"The Religion of Peace"

[sarah and hicham 3]

It IS a peaceful religion- it's principles are very peaceful... it's goal is peace.

Actually, I agree - its goal IS peace....once they've killed and/or converted the non-believers to islam so that the world is one big islamic state.

Once again, if a Muslim is killing others then really shouldn't be grouped with what Islam really is which is peace. They separate themselves from other "sects" of Islam and they think it's ok to kill, fight, inflict terror... however this is not truly Islam... it's what they have made of it unfortunately.

[chri'stina 190]

My opinions only, but I am not sure if a truly peaceful religion exists. Even if people want to say "oh but look at Hinduism, etc", no, it has it's problems too with corrupt Guru's, or the twisting of the caste system. Even in Buddhist philosophy there are hard questions to answer on karma and the punishment of things you don't even know you did, in your "past life" til you are good enough to enter nirvana.

I would also not call Christianity completely a "peaceful religion". But I would say the overall theme of the bible, when you read from beginning to end, is for man to be at peace with God like we were in the beginning. But it does not always come about in a peaceful way. There are also times of justice and punishment along with times of joy and salvation. And I know many people want to bring up the old testament, with the old law written in it and etc. to make the bible look awful. But to know the whole story you need to read the whole bible or read a summary of it's events overall. It has a timeline, and events that happened in a certain order for a purpose. The word religion to me means man trying to make his way to God, whereas the bible emphasizes a real relationship with God, to be pursued through Jesus. So I would never say any religion is truy peaceful. My beliefs are that only God can give true peace, not rituals or ceremonies or chants that become meaningless, etc.

I have only read a smal amount of the Qur'an and would maybe read more for my own sake to know what it all says, though I have read about the doctrinal beliefs compared to the bible. I know in Islam they believe the bible is corrupted and so we have some wrong info, but in the Qur'an it's almost like it reversed things that Jesus came and did. It went back to Old Testament type of days. (not eating pork, for example...)

I don't have a whole bunch of knowledge on the subject of Islam (though I have tried reading more about it), but just wanted to say I don't think any religion can be called truly peaceful.

Edited August 2, 2006 by stina&suj

[sarah and hicham 3]

No, no religion can be called truly peaceful due to the people who make it something other than peace.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

...you could probably come to the conclusion that Christianity is everything but a religion of peace.

Again, Fisch, no-one is saying that Christianity is perfect; only that Islam is a dangerous,

militant, intolerant, incendiary religion.

And I'm saying that Islam like Christianity is not perfect, but also not as bad as you and other people maintain. It is because of the portrayal of Islam as the enemy (which in my opinion it is clearly not) that a dialogue between people in Muslim countries and people in the Western world can't enter into a dialogue to resolve the current crisis. As Erekose keeps pointing out, the problem is not the religion or the Qu'ran but the entire canopy of history, economy, international relations, etc. that is at the root of Islamic terrorism. And as long as we continue to ignore the root causes and focus on religion instead we're headed for catastrophe.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Even if people want to say "oh but look at Hinduism, etc", no, it has it's problems too with corrupt Guru's, or the twisting of the caste system.

Not to take this discussion off-topic, but I figured it's important to tell you that the caste system in Hinduism, as originally intended, was worse than the worst form of persecution the white man could ever come up with. It was twisted later to make it more palatable, in order to allow the Hindu elite (Brahmins) to competitively market their faith against an insurgent Buddhism and Jainism.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

...you could probably come to the conclusion that Christianity is everything but a religion of peace.

Again, Fisch, no-one is saying that Christianity is perfect; only that Islam is a dangerous,

militant, intolerant, incendiary religion.

I give up with some of these people though. If you really think it's a peaceful religion, you're missing a marble or two. Or you just REALLY don't want to face reality.

Noone claims its a peaceful religion; it's because you can't get over your point of view (which is extreme and lacking perspective) that you and others can't see the nuances or the fact that Islam is just like other religions. Get rid of your blinders and don't resort to personal attacks. My marbles might not all be in place but at least I'm trying to understand that there is more to the current problem in the Middle East than plain religion. To think that assumes that all Middle Easterners are somehow intellectually deficient, which is something that I would never assume of anyone.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

...you could probably come to the conclusion that Christianity is everything but a religion of peace.

Again, Fisch, no-one is saying that Christianity is perfect; only that Islam is a dangerous,

militant, intolerant, incendiary religion.

I give up with some of these people though. If you really think it's a peaceful religion, you're missing a marble or two. Or you just REALLY don't want to face reality.

Noone claims its a peaceful religion; it's because you can't get over your point of view (which is extreme and lacking perspective) that you and others can't see the nuances or the fact that Islam is just like other religions. Get rid of your blinders and don't resort to personal attacks. My marbles might not all be in place but at least I'm trying to understand that there is more to the current problem in the Middle East than plain religion. To think that assumes that all Middle Easterners are somehow intellectually deficient, which is something that I would never assume of anyone.

Hence the claims that much of the anti-islamic rhetoric is essentially racist in nature.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Cian,

On the subject of rape in Islam, an interesting page from Islam Q & A. It sounds like Islam allows slavery and the punishment for raping a free woman is different from the punishment for raping a slave woman.

The Arabic word ightisaab refers to taking something wrongfully by force. It is now used exclusively to refer to transgression against the honour of women by force (rape).

[...]

Islam has a clear stance which states that this repugnant action is haraam and imposes a deterrent punishment on the one who commits it.

Islam closes the door to the criminal who wants to commit this crime. Western studies have shown that most rapists are already criminals who commit their crimes under the influence of alcohol and drugs, and they take advantage of the fact that their victims are walking alone in isolated places, or staying in the house alone. These studies also show that what the criminals watch on the media and the semi-naked styles of dress in which women go out, also lead to the commission of this reprehensible crime.

The laws of Islam came to protect women's honour and modesty. Islam forbids women to wear clothes that are not modest and to travel without a mahram; it forbids a woman to shake hands with a non-mahram man. Islam encourages young men and women to marry early, and many other rulings which close the door to rape. Hence it comes as no surprise when we hear or read that most of these crimes occur in permissive societies which are looked up to by some Muslims as examples of civilization and refinement! In America – for example – International Amnesty stated in a 2004 report entitled “Stop Violence Against Women” that every 90 seconds a woman was raped during that year. What kind of life are these people living? What refinement and civilization do they want the Muslim women to take part in?

The punishment for rape in Islam is same as the punishment for zina, which is stoning if the perpetrator is married, and one hundred lashes and banishment for one year if he is not married.

Some scholars also say that he is required to pay a mahr to the woman.

Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

In our view the man who rapes a woman, whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a “dowry” like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case. End quote.

Al-Muwatta’, 2/734

Shaykh Salmaan al-Baaji (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

In the case of a woman who is forced (raped): if she is a free woman, the one who forced her must pay her a “dowry” like that of her peers, and the hadd punishment is to be carried out on him. This is the view of al-Shaafa’i, and it is the view of al-Layth, and it was also narrated from ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib (may Allaah be pleased with him).

Abu Haneefah and al-Thawri said: the hadd punishment is to be carried out on him but he is not obliged to pay the “dowry”.

The evidence for what we say is that the hadd punishment and the “dowry” are two rights, one of which is the right of Allaah and the other is the right of the other person. So they may be combined, as in the case of a thief whose hand is cut off and he is required to return the stolen goods. End quote.

Al-Muntaha Sharh al-Muwatta’, 5/268, 269

Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The scholars are unanimously agreed that the rapist is to be subjected to the hadd punishment if there is clear evidence against him that he deserves the hadd punishment, or if he admits to that. Otherwise, he is to be punished (i.e., if there is no proof that the hadd punishment for zina may be carried out against him because he does not confess, and there are not four witnesses, then the judge may punish him and stipulate a punishment that will deter him and others like him). There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her, which may be proven by her screaming and shouting for help. End quote.

Al-Istidhkaar, 7/146

Secondly:

The rapist is subject to the hadd punishment for zina, even if the rape was not carried out at knife-point or gun-point. If the use of a weapon was threatened, then he is a muhaarib, and is to be subjected to the hadd punishment described in the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The recompense of those who wage war against Allaah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter”

[al-Maaidah 5:33]

So the judge has the choice of the four punishments mentioned in this verse, and may choose whichever he thinks is most suitable to attain the objective, which is to spread peace and security in society, and ward off evildoers and aggressors.

[chri'stina 190]

Even if people want to say "oh but look at Hinduism, etc", no, it has it's problems too with corrupt Guru's, or the twisting of the caste system.

Not to take this discussion off-topic, but I figured it's important to tell you that the caste system in Hinduism, as originally intended, was worse than the worst form of persecution the white man could ever come up with. It was twisted later to make it more palatable, in order to allow the Hindu elite (Brahmins) to competitively market their faith against an insurgent Buddhism and Jainism.

Ok.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

...you could probably come to the conclusion that Christianity is everything but a religion of peace.

Again, Fisch, no-one is saying that Christianity is perfect; only that Islam is a dangerous,

militant, intolerant, incendiary religion.

I give up with some of these people though. If you really think it's a peaceful religion, you're missing a marble or two. Or you just REALLY don't want to face reality.

Noone claims its a peaceful religion; it's because you can't get over your point of view (which is extreme and lacking perspective) that you and others can't see the nuances or the fact that Islam is just like other religions. Get rid of your blinders and don't resort to personal attacks. My marbles might not all be in place but at least I'm trying to understand that there is more to the current problem in the Middle East than plain religion. To think that assumes that all Middle Easterners are somehow intellectually deficient, which is something that I would never assume of anyone.

Hence the claims that much of the anti-islamic rhetoric is essentially racist in nature.

Exactly.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Islam Q & A, on the subject of slavery in Islam. It appears that Muslims are allowed to have slave women (only kuffar women who they conquer during a war) but they can't have sex with them.

Slaves (men and women) may be taken in the wars that take place between Muslims and kaafirs, not in wars that are fought amongst the Muslims at times of tribulation.

[...]

Shaykh al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The reason why a person may be taken as a slave is his being a kaafir and waging war against Allaah and His Messenger. If Allaah enables the Muslims who are striving and sacrificing their lives and their wealth and all that Allaah has given them to make the word of Allaah supreme over the kaafirs, then He allows them to enslave the kuffaar when they capture them, unless the ruler chooses to free them or to ransom them, if that serves the interests of the Muslims.

Adwa’ al-Bayaan, 3/387

Thirdly:

The mujaahideen take possession of slave women as they take possession of the spoils of war. It is permissible for the one who gains possession of male or female slaves to sell them. In both cases – owning a slave through battle or through purchase – it is not permissible for a man to have intercourse with a slave woman until after she has had one menstrual cycle from which it may be established that she is not pregnant. If she is pregnant, then he must wait until she has given birth.

[...]

The relationship between a man and his female slave should be announced publicly and not kept secret. That is because there are rulings that stem from this announcement, such as if they have children, and so as to ward off any suspicions that people who see them together may have concerning him and her.

Seventhly:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) owned some male and female slaves, among whom were the following:

Ibn al-Qayyim said:

Zayd ibn Haarithah ibn Shuraaheel, the beloved of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He freed him and arranged his marriage to his freed slave woman Umm Ayman, and she bore him Usaamah. His other slaves include Aslam, Abu Raafi’, Thawbaan, Abu Kabshah Sulaym, Shaqraan (whose name was Saalih), Rabaah (who was Nubian), Yassaar (who was also Nubian and was killed by the ‘Arniyeen); Mid’am and Kirkirah (another Nubian) – these two were killed at Khaybar. They also included Anjashah al-Haadi and Safeenah ibn Farookh, whose real name was Mihraan, but the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) called him Safeenah (= “ship”) because they used to make him carry their luggage when they traveled, so he said, “You are a ship (anta safeenah).” Abu Haatim said that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) freed him; someone else said that Umm Salamah freed him. The Prophet’s slaves also included Anasah, whose nickname was Abu Mashrah; Aflah; ‘Ubayd; Tahmaan – also known as Keesaan; Dhakwaan; Mihraan; Marwaan – although it was said that this was another name of Tahmaan, and Allaah knows best; Hunayn; Sandar; Fudaalah (who was Yemeni); Maaboor (who was a eunuch); Waaqid; Abu Waaqid; Qassaam; Abu ‘Usayb and Abu Muwayhabah.

His female slaves included: Salma (Umm Raafi’); Maymoonah bint Sa’d; Khadrah; Radwa; Razeenah; Umm Dameerah; Maymoonah bint Abi ‘Usayb; Maariyah and Rayhaanah.

Zaad al-Ma’aad, 1/114-116

Eighthly:

It is rare nowadays to find slaves in the shar’i sense in which it is permissible to be intimate with them etc. That is because most of the Muslims have long since given up the obligation of jihad for the sake of Allaah, in addition to their position of weakness and humiliation before their kaafir enemies, so that many of the majority-Muslim nations have signed the protocol that expressly forbids slavery and strives to put an end to it, which was agreed upon in the United Nations in 1953.

Based on that we must be very careful in examining any case where people are bought and sold as slaves, and we must also beware of the misinterpretation of the word amah (pl. imaa’) (= slave woman) which some new Muslims understand to mean that enslavement takes place simply by paying the woman some money and agreeing to have intercourse with her. This is like prostitution which is now widespread in some immoral places, night clubs and telephone sex services.

We ask Allaah to help us and you to be patient with regard to matters of our religion and to protect us from falling into evil.

[kofuku 0]

I actually wonder if those "millions of peaceful law abiding muslims" you mentinoed are the ones that AREN'T following the religion. Those are the ones that would probably leave islam if they could/dared.

Would you dare to say that the million law abiding US Muslims that live in a "free" society are not practicing correctly and cannot leave Islam? Please enlighten me so I can tell my husband to give it up.

I dunno if quoting got messed up, or something added to the original quote...but Marissa, is your husband Muslim????

Thanks Frances for catching this. My husband is Muslim and there are some other USC women I know that are married to Muslim men, although we are not Muslim. For some to say, without knowing him, that he is not practicing his faith and therefore law abiding is a cop out. They know very little about the Muslim community.

Christine