"The Religion of Peace"

[PlatyPius 5]

"after reading some of the questions in the above, it seems that you can't even fart without first asking if such is permissible."

That was exactly what I was going to post, but decided it was too irreverent. LOL

Edited August 2, 2006 by Cian

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

"after reading some of the questions in the above, it seems that you can't even fart without first asking if such is permissible."

That was exactly what I was going to post, but decided it was too irreverent. LOL

[PlatyPius 5]

"after reading some of the questions in the above, it seems that you can't even fart without first asking if such is permissible."

That was exactly what I was going to post, but decided it was too irreverent. LOL

Oh, NAUGHTY!

[Jenn! 918]

The only thing to do about it is to fight the these ideologies in the places we live rather than complaining about the rise of these ideologies (which as mentioned before masks the truth anyway) abroad.

Any ideas? It seems to be quite a formidable task.

[incanada1234 0]

I still don't understand why there are people defending a religion that treats women worse than dogs.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

The only thing to do about it is to fight the these ideologies in the places we live rather than complaining about the rise of these ideologies (which as mentioned before masks the truth anyway) abroad.

Any ideas? It seems to be quite a formidable task.

It is a formidable task, but there are small things anyone appalled by the rise of global fundamentalism can do. Writing letters to anyone spreading hate in the name of religion in your local paper is one thing, contradicting people who use social gatherings to spread their beliefs is another (meaning, dinner parties are always political), and then there's always running for public office like the school board or something. I honestly believe that if those who are unhappy with the rise of nationalism, fundamentalism, and xenophobia keep complaining about it whereever they go can make a difference. Because way too often we're too willing to be polite by avoiding controversy, but silence is not the way to convince people.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I still don't understand why there are people defending a religion that treats women worse than dogs.

I'd be curious to read the scriptures that condone or promote that sort of thing. Again I know little about Islam, I'm just wondering whether it this behaviour is specifically social/cultural issues or is an integral part of the specific tenets of the religion.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

I still don't understand why there are people defending a religion that treats women worse than dogs.

Which one of the world religions is treating women consistently any better???

Most religions I know of are paternalistic and try to restrain women in any possible way...

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Pakistan has a lot of issues they need to work through, first and foremost being seperating tribal customs with their interpretation of Islamic law. The traditional, classically accepted shariah rules regarding rape are as follows:

Are Raped Women Asked to Bring Four Witnesses?

If a person makes an allegation of adultery against another person (male or female) he or she must produce four witnesses to support such an allegation; otherwise, he or she is guilty of slandering, which is a grave offense in Islam, for we are not to tarnish the honor of anyone.

A woman who has been raped cannot be asked to produce witnesses; her claim shall be accepted unless there are tangible grounds to prove otherwise. To insist that she provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”

The thing about Islamic Law (sharia) is that it is in fact, a complex legal system. Walk into a law library and you'll see shelves and shelves and shelves chocked full of the law and cases interpreting the law. One doesn't become qualified to argue the law (lawyer) and interpret the law (judge) by simply reading a few news articles or picking a random volume of a legal digest off the shelf. They have to commit to studying for several years before the state will give them license to practice law.

Why do people think Islamic law is any different? The internet abounds with insta scholars on Islam, but it's like lay people thinking they can submit a brief to the supreme court. There are certainly sources of islamic rulings online, but those too should be taken with a grain of salt. Who is the scholar? What's his madhab? What silsila is he a part of?

And when reading news articles, where did they get their information on sharia? I sure as heck wouldn't take my islamic information from a msnbc article anymore then I would take my information on civil liberties from some columnist who usually writes about fishing.

Certainly muslims do dumb ### things. I doubt any muslim here would disagree with that. But to hold up news articles as definative examples of what all muslims believe or what islam teaches ignores the rich legal history we have and the disagreements within. It ignores muslims who work to change the misogyny and unfairness that has infected our leadership.

One of these is a pakistani woman who was the victim of unjust tribal law and the inept pakistani justice system, Mukhtar Mai. Who was the first person to offer her assistance? Her village imam. When she came to speak here in the US, she emphasized over and over again how we need to reach to islam to find our strength and to return to it to prevent injustices like what happened to her.

As for the whole "religion of peace" bit, I've also been party to some discussions about this catch phrase. It was first widely used post September 11, when muslims here and abroad were called upon to defend their faith. For us, what happened that day was so far from what we hold dear to our hearts, it was all that we could gather to say was that these people in no way reflect how we practice islam. For me, islam brings peace, peace to my heart, peace to my interactions with people, peace in my daily life.

Now that we've had some time to gather our thoughts, I do believe it's time to offer a more nuanced, complex statement. Certain people, especially internet pundits, use "religion of peace" in a mocking way, to point out and say, see, see, let's point and laugh at those idiotic muslims, there's is obvious a religion of war. I would propose that Islam is neither strictly a religion of peace nor a religion of war. No, it's a practical religion, which when followed properly will lead to balance, order, and yes, peace. It does permit war, within limits, with the end goal of stability and peace.

In any case, that's my peace/piece as one of the mean girls.

[Jenn! 918]

The only thing to do about it is to fight the these ideologies in the places we live rather than complaining about the rise of these ideologies (which as mentioned before masks the truth anyway) abroad.

Any ideas? It seems to be quite a formidable task.

It is a formidable task, but there are small things anyone appalled by the rise of global fundamentalism can do. Writing letters to anyone spreading hate in the name of religion in your local paper is one thing, contradicting people who use social gatherings to spread their beliefs is another (meaning, dinner parties are always political), and then there's always running for public office like the school board or something. I honestly believe that if those who are unhappy with the rise of nationalism, fundamentalism, and xenophobia keep complaining about it whereever they go can make a difference. Because way too often we're too willing to be polite by avoiding controversy, but silence is not the way to convince people.

All good ideas. Thanks. I think the biggest problem is that people who hold these ideas are the types who refuse to listen to other ideas without immediately scoffing at them. The argument always seems to go back to political correctness and the idea that any politically correct statement must be false.

[Ric Flair 0]

Wooooo!

Ric Flair is always looking for a peace.

Wooooo!

[Fuzzness 2]

what is sharia law and is it required for all muslims to follow?

Wooooo!

Ric Flair is always looking for a peace.

Wooooo!

piece, not peace

[incanada1234 0]

I still don't understand why there are people defending a religion that treats women worse than dogs.

I'd be curious to read the scriptures that condone or promote that sort of thing. Again I know little about Islam, I'm just wondering whether it this behaviour is specifically social/cultural issues or is an integral part of the specific tenets of the religion.

Does it matter if it's in their scriptures or not? The religion's own PROPHET treated his women like garbage, so why would anyone want to be a part of what he created?

I still don't understand why there are people defending a religion that treats women worse than dogs.

Which one of the world religions is treating women consistently any better???

Most religions I know of are paternalistic and try to restrain women in any possible way...

And how many religions do you know of that stone their women to death for being brutally raped?

[PlatyPius 5]

In any case, that's my peace/piece as one of the mean girls.

Actually, I don't consider you one of the Mean Girls.... ME/NA, yes, but not Mean.

As for the MSNBC article.... how else are Americans to know what the laws of Pakistan are? Are we to spend 10 years studying the laws of each country on the planet so that we can understand them well enough to have an opinion? Seems rather impractical. Not to mention the fact that the article dealt with Pakistan lawmakers saying that the law needs to change. Are we to not believe that they know about the law, either?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I still don't understand why there are people defending a religion that treats women worse than dogs.

I'd be curious to read the scriptures that condone or promote that sort of thing. Again I know little about Islam, I'm just wondering whether it this behaviour is specifically social/cultural issues or is an integral part of the specific tenets of the religion.

Does it matter if it's in their scriptures or not? The religion's own PROPHET treated his women like garbage, so why would anyone want to be a part of what he created?

The jews were still stoning women for adultery, despite Jesus telling them it was a bad idea.

Its all relative, as Fischkoepfin says - and yes it matters because people are making claims that a specific belief system is inherently evil, and I suspect those making the claims have little more knowledge of Islam than I do. Asking for some specific validation of the claims (outside of cultural / social differences) doesn't strike me as particularly unreasonable.

That said, the folks on one side of the fence on this issue seem fairly content to rely on sweeping assumptions without necessarily knowing anything about Islam, for example. I won't agree to their interpretation of the issues, because I disagree fundamentally with the assumptions that they are basing their arguments on.