2010 US Census Report

[Peikko 1,575]

I'm not asking for a class. A couple sentences would suffice. But your answer is clear. In practice, the application of socialism has never led to a government that is meaningfully different than a fascist government.

You have got to be kidding me? Really, is that your conclusion?

[peejay 327]

I'm shocked! And to think that so many believed that GWB and crew were the Nazis. Who knew this current crew would turn out to nationalize industries and socialize medicine. Does that make them National Socialists? Sieg Heil indeed!

Some people should be made to study political ideology. Socialism and fascism are miles apart. Is it the fact that the Nazis called themselves National Socialists that confuses them?

Gee Cleo. Maybe you should acquire the ability to discern when people make tongue and cheek attempts at satire and when they are really making a serious statement. The little winking guy at the end of the post is meant to be a subtle hint of intent.

[Leafgal 3]

Really can't believe that Obama is even brought into the discussion - I would be interested if those who don't want to fill it out are American's?

I mean you don't think all the information they requested on the form isn't out there anyways.

I have nothing to hide so I filled ours out, but then again I carry my green card too.

[peejay 327]

Really can't believe that Obama is even brought into the discussion - I would be interested if those who don't want to fill it out are American's?

I mean you don't think all the information they requested on the form isn't out there anyways.

I have nothing to hide so I filled ours out, but then again I carry my green card too.

You must be really naive if you think the census is not political. Ever heard of gerrymandering? Ever heard of racial gerrymandering?

All over Houston the billboards tout participation in the census for such mundane purposes such as more highway funds and public works infrastructure. So why do they need detailed information about race? Why is most of the 2010 census all about race? Why are so many political districts drawn along racial lines?

Racial identity politics is obviously alive, well, and flourishing in America. Contrary to what people want to believe.

[Niels Bohr 72]

Racial profiling is alive because conservatives like to blame things on race.

[scandal 951]

Socialism: a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Fascism: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

In theory they are different although not really miles apart. It is sometimes argued that ultra-left wing politics tends towards socialism and ultra-right wing politics tends towards fascism. However, the fact that these systems are supposedly at opposite ends of the political spectrum clouds the reality that they contain many common elements.

Socialism simply calls for the general ownership of means of production and other assets. In the real world, this requires some person or group of people ("the government") to direct and control the use of these assets. The exact implementation of this government is varied and thus socialism splits into many subsets. Fascism goes farther in many aspects but shares the general basis that the government owns and controls the means of production and distribution (the only necessary characteristic of socialism). Thus, it could be argued that fascism is a subset of socialism.

Although, in socialism the assets could be controlled democratically in theory, in practice they never have been. Some modern countries have implemented pseudo-socialist governments where individuals still own the means of production but that production is taxed to pay for a large array of social services. But this really isn't theoretical socialism.

I think the confusion stems from the fact that every time in history that the government has directly owned most of the economy, the result has been totalitarianism. That is, in practice, there has not been a lot of difference between socialism and fascism. Stalin and Hitler were two sides of the same coin. One may have been all the way to the right, the other all the way to the left, but the spectrum seems to have come full circle.

I realize that many will say that Stalin wasn't really a socialist. While I believe he was, my point is that there are no real world examples of a government that owned the means of production and distribution but did not encroach on basic freedoms in much the same way as fascism.

On a side note, I believe the modern American political spectrum runs between Socialism and Anarchy as the ultra-left and ultra-right endpoints, respectively. Fascism, or any real tendency towards it, is in not really part of the American right wing (or any major part of American politics), but rather, at most, a splinter off the basic political spectrum heading in an orthogonal direction.

Very well stated. I agree with everything you've written, up until the last paragraph (your "side note").

I certainly agree that, whether intentional or not, every society that's attempted to institute a Marxist government through revolution has wound up with totalitarian government. That includes the Soviet Union, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Castro's Cuba, ... Marx did argue that only through revolution would the working class take control of the means of production. What he failed to foresee is that revolution requires revolutionaries: men with power to influence their co-revolutionaries and ambition and organizational skills. Those very assets are the things which lead them to hold onto power and refuse to relinquish it. One of the true marvels of the American Revolution is that its leaders were able to form a democratic and republican form of government, ruled by law, with a binding Constitution that was supreme to the wills of any one man or branch of government. Just what were the qualities that set Washington apart from Robispierre, Lenin, and Mao, so that he willingly surrendered public office to retire to Mount Vernon, while those other revolutionaries instituted tyranny in their homelands? I'm not sure I know, but I'm glad America had Washington, and not them.

As to your last paragraph: I don't think the American left runs to revolutionary Socialism. The American left simply does not aspire to control the means of production in this country. Yes, I know, it's fashionable among the right to believe that Obama wants to nationalize AIG and GM and the banks through the bailouts. But really, no serious student of American government or economics believes that any Administration in American history (since at least Andrew Jackson, at any rate) has wanted to do away entirely with the free enterprise model of American capitalism. (One might argue that this is what William Jennings Bryan would have done if elected, but of course he was never elected). What the Left does want to do, and I broadly agree with this, is to use government as a force of wealth redistribution. That is - to use the power of taxation to "skim" some off the top of the productivity of private industry, for the betterment of all. The theory goes that by investing wisely in infrastructure and social betterment (roads, schools, hospitals, etc.) the society is enriched and business can operate more efficiently, generating even greater wealth in a virtuous circle. That's a very different thing than nationalizing private industry itself.

Anyway, once again, great post.

[Leafgal 3]

You must be really naive if you think the census is not political. Ever heard of gerrymandering? Ever heard of racial gerrymandering?

All over Houston the billboards tout participation in the census for such mundane purposes such as more highway funds and public works infrastructure. So why do they need detailed information about race? Why is most of the 2010 census all about race? Why are so many political districts drawn along racial lines?

Racial identity politics is obviously alive, well, and flourishing in America. Contrary to what people want to believe.

Wow PJ you really are paranoid BIG Brother is watching, not to mention keeping the dream alive that everything is about politics and race. Did you see the last census, EXACT same questions as this one so not sure about those Houston billboards, I am guessing it is the fear mongering used to make everyone do what they want, just like Stepford Wifes....

Edited March 20, 2010 by Leafgal

[Ban Hammer 13,332]

Racial profiling is alive because conservatives like to blame things on race.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

I can't believe that some of you are so paranoid about filling out the census form. It's statistics, some used for federal funds, others for the demographic makeup for the country. What's the big deal?

[peejay 327]

Wow PJ you really are paranoid BIG Brother is watching, not to mention keeping the dream alive that everything is about politics and race. Did you see the last census, EXACT same questions as this one so not sure about those Houston billboards, I am guessing it is the fear mongering used to make everyone do what they want, just like Stepford Wifes....

It has nothing to do with paranoia or Big Brother and a lot to do with reality. I would think that citizenship would be more important in determining political representation, but that question doesn't even appear on the census. The Dems are just obsessed with race as usual while claiming it shouldn't matter anymore.

I could care less what the politicians decided for last census or for the census of 1790. That was then and this is now. This is the 21st century. Or should we still be asking how many slaves you own?

[Niels Bohr 72]

Seems like the only ones who have a problem with race is the right wing groups. Others seem fine.

And, I'd like to add that the left is happy to provide ESL classes to help native Spainish speakers. Whereas, the right is locked on English as the language used in the work place. And, adding to that the right wing group don't even give people a chance to learn English. Talking about double standard.

It has nothing to do with paranoia or Big Brother and a lot to do with reality. I would think that citizenship would be more important in determining political representation, but that question doesn't even appear on the census. The Dems are just obsessed with race as usual while claiming it shouldn't matter anymore.

I could care less what the politicians decided for last census or for the census of 1790. That was then and this is now. This is the 21st century. Or should we still be asking how many slaves you own?

Edited March 20, 2010 by Niels Bohr

[mawilson 2,133]

I have nothing to hide so I filled ours out, but then again I carry my green card too.

Is that so? Feel free to post your personal details, social security number, credit cards and bank accounts.

[scandal 951]

Is that so? Feel free to post your personal details, social security number, credit cards and bank accounts.

Remind her not to forget the PIN code for her ATM card, too....

[TBoneTX 45,266]

I can't believe that some of you are so paranoid about filling out the census form. It's statistics, some used for federal funds, others for the demographic makeup for the country. What's the big deal?

(1) Read Art. I, Sec. 2 of the U.S. Constitution carefully & interpret it literally.

(2) In 1941, the supposedly "confidential" census data was used specifically to identify and forcibly isolate Japanese-Americans.

Edited March 20, 2010 by TBoneTX

[spookyturtle 9,465]

(1) Read Art. I, Sec. 2 of the U.S. Constitution carefully & interpret it literally.

(2) In 1941, the supposedly "confidential" census data was used specifically to identify and forcibly isolate Japanese-Americans.

Do you think they could be planning to round up all the blacks and hispanics?