellectual source of the Wahhabi movement."

And in case you choose to scoff at Wikipedia as well, check out the External Links section on that page. Plenty of information to corroborate who this guy is.

I know who shaykh al-Islam is. I don't dispute him as a scholar. What I was pointing out about that site is that... 1. I can't get to the page... 2. when I got to the home page, there was no "about us" button so I don't know who the owner of the site is... I'm pretty sure shaykh al-Islam is not the owner of that site... 3. where is the reference that he actually said that and it's not just something made up and ascribed to him in error?

[Veiled Princess 1]

To the bolded part... as opposed to what??? Those orgasms we have in our feet?????

His source quotes weak hadith and makes rulings on such.... I showed you the hadith that it's allowed but with the restriction not to cut too much... for those with a half a brain (i realize I may be stretching a little for you there) it's easy to see that the point of allowing it was not to reduce her sexual urges but to correct a problem which is why he said not to cut too much.

If you'd like further proof how about this....

Volumn 001, Book 005, Hadith Number 280.

-----------------------------------------

Narated By Um-Salama : (The mother of the believers) Um Sulaim, the wife of Abu Talha, came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Verily Allah is not shy of (telling you) the truth. Is it necessary for a woman to take a bath after she has a wet dream (nocturnal sexual discharge)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Yes, if she notices a discharge."

Any mention of mutilating her down there to stop the wet dream??? NO!

Like I said before... you are failing to see the difference between the mutilation that is practiced in some cultures and the medical need that is allowed in Islam.

wow.... you pounce on the strangest things to prove a forgone conclusion you have and ignore the rest because it contradicts what you want to believe.. then go and try to belittle my intelligence without even knowing my degree of education. Honestly now...

and yes.. phyisiologically a woman CAN be brought to orgasm without penetration. and considering it is muscle spasms and can effect the entire body... yes the feet wasa good choice of words on your part.

and again.. you quote hadith where it is ALLOWED.. it doesnt make a distinction between for medical purposes or not at all. Medically there is NO NEED to cut away the #######, the ####### minor or major nor anything else for that matter. If there was a medical concern where an operation was needed.. again I will ask you.. do you not think that would be the decision of a MEDICAL DOCTOR vs the wishes of a CLERIC?

I am asking for your thoughts on this.. not quoted verses. those are someone elses thoughts... what are yours? Do you honestly condone the removal of a womans sexual area because it says it's ok?

Like I said before... you are failing to see the difference between the mutilation that is practiced in some cultures and the medical need that is allowed in Islam.

No, I have already stated time and time again that if the need is there (urinary blockage, deformity, what have you) then let the DOCTOR make the call.. you keep goin off about how the cleric can see the need without medical experience.

NO, the question I was asked and what is being implied is that my prophet condoned something bad and that he should have said without fail that it's forbidden. What I'm trying to help you understand is this... IF it's medically necessary, it's allowed.... what if he would have said "no, don't do it ever, it's forbidden"???? Then those women who need it would not be allowed "religiously" to have the procedure since we follow God's law above all else.

AND since he was asked about it and commented on it, we know that what those doctors and "shayks or imams" use it for is haraam. He never told anyone to be circumcised to decrease sexual desire. There is no proof at all that any of the female companions had this done... none of his wives... daughters... there is absolutely no sound hadith (that I know of) in which the prophet had this procedure done to any female in his family... ever... the prophet's wives are the mother's of the believers... we (muslim women) try very hard to emulate them in our actions because they were the best of women... if it was so commendable then why is there no mention of any of those women (the wives of the prophet OR the wives/daughters/sisters/aunts/neices/whoever of the companions) having had this procedure done?

This was yet another thing on this board to attempt to make Islam look barbaric and it's incorrect.

I realize a lot of people think it's gross or senseless that there are hadith that discuss a wide range of subjects that wouldn't normally be talked about in public but there's good reason for it. Islam is meant to cover every aspect of your life. There is nothing that you may encounter in your day to day life that you cant' find addressed in Islam, which is one of the things that makes it perfect and complete.

why I've only heard of necessary female circumcisions only in Islam?? I've never ever heard of medical reasons to circumcize a ####### other than in Islamic countries? #######? what do they know that the west doesn't know?

It is done in African countries.... not only by muslims but has also been practiced by christians and jews in that region as well. It was around before Islam... it has nothing to do with Islam... It is not something that most Arab countries have ever even heard of.

My husband had never heard of it before now.

[incanada1234 0]

why I've only heard of necessary female circumcisions only in Islam?? I've never ever heard of medical reasons to circumcize a ####### other than in Islamic countries? #######? what do they know that the west doesn't know?

Well you know how the men are - totally controlling and they treat the women like pieces of sh*t. To the point where they'll even control how sexually aroused they are or if they even WANT them to feel pleasure during sex. Because you know, if they DO enjoy sex, they may go have affairs with 10 different men. Women are just that evil, that at the slightest feeling of arousal they'll go hump the closest man. Women are not to be trusted, the stupid slutty b*tches. They need a good punch in the face and stomach, followed by cutting out their #######. It's the only way to keep them "good" and "pure" and "HOLY".

I'm not bitter.

[Ban Hammer 13,876]

why I've only heard of necessary female circumcisions only in Islam?? I've never ever heard of medical reasons to circumcize a ####### other than in Islamic countries? #######? what do they know that the west doesn't know?

Well you know how the men are - totally controlling and they treat the women like pieces of sh*t. To the point where they'll even control how sexually aroused they are or if they even WANT them to feel pleasure during sex. Because you know, if they DO enjoy sex, they may go have affairs with 10 different men. Women are just that evil, that at the slightest feeling of arousal they'll go hump the closest man. Women are not to be trusted, the stupid slutty b*tches. They need a good punch in the face and stomach, followed by cutting out their #######. It's the only way to keep them "good" and "pure" and "HOLY".

I'm not bitter.

i wonder if chastity belts would be a big seller in those countries

[incanada1234 0]

i wonder if chastity belts would be a big seller in those countries

Well obviously no; why would you invest in a chastity belt when you can just cut off her ####### for free? All that's needed is a knife and maybe a towel to stop the bleeding. Although come to think of it, the woman should have to towel herself off, not the person doing the severing. Afterall, it's her fault she even HAS a ####### to begin with.

[pedroh 21]

Well, so all that region is full of #######, muslims, jews and christians.. In this continent I've never heard of necessary medical female circumcision procedures.. ever..

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

In this continent I've never heard of necessary medical female circumcision procedures.. ever..

Veiled Princess posted a link earlier in this thread advocating what she calls a "hoodectomy" .. a form of female circumcision. That link has a list of doctors who will perform this procedure in the US.

Here is the list.

1. Female plastic surgeon: Board Certified Dr. Pamela J. Loftus, in Boca Raton, Florida. Her web site actually lists this procedure as one of her specialties. Go to http://www.drloftusplasticsurgery.com, which also shows two pictures of results from labiaplasties she has performed. The other contact information Dr. Loftus provides at her website is:

900 NW 13th St. Suite 103,

Boca Raton, FL 33486

Telephone: (561) 394-7494

No email address is provided at the website.

2. Board Certified OB/GYN in Bryan Texas, Dr. Royal H. Benson, III has been performing this surgery for twenty years and has a practice that specializes in female genital refinement procedures, including hoodectomy, which he lists as one of his specialties. Go to http://www.femalegenitalrefinement.com/, which also shows several before and after pictures of hoodectomies (with labiaplasties) he has performed. Dr. Benson also provides a patient case study.

The Southwest Center for Female Genital Refinement

3740 Copperfield Drive

Suite 105

Bryan, Texas 77802

Tel: 979-412-0358

Fax: 979-776-1314

No email address is provided at the website.

3. Dr. Robert H. Stubbs in Toronto, Ontario has substantial experience in performing the surgery.

Robert H. Stubbs, FRCPS (Canada), FACS (US)

Cosmetic Surgicentre

99 Yorkville Ave., Suite 212

Toronto, Ontario

Canada M5R 3K5

Tel.: 416-927-9900

Fax: 416-927-9189

Email: rhs@psurg.com

Website: http://www.psurg.com

On the website, Dr. Stubbs shows some examples of his surgeries:

Before and after pictures of a “clitoral unhooding” (which seems also to have included a labiaplasty).

Before and after pictures of a “genital enhancement” (which seems to have included both a labiaplasty and at least a partial removal of the clitoral hood.

I recommend anyone interested in this surgery to have a look at these pictures to judge the aesthetic effects of the surgery.

4. Another plastic surgeon who performs this surgery actually has a web page dedicated to the sorts of procedures he performs. Most of the information there regarding female genital surgery pertains to labiaplasty (with before and after pictures provided), but he also mentions removal of an excess of hood as an available option. It is worth comparing the photos of Dr. Alter’s results with those provided by Dr. Loftus (see [1], above). Dr. Loftus seems to remove more of the relevant flesh than Dr. Alter tends to do—and aesthetic consideration a prospective patient might wish to bear in mind in selecting one of these two surgeons. Compare each, as well, with the results offered in photos by Dr. Stubbs (see [3], above.

Dr. Alter’s contact information is:

Gary J. Alter, M.D.

Assistant Clinical Professor of Plastic Surgery

UCLA School of Medicine

Los Angeles, CA

Office Address:

435 North Bedford Drive, Suite 300

Beverly Hills, CA 90210

Phone: 310-275-5566

Fax: 310-271-0521

Email: altermd@earthlink.net

Website: http://www.altermd.com

Dr Alter’s work is mentioned in the article in, “I Had Cosmetic Surgery on My Genitals,” Marie Claire magazine, February, 2000. The article lists "clitoroplasty" as one of the available genital surgeries, and provides the following definition of "clitoroplasty":

“The hood of the ####### is removed for heightened sensitivity.”

(Most references to “clitoroplasty” in medical journals and reports reserve this term for the shaping of a ####### in cases of infants with ambiguous genitals, or for those seeking sex changes from male to female.)

Dr. Alter’s work is also mentioned in “The New Sex Surgeries,” Cosmopolitan magazine, November, 1998, p.146.

Dr. Alter’s explicates his special technique for labiaplasty in “A New Technique for Aesthetic ####### Minora Reduction,” Annals of Plastic Surgery 40, 1998, p. 287.

5. The surgery is also available in the Los Angeles area at:

Robert A. Gutstein, M.D. F.A.C.S. (Director)

Plastic Surgery Centers

1125 South Beverly Drive #600

Beverly Hills, CA

Phone: 310-277-0910 or 800-339-4968

Another office:

Plastic Surgery Centers

28222 Agoura Rd. Suite 102

Agoura Hills, CA

Phone: 818-991-6436 or 805-496-6551

Email: newyou@plasticsurgerycenters.com

Website: http://www.plasticsurgerycenters.com

An information request form is offered at the Web site:

http://www.plasticsurgerycenters.com/Info_...fo_request.html

Clitoral hood removal is not mentioned on the web page, but Dr. Gutstein will perform this surgery upon request. Based upon private information I have received from one of his clients, Dr. Gutstein tends not to remove the entire clitoral hood, when he performs this form of surgery, but prefers instead to trim it back just enough to expose the tip or glans of the #######. In performing a labiaplasty, however, Dr. Gutstein will remove the entire ####### minora (inner lips).

6. Also in Los Angeles:

California Center for Plastic Surgery

16311 Ventura Blvd., Suite 1010

Encino, CA 91436

S. Sean Younai, M.D. F.A.C.S. (Director)

Phone: 818-386-1222 or 877-434-4873

Email: info@beautifulself.com

Website: http://www.beautifulself.com

Clitoral hood removal is not mentioned on Dr. Younai’s website, but I know someone on whom Dr. Younai performed this surgery quite successfully, however. Like Dr. Gutstein, however (see 5, above), Dr. Younai seems to prefer not to remove the entire clitoral hood, but will remove enough to uncover the tip or glans of the #######.

7. Also in the Los Angeles are, a female plastic surgeon who says that the surgery is not uncommon and is easily done:

Linda Swanson, M.D., F.A.C.S.

23560 Madison Suite #105

Torrance, CA 90505

Phone: 562-596-0018

Fax: 562-596-0113

Email: lindaswansonmd@email.msn.com

Website: http://www.plasticsurgeryforme.com/home.html

Dr. Swanson also has an office in Los Alamitos:

3801 Katella Ave., Suite 402

Los Alamitos, CA 90720

(Same phone, fax, email, and website as above)

Clitoral hood removal is not mentioned on the Web page, but Dr. Swanson will make consultations to perform this surgery upon request.

8. The surgery is also available at the Tahoe Body Clinic (in Lake Tahoe, California).

The Tahoe Body Clinic

589 Tahoe Keys Blvd., Suite E5-8

S. Lake Tahoe, CA 96150

Phone: 530-541-3355 or 800-742-7387

Fax: 530-541-0110

Email: info@tahoeclinic.com

Website: http://www.tahoeclinic.com

Clitoral hood removal is not mentioned in the website, but several women say they had the surgery done there, and I have subsequently confirmed that the surgery is available at the Tahoe Clinic, which has extensive experience in performing this procedure.

9. In New York, a female plastic surgeon:

Michelle Copeland, D.M.D, M.D., F.A.C.S.

1001 Fifth Avenue (across from the Metropolitan Museum of Art)

New York, New York

Phone: 212-452-2200

Fax: 212-452-2208

Email: mcopeland@icnt.net

Website: http://www.drcopeland.com

Clitoral hood removal is not mentioned on the Web page, but Dr. Copeland will make consultations to perform this surgery upon request.

10. In Atlanta, Georgia, a female plastic surgeon:

Susan E. Kolb M.D.

Plastikos Surgery Center

4370 Georgetown Square

Atlanta, GA 30338

Phone: 770-457-4677

Email: drkolb@mindspring.com (Dr. Kolb would rather be telephoned to discuss the procedure, however, rather than emailed)

Webpage: http://www.plastikos.com

Clitoral hood removal is not mentioned on the Web page, but Dr. Kolb will do consultations to do this surgery upon request.

11. A Board Certified female plastic surgeon in Duxbury, Massachusetts, Christine Hamori, willing to consult with those seeking to have the surgery and has had many referrals from this site. Though hood removal is not mentioned at her website, but the before and after photos she supplied of labiaplasties she has done show excellent results.

Christine Hamori, M.D.

Cosmetic Surgery and Skin Spa

95 Tremont Street, Suite 28

Duxbury, MA 02332

Phone: 781-934-2200

Fax: 781-934-7301

Email: cah@christinehamori.com

Website: http://www.christinehamori.com

12. A female plastic surgeon in Columbus, Ohio:

Anne Taylor, M.D.

Anne Taylor Plastic Surgery, Inc.

5969 East Broad St.

Columbus, OH 43213

Phone: 614-864-6220

Fax: 614-864-4042

Email: dr@annetaylor.md; also ataylor@ienhance.com

When contacted in June 2001, Dr. Taylor said that she had performed ####### reduction (labiaplasty), but had not yet done a clitoral hood removal/reduction.

13. Mark Solomon, M.D, F.A.C.S.

610-667-7070

Bala Cynwyd, PA

http://www.marksolomonmd.com/

[pedroh 21]

yea but that's a cosmetic surgery.. or to enhance pleasure, is not the same like the stoopid reasons as "to stop bothering the husband with large #######' or 'to stop arousement"

[UmmSqueakster 54]

why I've only heard of necessary female circumcisions only in Islam?? I've never ever heard of medical reasons to circumcize a ####### other than in Islamic countries? #######? what do they know that the west doesn't know?

Actually, in Egypt, it's estimated that 70 to 90% of women have had some form of fgm. Among that population, it's practiced by both muslims and christians. And, I've heard medical reasons given by both coptic and muslim doctors there. Religious leaders from both groups have also come out strongly against it. I can say for certain that there, it's definately an issue of culture. I married into this culture, so I've investigated it since it effects me personally.

FGM is practiced in a wide swath of Africa, by a wide variety of ethnic and religious groups in those countries. Look at the country in the original post. 80-90% of the women in Siera Leone are circumsized. The population is 60% muslim, 30% animist and 10% christian.

Edited August 3, 2006 by rahma

[Ban Hammer 13,876]

yea but that's a cosmetic surgery.. or to enhance pleasure, is not the same like the stoopid reasons as "to stop bothering the husband with large #######' or 'to stop arousement"

maybe it's so large the husband feels insecure

Edited August 3, 2006 by charlesandnessa

[Veiled Princess 1]

yea but that's a cosmetic surgery.. or to enhance pleasure, is not the same like the stoopid reasons as "to stop bothering the husband with large #######' or 'to stop arousement"

This statement (which has been repeated more than once during this discussion) is just proof that it's a chore to have women's sexuality taken seriously by men of any religion... since when is it cosmetic for a woman to expect the satisfaction she was meant to have?

Is it cosmetic when men flock to their doctors for those "little blue miracles"???

Pfft....

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Ok, what's a little blue miracle?

[incanada1234 0]

Ok, what's a little blue miracle?

I'm guessing viagra.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Aah...