"The Religion of Peace"

[danae 0]

VJ - different day, same sh#t

Yup.

I for one feel sad that VJ seems to be so consumed with religious debate all the time- there is nothing good to read anymore!

IMHO if you have to debate and defend something so furiously, your 'god' isnt doing his job. Someone once told me how they thought the world had it all wrong. That in all actuality whom we percieve as 'god' is probably the devil, and the devil actually 'god'. Due to the fact that so much that is done in the religious names cause so much bad in the world- the devil has recruited people to do his dirty work in a very sly manner. 'god' on the other hand sits back and amuses himself at the devils stupidity, becuase if he really was All Powerful he could take everyone to heaven with him anyway.

Now I dont believe this, on the account that I dont believe in god or the devil. I just think its f@@ked up that people spend so much of the life they KNOW they have trying to get to the one they THINK they have, have no proof they have, and most probably dont have.

It wouldnt bother me were it not for all the problems, pain and suffering the implications of this have on our world. Religion breeds hate, and I want no part in it.

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

Or, perhaps we study the sirah, emerse ourselves in our faith, and come to a different conclusion than you do about what our faith asks us to do

So let me ask you - do you try to be like your prophet Mohammed?

which part of "being like" do you mean?

examples that come to mind are:

-the part about having 15 wives?

-the part about having a spouse that was 6 years old at the time of marriage and said marriage consumated when the wife was 9?

-the part about killing a rival and marrying the widow?

please specify what you mean by "be like" as i'm very confused

[kofuku 0]

Or, perhaps we study the sirah, emerse ourselves in our faith, and come to a different conclusion than you do about what our faith asks us to do

So let me ask you - do you try to be like your prophet Mohammed?

which part of "being like" do you mean?

examples that come to mind are:

-the part about having 15 wives?

-the part about having a spouse that was 6 years old at the time of marriage and said marriage consumated when the wife was 9?

-the part about killing a rival and marrying the widow?

please specify what you mean by "be like" as i'm very confused

I'm confused, too. Are you talking about the polygamists in Arizona using Christianity to abuse women?

Edited August 2, 2006 by kofuku

[almaty 19]

VJ SHEESH....

[PlatyPius 5]

VJ - different day, same sh#t

Yup.

I for one feel sad that VJ seems to be so consumed with religious debate all the time- there is nothing good to read anymore!

IMHO if you have to debate and defend something so furiously, your 'god' isnt doing his job. Someone once told me how they thought the world had it all wrong. That in all actuality whom we percieve as 'god' is probably the devil, and the devil actually 'god'. Due to the fact that so much that is done in the religious names cause so much bad in the world- the devil has recruited people to do his dirty work in a very sly manner. 'god' on the other hand sits back and amuses himself at the devils stupidity, becuase if he really was All Powerful he could take everyone to heaven with him anyway.

Now I dont believe this, on the account that I dont believe in god or the devil. I just think its f@@ked up that people spend so much of the life they KNOW they have trying to get to the one they THINK they have, have no proof they have, and most probably dont have.

It wouldnt bother me were it not for all the problems, pain and suffering the implications of this have on our world. Religion breeds hate, and I want no part in it.

For the record, I agree with you. I am neither Christian, nor Jewish, nor Muslim. It is my belief that religion causes far more pain and suffering than anything else on the planet. However, my curiosity always gets me in trouble. I was a religion minor in college, and I'm still fascinated with religions. I have my views about religion, but I try to keep them out of my replies and topics. I get defensive when attacked, but I can't get defensive about religion, as I have none.

I think for me it's that the middle eastern/muslim thing is so FOREIGN to me. There are not a lot of either near where I live, so I've never been really exposed to the culture. The religion, yes, but not the actual culture. I ask my questions, post a controversial post or two, and then try to learn what I can from the responses. If I were going simply on that, though, I'd probably have to believe that Muslims are quick to anger, bloodthirsty, cruel, unaccepting of anyone else in the world, consider women to be property, and absolutely adoringly worship their Prophet.

This is my reason for referring to the Mean Sisters in this topic. Two in particular. If they were my only exposure to Islam/M.E. people, I would run far away and start a web site calling for the nuking of the middle east. There are a few here who really stand out as the counterpoint to those, though. rahma is one of them. What this has done, though, is left me just as confused as I was before. I still don't know what the culture of the M.E. really is like. I guess it's probably somewhere in the middle.

[Sister Fracas 5]

I actually wonder if those "millions of peaceful law abiding muslims" you mentinoed are the ones that AREN'T following the religion. Those are the ones that would probably leave islam if they could/dared.

Would you dare to say that the million law abiding US Muslims that live in a "free" society are not practicing correctly and cannot leave Islam? Please enlighten me so I can tell my husband to give it up.

I dunno if quoting got messed up, or something added to the original quote...but Marissa, is your husband Muslim????

[incanada1234 0]

I actually wonder if those "millions of peaceful law abiding muslims" you mentinoed are the ones that AREN'T following the religion. Those are the ones that would probably leave islam if they could/dared.

Would you dare to say that the million law abiding US Muslims that live in a "free" society are not practicing correctly and cannot leave Islam? Please enlighten me so I can tell my husband to give it up.

I dunno if quoting got messed up, or something added to the original quote...but Marissa, is your husband Muslim????

No! I don't know what happened there either and I didn't even see that when reading replies. Weeeeeeird.

[Sister Fracas 5]

No! I don't know what happened there either and I didn't even see that when reading replies. Weeeeeeird.

*cues the Twilight Zone theme song*

[incanada1234 0]

No! I don't know what happened there either and I didn't even see that when reading replies. Weeeeeeird.

*cues the Twilight Zone theme song*

*closes eyes and wishes for Mulder*

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

I actually wonder if those "millions of peaceful law abiding muslims" you mentinoed are the ones that AREN'T following the religion. Those are the ones that would probably leave islam if they could/dared.

Would you dare to say that the million law abiding US Muslims that live in a "free" society are not practicing correctly and cannot leave Islam? Please enlighten me so I can tell my husband to give it up.

I dunno if quoting got messed up, or something added to the original quote...but Marissa, is your husband Muslim????

oh man........i'd pay some serious money to see those wedding vows exchanged if that were the case

do you, incanada, promise to love honor and obey *bang bang bang* *thud*

and that concludes our ceremony........

[Fischkoepfin 1]

I did. I meant specifically your comment to "stone women to death for being brutally raped". Does one consider rape and adultery the same thing?

The religion is so brutal that they probably consider rape to be adultery.

Which brings us back to my earlier point: in the present day in the US, blaming the rape victim rather than the rapist is not an uncommon things to do. Conflating rape and adultery is not a Muslim thing at all. Neither is the idea of stoning adulteresses.

You might think that there is a difference because people in the US don't engage in actual stoning, but that doesn't change that the victim is viewed as the real perpetrator. Social shunning is a form of punishment that while not causing physical violence is nevertheless a punishment.

As to your idea that Islamic culture is somehow archaic, maybe that is the case but it is an insight growing out of our education and supposedly modern point of view. I'm not too sure whether we have the right to judge othe cultures for their perceived wrongs when there's lots of stuff in our culture that is as archaic. I was just reading something on conventional (between sovereign nations) and unconventional (against an immoral and illegitimate foe) warfare in the seventeenth century, and I was surprised in how much the rules applying to both seem to cloud our perception of war and the laws governing or absent from combat today. Similar things could be said about perceptions of indecency in modern America which make the Puritans look like adherents of sexual liberation.

Doesn't it say in the bible when Jesus tries to prevent the stoning of the adulteress that those without sin should throw the first stone. Maybe it would be good to keep that in mind before hurling rocks at a culture alien to us.

And no, I'm not condoning human rights violations in the Middle East, but I'm also not closing my eyes to the human rights violation right here.

[incanada1234 0]

oh man........i'd pay some serious money to see those wedding vows exchanged if that were the case

do you, incanada, promise to love honor and obey *bang bang bang* *thud*

and that concludes our ceremony........

I dunno, even THAT scenario is a bit too civilized.

[incanada1234 0]

I did. I meant specifically your comment to "stone women to death for being brutally raped". Does one consider rape and adultery the same thing?

The religion is so brutal that they probably consider rape to be adultery.

Which brings us back to my earlier point: in the present day in the US, blaming the rape victim rather than the rapist is not an uncommon things to do. Conflating rape and adultery is not a Muslim thing at all. Neither is the idea of stoning adulteresses.

You might think that there is a difference because people in the US don't engage in actual stoning, but that doesn't change that the victim is viewed as the real perpetrator. Social shunning is a form of punishment that while not causing physical violence is nevertheless a punishment.

As to your idea that Islamic culture is somehow archaic, maybe that is the case but it is an insight growing out of our education and supposedly modern point of view. I'm not too sure whether we have the right to judge othe cultures for their perceived wrongs when there's lots of stuff in our culture that is as archaic. I was just reading something on conventional (between sovereign nations) and unconventional (against an immoral and illegitimate foe) warfare in the seventeenth century, and I was surprised in how much the rules applying to both seem to cloud our perception of war and the laws governing or absent from combat today. Similar things could be said about perceptions of indecency in modern America which make the Puritans look like adherents of sexual liberation.

Doesn't it say in the bible when Jesus tries to prevent the stoning of the adulteress that those without sin should throw the first stone. Maybe it would be good to keep that in mind before hurling rocks at a culture alien to us.

And no, I'm not condoning human rights violations in the Middle East, but I'm also not closing my eyes to the human rights violation right here.

Yeah, the thing is - I never said "our" culture is perfect by any means. All I was simply saying is that THAT particular culture/religion/whatever is completely barbaric. Sorry but no way can you compare the two. Go to thereligionofpeace.com and read *" The List " of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 5 Months* and then find me a list of ANY OTHER religion and/or culture that comes close to that.

[Bosco 1]

Yeah, the thing is - I never said "our" culture is perfect by any means. All I was simply saying is that THAT particular culture/religion/whatever is completely barbaric. Sorry but no way can you compare the two. Go to thereligionofpeace.com and read *" The List " of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 5 Months* and then find me a list of ANY OTHER religion and/or culture that comes close to that.

I just looked at that site. I looked at "jihad du jour".

The first article, about the Jordanian, doesn't mention the religion of the victim or her family. Christians in the Middle East engage in honor killings too.

Terror raid turns into child porn. How is this about religion or culture? This is a sick man and there are plenty of pedophiles of all religions and no religion. My former neighborhood was a Sunday School teacher and molested his daughter's friends.

I could go on, but my point is this is not about Islam, it is about people who do bad things. A website about serial killers could be used to make generalizations about American men, since nearly 85% of serial killers are from this country and most tend to be religious Christians. The site would not be an accurately reflection of either Christians or American males.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I did. I meant specifically your comment to "stone women to death for being brutally raped". Does one consider rape and adultery the same thing?

The religion is so brutal that they probably consider rape to be adultery.

Which brings us back to my earlier point: in the present day in the US, blaming the rape victim rather than the rapist is not an uncommon things to do. Conflating rape and adultery is not a Muslim thing at all. Neither is the idea of stoning adulteresses.

You might think that there is a difference because people in the US don't engage in actual stoning, but that doesn't change that the victim is viewed as the real perpetrator. Social shunning is a form of punishment that while not causing physical violence is nevertheless a punishment.

As to your idea that Islamic culture is somehow archaic, maybe that is the case but it is an insight growing out of our education and supposedly modern point of view. I'm not too sure whether we have the right to judge othe cultures for their perceived wrongs when there's lots of stuff in our culture that is as archaic. I was just reading something on conventional (between sovereign nations) and unconventional (against an immoral and illegitimate foe) warfare in the seventeenth century, and I was surprised in how much the rules applying to both seem to cloud our perception of war and the laws governing or absent from combat today. Similar things could be said about perceptions of indecency in modern America which make the Puritans look like adherents of sexual liberation.

Doesn't it say in the bible when Jesus tries to prevent the stoning of the adulteress that those without sin should throw the first stone. Maybe it would be good to keep that in mind before hurling rocks at a culture alien to us.

And no, I'm not condoning human rights violations in the Middle East, but I'm also not closing my eyes to the human rights violation right here.

Yeah, the thing is - I never said "our" culture is perfect by any means. All I was simply saying is that THAT particular culture/religion/whatever is completely barbaric. Sorry but no way can you compare the two. Go to thereligionofpeace.com and read *" The List " of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 5 Months* and then find me a list of ANY OTHER religion and/or culture that comes close to that.

Again if we can reasonably separate the old testament 'fire and brimstone' from christianity, is it reasonable to assume that muslims can do the same. Clearly they can, because millions upon millions of them aren't engaging in these violent activities.

As Fischkoefin says

As to your idea that Islamic culture is somehow archaic, maybe that is the case but it is an insight growing out of our education and supposedly modern point of view.

Seems to me that fundamentalism stems from educational, cultural, social and economic factors rather than simply the religion, but that's just my take.