Coffee and Guns

[Obama 2012 1,714]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...ttoWhatsNewsTop

Starbucks Corp. and some other chain stores in the U.S. are finding themselves caught in the middle of a firearms debate, as gun-control advocates go up against a burgeoning campaign by gun owners to carry holstered pistols in public places.

The "open carry" movement, in which gun owners carry unconcealed handguns as they go about their everyday business, is loosely organized around the country but has been gaining traction in recent months. Gun-control advocates have been pushing to quash the movement, including by petitioning the Starbucks coffee chain to ban guns on its premises.

Businesses have the final say on their property. But the ones that don't opt to ban guns—such as Starbucks—have become parade grounds of sorts for open-carry advocates.

Starbucks on Wednesday, while bemoaning being thrust into the debate, defended its long-standing policy of complying with state open-carry weapons laws, in part by stating that its baristas, or "partners," could be harmed if the stores were to ban guns. The chain said that in the 43 states where open carry is legal, it has about 4,970 company-operated stores.

The company added: "The political, policy and legal debates around these issues belong in the legislatures and courts, not in our stores."

In 29 states, it's legal to openly carry a loaded handgun, without any form of government permission. Another 13 allow an unconcealed loaded handgun with a carry permit, according to opencarry.org, which is a loosely organized Web forum for the movement.

In California, where it's legal to carry a gun openly without a license in most places as long as it's unloaded, growing numbers of armed people have been turning up at Starbucks, restaurants, and retailers, with handguns holstered to their belts to protest what they contend are unfair limits on permits to carry a concealed weapon.

The open-carry movement began spreading in 2004 after some pro-gun advocates in Virginia began researching state laws and discovered that many states don't have laws to prevent unconcealed carry of handguns.

"The concealed carry movement has been successful but open carry is coming up," in popularity, said Mike Stollenwerk, a retired Army lieutenant colonel and co-founder of the opencarry.org site.

"I feel other people have the right to carry firearms into a business if it's okay with the business," said William Moore, a carpenter from Lynwood, Wash., and an open-carry advocate who says he doesn't carry firearms into Starbucks coffee shops.

Supporters are spreading in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Louisiana, and other areas. Some are making lists of "OC-friendly" locales, and encouraging boycotts of businesses with no-weapons signs. Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Home Depot Inc., Best Buy Co. and Barnes & Noble Inc., are designated as "open-carry" friendly in some online forums or say they abide by existing laws. "Our practice is to comply with local and state laws," said Best Buy spokeswoman Sue Busch Nehring.

Open-carry proponents are also taking advantage of some momentum in state legislatures to expand gun rights, although most new and pending measures don't specifically address unconcealed handguns.

Open carry hasn't been part of the official focus of the pro-gun lobbying group, the National Rifle Association, which has 4 million members.

In the past 20 years, the NRA has focused on expanding the ability of U.S. gun owners to carry a handgun in a concealed manner.

Today, 38 states have a "shall issue" permit process. Two states don't require a license to conceal carry. Eight states have "may issue" concealed carry laws, meaning permits will be given with the discretion of a local politician or police officer.

"We support the self-defense rights of law-abiding Americans in accordance with local, state and federal laws," says Andrew Arulanandam, an NRA spokesman, who declined further comment on open-carry activity.

Some chains have banned guns from their restaurants, even in open-carry states, because of the impact it could have on non-gun-carrying customers.

"We are concerned that the open display of firearms would be particularly disturbing to children and their parents," said a spokesperson for the California Pizza Kitchen restaurant chain.

A Peet's Coffee & Tea spokesperson said that while the firm "respects and values all individuals' rights...our policy is not to allow customers carrying firearms in our stores or on our outdoor seating premises unless they are uniformed or identified law enforcement officers."

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, which partnered with Credo Action, an activist group that uses mobile phones to effect social change, says it has collected more than 28,000 signatures on a petition to get Starbucks to change its policy.

Allowing customers who are armed with unconcealed guns on the premises "can't be good for business—it galvanizes people, and some of them won't patronize Starbucks after this," said Joshua Horwitz, executive director of the Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence, a gun-control organization in Washington, D.C.

Indeed, not all baristas agree that the Starbucks policy protects them. "I think the policy shows complete disregard for the safety and sentiments of their workers. The only thing worse than a yuppie upset with how their frappuccino turned out is a yuppie with a gun who's unhappy with how their frappuccino turned out," says Erik Forman, a Starbucks barista and union member in Minneapolis.

The IWW Starbucks Workers Union on Wednesday issued a statement, saying "We appreciate the vigorous debate taking place by principled individuals on both sides of this issue. However, to date we are not aware of any efforts by Starbucks to widely engage its workers who are directly affected by open-carry gun laws. We believe an appropriate solution cannot be reached without doing so."

[sly_wolf 199]

What is it with people that need to pack a weapon ..... backward uneducated morons.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

What is it with people that need to pack a weapon ..... backward uneducated morons.

Not necessarily.

In some neighborhoods, you're probably better off carrying a gun than not...

Personally, I'm more of a fan of open-carry than I am concealed-carry. I'd much rather know/see that someone is carrying a gun, than it be a surprise.

[sly_wolf 199]

Not necessarily.

In some neighborhoods, you're probably better off carrying a gun than not...

Personally, I'm more of a fan of open-carry than I am concealed-carry. I'd much rather know/see that someone is carrying a gun, than it be a surprise.

Yes, and its unfortunate that society has gotten so dangerous that people feel that they need to carry a weapon. But also allowing free reign on carrying weapons is not the solution to the problem ... it just helps continue the problem.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Yes, and its unfortunate that society has gotten so dangerous that people feel that they need to carry a weapon. But also allowing free reign on carrying weapons is not the solution to the problem ... it just helps continue the problem.

People will always find ways to hurt one another regardless.

I'd rather have an armed citizenry than armed criminals only.

99% of people who own a gun will never need to use them or won't abuse them.

That 1% gets tossed into media circles as 'everyone' but generally speaking people are safe/proper with their guns.

[sly_wolf 199]

People will always find ways to hurt one another regardless.

I'd rather have an armed citizenry than armed criminals only.

99% of people who own a gun will never need to use them or won't abuse them.

That 1% gets tossed into media circles as 'everyone' but generally speaking people are safe/proper with their guns.

I would not go to any public gathering where I know people are packing heat. There are way too many angry people out there with no sense of responsibilty whatsoever.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

I would not go to any public gathering where I know people are packing heat. There are way too many angry people out there with no sense of responsibilty whatsoever.

this is why I'm more of a fan of open-carry. I'd rather know than not know when at certain events...

At least you KNOW not to piss those people off

[MADforMEGHAN 0]

Not necessarily.

In some neighborhoods, you're probably better off carrying a gun than not...

Personally, I'm more of a fan of open-carry than I am concealed-carry. I'd much rather know/see that someone is carrying a gun, than it be a surprise.

I agree I believe carrying an openly visible gun serves as a deterrent to anybody who wishes you harm and therefore drastically decreases the chance of having to point it at anybody. and for that reason I intend on carrying a gun in that manner (when legally able) as the job I will be taking involves working in potential dangerous/poor neighbourhoods with 1000's of dollars of expensive and steal able tools, and being confronted by people for variously undesirable reasons.

Many of the workers involved in the same job opt for this measure (and recomend it) as they are often involved in confrontations from unhappy ex-owners and neighbours of repossessed homes. I wish to be able to feel safe when trying to just do my job, I hope and pray that I never am in a situation in which presenting the weapon is necessary. But the simple fact is there are allot of desperate and troubled people out there that carry firearms WITH the willingness to cause harm to people. I would just hope that carrying an openly visible weapon is less likely to lead me into a situation where one is drawn on me.

[sly_wolf 199]

this is why I'm more of a fan of open-carry. I'd rather know than not know when at certain events...

At least you KNOW not to piss those people off

Perhaps, but I prefer not to associate with those. Like I have told my kids many times ... if you dont want trouble it helps to stay away from trouble.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What is it with people that need to pack a weapon ..... backward uneducated morons.

In restaurants too, no less

I wonder if those same people wear their guns when they go swimming, or in the shower after the gym. I mean... you just never know...

[sly_wolf 199]

In restaurants too, no less

I wonder if those same people wear their guns when they go swimming, or in the shower after the gym. I mean... you just never know...

Lol, not a pretty picture. Society sometimes just seems to be on a downhill slide and many seem to be ok with it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't know about it being on a downhill slide, but it's funny that people insist on being able to carry a gun anywhere they go (just in case).

Perhaps everyone should wear a bullet proof vest, when they're out an about. I mean - you have to be prepared, put an umbrella in your car in case it rains, also some lockpicks and an oxygen tank in case you find yourself handcuffed inside a bank vault.

Oh - and a parachute too, you never know when it will come in handy

And bring a towel too!

Edited March 4, 2010 by Gene Hunt

[Obama 2012 1,714]

I don't know about it being on a downhill slide, but it's funny that people insist on being able to carry a gun anywhere they go (just in case).

Perhaps everyone should wear a bullet proof vest, when they're out an about. I mean - you have to be prepared, put an umbrella in your car in case it rains, also some lockpicks and an oxygen tank in case you find yourself handcuffed inside a bank vault.

Oh - and a parachute too, you never know when it will come in handy

And bring a towel too!

Hey.... This logic works even for the biggest losers in the world who carry a 10 year-old condom in their wallet. 'just in case'

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It's probably the same people.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Why do law-abiding gun owners irritate these gun haters so much?