Attitudes of Posters

[LIFE'SJOURNEY 970]

Yeah, use the one clumsy and awkward sentence in my rant to prove your point that I have a limited grasp of the English language. I don't exactly use Nobel-prize winning prose to post on VJ and neither does anybody else. Evidently, I'm fluent in the language--surely, you got that from my post, if nothing else. That said, one's command of the language would have to be more than "limited" if one can't understand simple things such as name, date of birth, address, parent's name, spouse's address, etc. and write them down. I am more than capable of writing down my residence history / employment history and such -- I don't need my husband to fill them out for me. None of the forms are complicated (apart from the slightly confusing I-864) and someone with even a rudimentary understanding of the language can fill them out.

Unless being a USC automatically means one has superlative English language skills or special form-filling talents, your point is moot. Maybe I should mock your use of irrelevant punctuation marks to prove my point?

I'm not knocking anyone who needs help--but I'm tired of being told indirectly that my husband doesn't care enough or isn't invested in the process -- otherwise he'd be here asking the questions.

A fifth grader can fill out forms, it's the understanding of content that they are providing and attesting to that this information is correct, is the problem when the USC didn't bother to read the guidelines to try to have a good understanding of them before they posted their question(s). This process is not just about filling out a form, it's about the USC understanding the visa process, along with their responsibility and obligation to their SO/husband. When a poster comes on this board and start crying about how can I send my SO back home after they have gone thru this process, this comment tells anyone with good common sense that the USC did not truly understand the intial process. You are not buying/leasing a SO or a husband, so there is no sending back or returning them as if they have brought a shirt from a department store. Are they truly aware of the 10 year commiment they have commited themselves to when they have signed the I-864 Affidavit of Support Form, I bet most people don't.

The people who post on VJ are only a small fraction of the people who are going thru the immigration process everyday there are alot more being processed and approved without the aid and assitant of VJ. Those who post here needs to understand that VJ is a FREE service being offered by those who have gone through the process and fellow VJ's want to give something back to those who are now going thru it.

"Maybe I should mock your use of irrelevant punctuation marks to prove my point?" This is what started the discussion in the first place,(rudeness) therefore if this makes you feel like the bigger person go ahead and make your point. P.S. Since you took my comment and anyone elses comment as a personal attack against you, I think it's your problem,not mines.

The one piece of advice I would give to any USC is to understand what a hugh commitment this is for them.

One of the things that everyone needs to understand, Rules changes everyday, that's why is is important that the guidelines are read.

I have gone thru the process and I am truly comfortable with my end result and my understanding of the process. Also I am aware that the information that I have supplied to Home Land Security will follow us until he becomes a citizen of the US so yes both of us have better been involved in this process.

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

Thanks mox and sara. I lived in a small town full of those kind of people for 10 long years. My skin is pretty thick. But I admit I was a little shocked to see our VJ stories being mocked that way. We come here for support. I don't think of it confidential information by any means, but maybe just things that are near and dear to us.

I DID NOT and WILL NOT join that forum. If I can report it without joining... now there is a thought!

Thanks again!

i've seen those posts you speak of, and they were quite harsh and unnecessary.

[ScottThuy 140]

A lot of the "perception" can be attributed to the impersonal nature of the Internet -- there's no chance to evaluate body language, tone of voice, etc. If I read a post that initially strikes me as abrasive, I'll read it again, pretending that the writer has a brotherly/avuncular/buddy-like arm around the person whom he's addressing, to see if the tone of the message changes for me. If it does, I'll extend the benefit of the doubt.

Regarding the issue of "advice from members" versus "paying for lawyers," and that some members here may be perceived as arrogant or "God's gift," how recently have we considered that many LAWYERS think of themselves as "God's gift" -- and their clients are paying high fees to put up with that stuff? In comparison, occasional "arrogance" on VJ perhaps becomes a little more palatable.

Some VJ posters may need to be gently coaxed/counseled, and some react only when they're kicked in the tail. It's challenging for ANY of us to know who's who, especially from someone's first post. Most members here are likely quite tolerant, except when their sensibilities are offended (see earlier messages from others in this thread). For me, someone's being blindsided by life is one thing; someone's making his bed and then objecting to lying in it is quite another. Actions have consequences.

And, occasionally we'll get a man-child who goes crying to mommy every time he's "offended," either on his own behalf or (often worse) on someone else's. These members are thankfully few & far between. If you can't stand up for yourself or can't defend your expressed opinion, then refrain from opining until you CAN do those things.

I'm enjoying this thread because of so many in-depth comments from thoughtful, literate posters, prominent among whom (as always) are sachinky, mox, & JohnnyQuest, si man.

There was an Atty on here for quite some time that got attacked and then outed himself as an Atty only to have to leave VJ to avoid giving advice as an Atty and not just a well informed VJer... Its a shame when some here feel they are never wrong and must always 1 up everyone...

I dont consider myself a manchild when I report someone for a TOS baiting post or a personal attack on me.. it has happened and rather than go at it in the forums... its easier and better for everyone that the Mod address it... OT is one thing but the regionals and other areas dont need attacks or attitudes... JMHO

[sachinky 465]

Honestly, I didn't take anything personally. I was just making a point regarding a certain "attitude of VJ posters" (which IS the offical title of this thread--I'm sure we can extend the topic beyond a certain "rudeness/crabbiness" that was initially discussed) that comes up often -- "Why isn't the USC petitioner here asking these questions?" Yes, I find this incredibly condescending and this does tend to annoy me greatly.

Then you pulled a sentence from my post to presumably demonstrate my lack of English language writing skills -- "If your command of the english language is okay, then I don't think the statement(I know the general attitude here on VJ is that the USC petitioner should do everything including the filling up the forms, paying the bills, organizing the information) was being directed to anyone who has an understanding of the english language." So I felt obliged to point out your unnecessary use of punctuation marks. Call me petty, if you will. Being a USC doesn't automatically mean that you speak or write flawless English. (Trust me, after spending four years in a US college, I can attest to that personally.)

Of course, the USC MUST read/understand the entire visa process and siging the I-864 without actually understanding the commitment involved is foolhardy. But I also put the onus on the beneficiary to learn as much as they can regarding the process as it is their life/future too. Both parties bear equal responsibility in understanding and executing this process, IMO. I didn't expect my husband to fill out the DS-230 or G-325A. He did his part--the I-130, the I-864, got his tax transcripts and the AOS package ready, etc. He paid the initial petition fee and the AOS fee and I paid the IV bill. This process is important to both of us and we're both invested in it. To assume that if the USC spouse isn't the one posting on VJ or isn't asking questions then it must automatically mean that he/she doesn't care/isn't invested is quite unfair.

Okay, I'm done.

Edited March 22, 2010 by sachinky

[VanessaTony 3,567]

Unless being a USC automatically means one has superlative English language skills or special form-filling talents, your point is moot. Maybe I should mock your use of irrelevant punctuation marks to prove my point?

I'm not knocking anyone who needs help--but I'm tired of being told indirectly that my husband doesn't care enough or isn't invested in the process -- otherwise he'd be here asking the questions.

I've found some USC's who's grasp of English isn't the best and who have been mistaken for the foreign beneficiary as well... just out of interest.

I personally am the "foreign one" but obviously from an English speaking country. I haven't ever taken the "why isn't the USC here?" personally, at all, at any stage because I do realise that they're often referring to the fact the qn either indicates they don't speak/understand English well, or the post tends to make little to no sense.

Oh, also, I am the one that does the paperwork for this. My husband is involved to a point. He knows roughly what's going on. He knows how serious the I-864 is, he came to my medical appointment, and intends to come to my biometrics (even though I told him he's not needed) but paperwork is a big part of my line of work so I'm used to it and I prefer being in control of it. I have my folder of info. He knows where the info is if he wants it, but he knows I have it all under control. And you know.. I think it shows a lot of trust in the relationship if the foreigner is the one doing the paperwork. I think it shows that he knows you wouldn't do anything "wrong" or "dodgy". I'm not saying that anyone who gets more help is less trusted, but I just don't see the foreigner doing it as a bad thing. I ONLY see it as a bad thing if the person (USC or foreigner) doesn't speak English well.. it's then that I think they need a lawyer, or an English speaking friend to help them out because it doesn't matter how many questions they ask, I'm always worried there's one or two very important questions they haven't asked because they think they understand it and in reality they're very very wrong.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

Whichever one of the couple is the best at paperwork should be doing the paperwork?

Edited March 22, 2010 by JohnnyQuest

[trailmix 77]

Sure it's a free board and sure it can be annoying to repeat the answers to the same questions over and over again - everyone knows that.

Basically, if we didn't have people joining this forum and asking those questions - VJ would be a pretty slow board. Of course we could all sit around and write concise guides and flow charts and 98% of the questions could be answered with them and we could just provide traffic direction - fun.

This board gains new members when they sign up and maybe ask an old question or two, they start to get a feel for it, from those that choose to help them and then many go on to become really helpful members.

One of my first questions here, perhaps even my first, was about the I-864. I got a reply from Pushbrk, he told me to read the instructions - which I did. Great piece of advice, really rude approach to a very new poster. Sure i've mentioned it to him, and the handful of other rude people on this board, i've seen others do it too - makes zero difference - but I don't care anymore.

I had an email this morning from someone who has been on VJ quite a while - great poster, great advice, always kind and welcoming to new people. She has decided not to post here anymore - had enough of the rude people who wander in to the Canada forum just trying to cause trouble, can't say I blame her.

She also has many years of experience in one of the specialty areas that are covered on VJ - now that experience has been lost to this board. It's too bad.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

I had an email this morning from someone who has been on VJ quite a while - great poster, great advice, always kind and welcoming to new people. She has decided not to post here anymore - had enough of the rude people who wander in to the Canada forum just trying to cause trouble, can't say I blame her.

She also has many years of experience in one of the specialty areas that are covered on VJ - now that experience has been lost to this board. It's too bad.

Well sadly enough, she's not the first and won't be the last.

[Scott and Mhay 57]

I remember a post I made when i first joined trying to help...I did give correct advice...talk to a travel agent...but I was blown up and picked on. I almost left the forum but I did contact a mod and they convinced me to stay.

the same stuff happens on all types of forums. I am an admin on a diesel forum and we deal with trolls that just want to cause problems. We answer the same questions over and over again. sometimes i just read and shake my head. I know I see the same type of stuff here too. We all have a choice whether to reply or not...I know sometimes I type a reply and never post. It feels good sometimes tp just put your thoughts down.

If a reply is that harsh, it can be reported for review by the staff.

[I'm Gone 60]

i've seen those posts you speak of, and they were quite harsh and unnecessary.

Charles, before you became one of them did you get suspended for anything you posted?

[mox 298]

I remember a post I made when i first joined trying to help...I did give correct advice...talk to a travel agent...but I was blown up and picked on. I almost left the forum but I did contact a mod and they convinced me to stay.

I haven't seen the post in question, so I can only respond to this in the general sense. You say you posted advice when you first joined, and in my experience that's almost always a bad idea. Not because you will be picked on, but because you will most likely be wrong. I see it all the time. New member is excited to be a part of the community and wants to help. They see a question they KNOW the answer to, but because of their inexperience, they're actually completely wrong. Or they're a little bit wrong. Or they're right, they get positive feedback from others, and it emboldens them to think they know more than they do, so they start handing advice out like it's free candy. And then they can't figure out why everybody is being so mean to them over such a trivial detail as being slightly wrong.

This may not have been your case, but it could explain why you were "picked on."

The best advise I have for a new member is to ask questions. Not necessarily lots of questions, but ask pertinent questions. And READ READ READ READ READ. Read until your eyes bleed. And only after you REALLY understand the process should you venture out into the "offering advice" waters. Your one little mistake may not be so bad in the big scheme of things, so it may seem unfair for people to jump right in the middle of your ####### for it. But when 10, 20, 30 or more new members are out there slinging around advice with "little" errors, it adds up, and it makes the waters murky. And so when people come across yet another post that, for example, confuses the requirements for primary and secondary evidence, and have to correct it for the umpteenth time, you can kinda see why people get grumpy.

Edited March 22, 2010 by mox

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

I was one of those old-timers who left -- I spent six months away from VJ because I was so fed up with the level of invective, vitriol and condescension being thrown about in the upper forums. I don't really know why I came back, but back I am. In general, I try to be minimally polite when I say "read the guides, f*cktard." You'll find most of my posts are helpful and welcoming as much as possible.* I don't get my rocks off by assuming that by belittling people is going to make me VJ Royalty. (Hell, I'm hardly even near the gates of the palace. I'm too busy in the pub.) I too don't agree with spoonfeeding, but if one person says "start with the guides," why should I pile on and repeat it?

I don't know, it's SUCH an old refrain that VJ ain't what it used to be, that no one thinks for themselves anymore, etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseam. But really? The level of bare-faced aggression in response to ignorance is staggering.

(*I will except the vibrator sh*tstorm of 2009, but how could anyone resist that one?)

**Edited to insert a missing parenthesis.

Edited March 23, 2010 by elmcitymaven

[I'm Gone 60]

He should be banned. I've been on this site a very long time and no longer help in the upper forums as I've more or less forgotten most of what I used to know, but I did help once upon a time and I did get help once upon a time. No one in my memory was ever that rude. That level of condescension should simply not be acceptable no matter how smart one is perceived to be.

We should all be as nice as you. I found this nugget of yours from today.

"Dumbass, that's why we voted for him. In fact, this isn't socialist enough. He screwed us too but we'll take it. There will be opportunity to socialize it even more "

[TBoneTX 45,289]

I dont consider myself a manchild when I report someone for a TOS baiting post or a personal attack on me.

Oh, si man -- TOS violations, baiting, & personal attacks are definitely report-worthy, & I've reported some myself. It's the "that advice is so straightforward that it hurts my (or someone else's) widdle feelings" that I object to, si man.

Point: Despite pushbrk's reputation (deserved or not) for harshness, has anyone noticed the changed tone as of the new year? Take a look for a while, starting with existing posts & continuing with new ones.

Point: The most toxic VJ member that I can think of during my time here, RebeccaJo, is no longer. Thanks be for that, si man.

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

Charles, before you became one of them did you get suspended for anything you posted?

let's just say i know the tos from a real personal perspective.