SLeone top female circumcisers abandon trade, burn instruments

[Mirorgate 0]

How does the priest know again if it's "messes up" down there? Wouldn't that be the area for a prefessional doctor to decide after full examination?

Why are you justifying a brutal practice as this?

I guess the "priest" has to just trust that the professional doctor knows what he's doing and isn't just mutilating people for the heck of it.

oh my bad... shoulda said "Cleric" then for you... and teh practice is proscribed by them to have done.. not a Dr for legit medical reasons.. but for religious ones. You're still defending a barbaric ritual that leaves MANY women and children scarred for life, and in dire need of real medical attention AFTER the procedure.

As the article you posted above.. the woman Dr in Mexico is doing it for purely cosmetic purposes

I had it [her own hood removal] in November 1991. The reason was that I never had a vaginal orgasm, so I wanted to improve the sensitivity of my #######, releasing it from the hood.

nothing wrong with stuff "down there", no corrective surgery.. but for her own pleasure which according to the article that Gupt posted:

Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the ####### which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

and

Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.

So again its a controlling issue for the men... I mean.. how dare the woman want sex as much or sometimes more than the man??

honestly.. why are you advocating the MUTILATION (its even in the name of the practice.. Female Genital MUTILATION) of women?

[Veiled Princess 1]

How does the priest know again if it's "messes up" down there? Wouldn't that be the area for a prefessional doctor to decide after full examination?

Why are you justifying a brutal practice as this?

I guess the "priest" has to just trust that the professional doctor knows what he's doing and isn't just mutilating people for the heck of it.

oh my bad... shoulda said "Cleric" then for you... and teh practice is proscribed by them to have done.. not a Dr for legit medical reasons.. but for religious ones. You're still defending a barbaric ritual that leaves MANY women and children scarred for life, and in dire need of real medical attention AFTER the procedure.

As the article you posted above.. the woman Dr in Mexico is doing it for purely cosmetic purposes

I had it [her own hood removal] in November 1991. The reason was that I never had a vaginal orgasm, so I wanted to improve the sensitivity of my #######, releasing it from the hood.

nothing wrong with stuff "down there", no corrective surgery.. but for her own pleasure which according to the article that Gupt posted:

Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the ####### which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

and

Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.

So again its a controlling issue for the men... I mean.. how dare the woman want sex as much or sometimes more than the man??

honestly.. why are you advocating the MUTILATION (its even in the name of the practice.. Female Genital MUTILATION) of women?

When you are unable to have an orgasm come back to me and talk about much you think it's "cosmetic" at that point ok????

Furthermore... I don't take any Islamic knowledge from the folks at the page he quotes from and perhaps you might see why

It is NOT prescribed by Islam for women to be circumcised... it is allowed in some cases when it's necessary and it's restricted to not mutilating the woman.

[Mirorgate 0]

When you are unable to have an orgasm come back to me and talk about much you think it's "cosmetic" at that point ok????

Furthermore... I don't take any Islamic knowledge from the folks at the page he quotes from and perhaps you might see why

It is NOT prescribed by Islam for women to be circumcised... it is allowed in some cases when it's necessary and it's restricted to not mutilating the woman.

go back and read your original quoting of her... she never said she couldnt achieve them... only vaginal orgasm. personally i blame the man for that cause he's not paying attention.

and honestly i do not care if you like his sources or not. it is obvious you disagree with his findings. your disagreeance does not make them wrong, only not to your liking. if you can prove them wrong then fine do so.. until then, my point stands.

even being "allowed" is wrong as its the clerics making those choices and not actual Drs' of medicine for a known wrong. and if it is not "prescribed" then why mutilate them? you seem to skip around that direct question often. like always.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

It is NOT prescribed by Islam for women to be circumcised... it is allowed in some cases when it's necessary ...

Ok, you don't like Islam Q & A. Would you rather Ask the Imam?

This is what it has to say:

It is Mustahabb (commendable) for females to circumcise. It is narrated in

an authentic Hadith quoted from Abu Dawood Shareef that during the Prophet

(Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)'s time there was a woman in Madinah who used

to perform circumcision for women (Fathul Bari vol. 16 p. 353)

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

If this quote is correct (and I have no reason to believe it is not) then even though female circumcision is not required, it is encouraged. Note it says "commendable". To a person of strong faith, that is a very strong incentive.

[Veiled Princess 1]

When you are unable to have an orgasm come back to me and talk about much you think it's "cosmetic" at that point ok????

Furthermore... I don't take any Islamic knowledge from the folks at the page he quotes from and perhaps you might see why

It is NOT prescribed by Islam for women to be circumcised... it is allowed in some cases when it's necessary and it's restricted to not mutilating the woman.

go back and read your original quoting of her... she never said she couldnt achieve them... only vaginal orgasm. personally i blame the man for that cause he's not paying attention.

and honestly i do not care if you like his sources or not. it is obvious you disagree with his findings. your disagreeance does not make them wrong, only not to your liking. if you can prove them wrong then fine do so.. until then, my point stands.

even being "allowed" is wrong as its the clerics making those choices and not actual Drs' of medicine for a known wrong. and if it is not "prescribed" then why mutilate them? you seem to skip around that direct question often. like always.

To the bolded part... as opposed to what??? Those orgasms we have in our feet?????

His source quotes weak hadith and makes rulings on such.... I showed you the hadith that it's allowed but with the restriction not to cut too much... for those with a half a brain (i realize I may be stretching a little for you there) it's easy to see that the point of allowing it was not to reduce her sexual urges but to correct a problem which is why he said not to cut too much.

If you'd like further proof how about this....

Volumn 001, Book 005, Hadith Number 280.

-----------------------------------------

Narated By Um-Salama : (The mother of the believers) Um Sulaim, the wife of Abu Talha, came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Verily Allah is not shy of (telling you) the truth. Is it necessary for a woman to take a bath after she has a wet dream (nocturnal sexual discharge)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Yes, if she notices a discharge."

Any mention of mutilating her down there to stop the wet dream??? NO!

Like I said before... you are failing to see the difference between the mutilation that is practiced in some cultures and the medical need that is allowed in Islam.

[Veiled Princess 1]

It is NOT prescribed by Islam for women to be circumcised... it is allowed in some cases when it's necessary ...

Ok, you don't like Islam Q & A. Would you rather Ask the Imam?

This is what it has to say:

It is Mustahabb (commendable) for females to circumcise. It is narrated in

an authentic Hadith quoted from Abu Dawood Shareef that during the Prophet

(Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)'s time there was a woman in Madinah who used

to perform circumcision for women (Fathul Bari vol. 16 p. 353)

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

If this quote is correct (and I have no reason to believe it is not) then even though female circumcision is not required, it is encouraged. Note it says "commendable". To a person of strong faith, that is a very strong incentive.

No, Ask the Imam is no better.... just because it was allowed in one hadith does not make it commendable for all.

Volumn 005, Book 059, Hadith Number 399.

-----------------------------------------

Narated By Jafar bin 'Amr bin Umaiya : I went out with 'Ubaidullah bin 'Adi Al-Khaiyar. ... Siba' came out and said, 'Is there any (Muslim) to accept my challenge to a duel?' Hamza bin 'Abdul Muttalib came out and said, 'O Siba'. O Ibn Um Anmar, the one who circumcises other ladies! Do you challenge Allah and His Apostle?' ....

Does insulting his mother as "the one who circumcises other ladies!" sound like she's doing something commendable? Also interesting to note that neither he nor his mother (the one who circumcised other ladies) was muslim.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

... for those with a half a brain (i realize I may be stretching a little for you there) it's easy to see that the point of allowing it was not to reduce her sexual urges but to correct a problem ...

Really?

I found the following on http://www.worldofislam.netfirms.com/circumcision.html

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah was asked about whether women should be circumcised or not. He replied in Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 21/114: "Praise be to Allaah. Yes, they should be circumcised, i.e., the top of the piece of skin that looks like a rooster’s comb should be cut. The Messenger of Allaah (S) said to the woman who did circumcisions: 'Leave something sticking out and do not go to extremes in cutting. That makes her face look brighter and is more pleasing to her husband.' That is because the purpose of circumcising a man is to make him clean from the impurity that may collect beneath the foreskin. But the purpose of circumcising women is to regulate their desire, because if a woman is not circumcised her desire will be strong. Hence the words 'O son of an uncircumcised woman' are used as an insult, because the uncircumcised woman has stronger desire. Hence immoral actions are more common among the women of the Tatars and the Franks, that are not found among the Muslim women. If the circumcision is too severe, the desire is weakened altogether, which is unpleasing for men; but if it is cut without going to extremes in that, the purpose will be achieved, which is moderating desire. And Allaah knows best."

Is this wrong too?

Does insulting his mother as "the one who circumcises other ladies!" sound like she's doing something commendable? Also interesting to note that neither he nor his mother (the one who circumcised other ladies) was muslim.

Interesting. Clearly, there is a lot of disagreement on this topic, even among the 'experts'.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Gupt

[pedroh 21]

circumcizing to diminish pleasure is stupid.. i dunno why they still allow it.. its dumb

[Veiled Princess 1]

http://www.worldofislam.netfirms.com/circumcision.html:

I can't access the link.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

http://www.worldofislam.netfirms.com/circumcision.html:

I can't access the link.

Fixed. Had a colon at the end by mistake.

[Veiled Princess 1]

I found the following on http://www.worldofislam.netfirms.com/circumcision.html

Interesting. Clearly, there is a lot of disagreement on this topic, even among the 'experts'.

Still can't access that site..... got to the main page once but there is not "about us" button so I have no idea who the owner of the site is, if they're credible or where they got that quote from and I can't get back to it.

Regarding the bolded part... Yes, that's why I've learned not to seek knowledge from just anyone. There are a lot of "muslims" and "self proclaimed shaykhs" who innovate things into the religion without any evidence.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

There are a lot of "muslims" and "self proclaimed shaykhs" who innovate things into the religion without any evidence.

Well, for what it's worth.. the article I pointed you to (http://www.worldofislam.netfirms.com/circumcision.html) quotes Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah's Majmoo’ al-Fataawa.

He isn't some "self-proclaimed shaykh".

According to Wikipedia, he lived from 1263 to 1328. He "was an Islamic scholar born in Harran, located in what is now Turkey, close to the Syrian border. He lived during the troubled times of the Mongol invasions. As a member of the Pietist school founded by Ibn Hanbal, he sought the return of Islam to its sources: the Qur'an and the sunnah (the prophetic tradition of Muhammad). He is also a primary intellectual source of the Wahhabi movement."

And in case you choose to scoff at Wikipedia as well, check out the External Links section on that page. Plenty of information to corroborate who this guy is.

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

http://www.worldofislam.netfirms.com/circumcision.html:

I can't access the link.

Fixed. Had a colon at the end by mistake.

who's was it?

[*Robert* 2]

the humor never stops.

[Mirorgate 0]

To the bolded part... as opposed to what??? Those orgasms we have in our feet?????

His source quotes weak hadith and makes rulings on such.... I showed you the hadith that it's allowed but with the restriction not to cut too much... for those with a half a brain (i realize I may be stretching a little for you there) it's easy to see that the point of allowing it was not to reduce her sexual urges but to correct a problem which is why he said not to cut too much.

If you'd like further proof how about this....

Volumn 001, Book 005, Hadith Number 280.

-----------------------------------------

Narated By Um-Salama : (The mother of the believers) Um Sulaim, the wife of Abu Talha, came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Verily Allah is not shy of (telling you) the truth. Is it necessary for a woman to take a bath after she has a wet dream (nocturnal sexual discharge)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Yes, if she notices a discharge."

Any mention of mutilating her down there to stop the wet dream??? NO!

Like I said before... you are failing to see the difference between the mutilation that is practiced in some cultures and the medical need that is allowed in Islam.

wow.... you pounce on the strangest things to prove a forgone conclusion you have and ignore the rest because it contradicts what you want to believe.. then go and try to belittle my intelligence without even knowing my degree of education. Honestly now...

and yes.. phyisiologically a woman CAN be brought to orgasm without penetration. and considering it is muscle spasms and can effect the entire body... yes the feet wasa good choice of words on your part.

and again.. you quote hadith where it is ALLOWED.. it doesnt make a distinction between for medical purposes or not at all. Medically there is NO NEED to cut away the #######, the ####### minor or major nor anything else for that matter. If there was a medical concern where an operation was needed.. again I will ask you.. do you not think that would be the decision of a MEDICAL DOCTOR vs the wishes of a CLERIC?

I am asking for your thoughts on this.. not quoted verses. those are someone elses thoughts... what are yours? Do you honestly condone the removal of a womans sexual area because it says it's ok?

Like I said before... you are failing to see the difference between the mutilation that is practiced in some cultures and the medical need that is allowed in Islam.

No, I have already stated time and time again that if the need is there (urinary blockage, deformity, what have you) then let the DOCTOR make the call.. you keep goin off about how the cleric can see the need without medical experience.