"The Religion of Peace"

[PlatyPius 5]

I still don't understand why there are people defending a religion that treats women worse than dogs.

I'd be curious to read the scriptures that condone or promote that sort of thing. Again I know little about Islam, I'm just wondering whether it this behaviour is specifically social/cultural issues or is an integral part of the specific tenets of the religion.

Does it matter if it's in their scriptures or not? The religion's own PROPHET treated his women like garbage, so why would anyone want to be a part of what he created?

I still don't understand why there are people defending a religion that treats women worse than dogs.

Which one of the world religions is treating women consistently any better???

Most religions I know of are paternalistic and try to restrain women in any possible way...

And how many religions do you know of that stone their women to death for being brutally raped?

Well, Judaism used to prescribe public stoning for unruly children. Does that count? Probably not, since that was long ago.

Ok, what about Fundi Christian zealots who refuse medical treatment for their children because "God will provide...."? Not quite the same, but usually results in death just the same.

[pedroh 21]

I still don't understand why there are people defending a religion that treats women worse than dogs.

I'd be curious to read the scriptures that condone or promote that sort of thing. Again I know little about Islam, I'm just wondering whether it this behaviour is specifically social/cultural issues or is an integral part of the specific tenets of the religion.

Does it matter if it's in their scriptures or not? The religion's own PROPHET treated his women like garbage, so why would anyone want to be a part of what he created?

I still don't understand why there are people defending a religion that treats women worse than dogs.

Which one of the world religions is treating women consistently any better???

Most religions I know of are paternalistic and try to restrain women in any possible way...

And how many religions do you know of that stone their women to death for being brutally raped?

owned?

well, the early christians in USA burned 'witches'.. but that was a long time ago

[Fischkoepfin 1]

I still don't understand why there are people defending a religion that treats women worse than dogs.

I'd be curious to read the scriptures that condone or promote that sort of thing. Again I know little about Islam, I'm just wondering whether it this behaviour is specifically social/cultural issues or is an integral part of the specific tenets of the religion.

Does it matter if it's in their scriptures or not? The religion's own PROPHET treated his women like garbage, so why would anyone want to be a part of what he created?

I still don't understand why there are people defending a religion that treats women worse than dogs.

Which one of the world religions is treating women consistently any better???

Most religions I know of are paternalistic and try to restrain women in any possible way...

And how many religions do you know of that stone their women to death for being brutally raped?

They are stoned for adultery not rape, which if I remember correctly is what the Old Testament recommends as well.

The fact that rape is viewed as adultery is a problem but that is also not only happening in Muslim societies. Even in our supposedly "enlightened" society, rape victims are often considered to be at fault as well.

Edited August 2, 2006 by Fischkoepfin

[PlatyPius 5]

owned?

well, the early christians in USA burned 'witches'.. but that was a long time ago

Actually, that was very very rare. Most were hanged. I think one was pressed to death, and one was burned. The rest were hanged. Believe me.....I've had to research this one extensively to reply to new Fluffy McWiccans who spout off about "Remember the Burning Times!!!!!111"

Still a valid point, though. Puritans were a nasty bunch.

Edited August 2, 2006 by Cian

[incanada1234 0]

You guys are naming stuff that happened thousands of years ago. As anyone with any intelligence knows, the world was a lot more inhumane then. But the muslim religion - these people are doing these archaic things NOW, in the 21st effin' century!

Ok, what about Fundi Christian zealots who refuse medical treatment for their children because "God will provide...."?

Geez, what kind of Christians are you hanging around? I've never heard that in my life. If it does happen, certainly it doesn't happen even a FRACTION as much as women being stoned in the middle east.

[chri'stina 190]

owned?

well, the early christians in USA burned 'witches'.. but that was a long time ago

...... Puritans were a nasty bunch.

Yes when you really look at what they believed and taught, it was off the wall. They also killed some Christians during those times, who wouldn't believe the false stuff they were preaching. (just threw the label of witch or heretic on them)

Edited August 2, 2006 by stina&suj

[incanada1234 0]

The fact that rape is viewed as adultery is a problem but that is also not only happening in Muslim societies. Even in our supposedly "enlightened" society, rape victims are often considered to be at fault as well.

Yeah, and a couple idiots shunning a rape victim is the EXACT SAME as a group of religion men stoning one.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

In any case, that's my peace/piece as one of the mean girls.

Actually, I don't consider you one of the Mean Girls.... ME/NA, yes, but not Mean.

As for the MSNBC article.... how else are Americans to know what the laws of Pakistan are? Are we to spend 10 years studying the laws of each country on the planet so that we can understand them well enough to have an opinion? Seems rather impractical. Not to mention the fact that the article dealt with Pakistan lawmakers saying that the law needs to change. Are we to not believe that they know about the law, either?

I would simply posit that one should take declaration of "sharia says this" or "islamic law says that" with a grain of salt, and to not snidely make comments about "religion of peace" based on the contents of a news article.

The reformation of Pakistani law is facination, but as with any aspect of the law, I'd rather study it a bit more in depth before I engage in conversation about it. I've spent 2 years studying to be a paralegal, and the more classes I take, the more I realize I know nothing. It provides me enough to read some scholarly articles on certain aspects of american law, but it certainly doesn't give me everything I need to know to debate constitutional law with Gerald Gunther (well, he's dead, but if he were alive).

*shrugs*

[PlatyPius 5]

owned?

well, the early christians in USA burned 'witches'.. but that was a long time ago

...... Puritans were a nasty bunch.

Yes when you really look at what they believed and taught, it was off the wall. They also killed some Christians during those times, who wouldn't believe the false stuff they were preaching. (just threw the label of witch or heretic on them)

Actually, research indicates that none of them were really witches. There's only one who is a "possible"....she was a natural healer. The others were just not "womanly" enough, or were accused by others.

Ok, what about Fundi Christian zealots who refuse medical treatment for their children because "God will provide...."?

Geez, what kind of Christians are you hanging around? I've never heard that in my life. If it does happen, certainly it doesn't happen even a FRACTION as much as women being stoned in the middle east.

http://www.watchman.org/cults/chrdeath.htm

Happens quite frequently, really. There are usually a few cases per year here in Indiana.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You guys are naming stuff that happened thousands of years ago. As anyone with any intelligence knows, the world was a lot more inhumane then. But the muslim religion - these people are doing these archaic things NOW, in the 21st effin' century!

What specifically in the muslim religion encourages this? Where are the relevant lines of scripture?

[PlatyPius 5]

You guys are naming stuff that happened thousands of years ago. As anyone with any intelligence knows, the world was a lot more inhumane then. But the muslim religion - these people are doing these archaic things NOW, in the 21st effin' century!

What specifically in the muslim religion encourages this? Where are the relevant lines of scripture?

True. I brought this up as a law of Pakistan. I commented on Islam as far as how it is *perceived* and implemented, not how it is supposed to be. As I said on page one (I think), I have nothing against the religion itself, it's some of its followers that I have an issue with.

[incanada1234 0]

What specifically in the muslim religion encourages this? Where are the relevant lines of scripture?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

However, punishments are authorized by other passages in the Quran and Hadiths for certain crimes (e.g., extra-marital sex, adultery), and are employed by some as rational for extra-legal punative action while others disagree (quotations provided by Syed Kamran Mirza):

Quran-24:2 "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day."

Sahi Muslim No. 4206: "A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God's forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her."

Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65: Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of an adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."

Edited August 2, 2006 by incanada1234

[Ban Hammer 13,634]

throws more gas on the fire

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=61...81614&hl=en

[Sister Fracas 5]

VJ - different day, same sh#t

Edited August 2, 2006 by Frances

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What specifically in the muslim religion encourages this? Where are the relevant lines of scripture?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

However, punishments are authorized by other passages in the Quran and Hadiths for certain crimes (e.g., extra-marital sex, adultery), and are employed by some as rational for extra-legal punative action while others disagree (quotations provided by Syed Kamran Mirza):

Quran-24:2 "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day."

Sahi Muslim No. 4206: "A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God's forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her."

Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65: Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of an adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."

Fair do's. At least we now have a reasonable talking point related the specific tenets of the religion.

That said, this is arguably little different from the type of material that features in the Old Testament for example, the only difference here is whether or not the people who take part in this sort of activity in arab countries do so out of a geniune set of spirtual beliefs, or are just going through the motions ritualistically.

It was my understanding, for example, that the New Testament supercedes much of the Old, yet you still see many self-professed Christians trotting out with rhetoric and opinions (and even acting in a manner) representative of the Old Testament. Which is why I say that christianity as it is practiced by a good many people, is not christianity at all - but rather a corrupted version of Old Testament Judaism.

I'm still of the opinion that the reasons that middle-eastern countries have poor human rights records lies predominantly in the history of the region, as well as social and cultural factors. Religion only comes into it in the most superficial way. How else do you account for the millions of peaceful law abiding muslims around the world?