I married a woman, not a country

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I'm 23 and I'll tell you that if a FSU guy has his stuff together, he could have 3 girlfriends simultaneously at a young age. No reason to wait until he is 40. There is just that many more women who have there stuff together than men who have their stuff together. Again, I'm not saying there aren't men who have their stuff together. There are just twice as many women.

Seems that way. Actually, there are, officially, 116 women for every 100 men. Hardly "twice as many" and the odds for us old guys are better as the gap increases with age, At age 20 it is nearly 1 to 1. At age 65 it is about 7 women to one man, but that is because the men croak off at age 58 and the women live to age 79 (average)

The problem (if you call it that) is that alcoholism is so rampant that half the men take themselves off the market in favor of vodka. (I know...crazy) and the women really are not attracted to drunks (imagine that) so they increase the odds by default for an average guy who has a job and doesn't spend his whole life intoxicated (and die at age 58) It has also been explained to me, it is why most Ukrainian women prefer older men...if they are not drunks at age 40 or so, they are not likely to be in the future. "20 something" Ukrainian men are way too much of a wild card for a woman that is interested in her family future.

Another factor is the very strong desire and culture for women to get married and have families. While in the US maybe only 60% of the 20 something women are even looking for a husband an 22 year old unmarried Ukrainian woman is something of an oddity (less so now than a few years ago, but they are all definitely "on the market")

So at any age, the "real numbers" are skewed by the reality of culture and men's bad habits, much to our favor.

At that Ukraine still has the largest dicrepancie of men/women in any civilized country...that is true. Russia is close behind. It is still, largely the devastation of WW2 that causes this, it has taken several generations to get anywhere near back to normal.

[SMR 368]

Seems that way. Actually, there are, officially, 116 women for every 100 men. Hardly "twice as many" and the odds for us old guys are better as the gap increases with age, At age 20 it is nearly 1 to 1. At age 65 it is about 7 women to one man, but that is because the men croak off at age 58 and the women live to age 79 (average)

The problem (if you call it that) is that alcoholism is so rampant that half the men take themselves off the market in favor of vodka. (I know...crazy) and the women really are not attracted to drunks (imagine that) so they increase the odds by default for an average guy who has a job and doesn't spend his whole life intoxicated (and die at age 58) It has also been explained to me, it is why most Ukrainian women prefer older men...if they are not drunks at age 40 or so, they are not likely to be in the future. "20 something" Ukrainian men are way too much of a wild card for a woman that is interested in her family future.

Another factor is the very strong desire and culture for women to get married and have families. While in the US maybe only 60% of the 20 something women are even looking for a husband an 22 year old unmarried Ukrainian woman is something of an oddity (less so now than a few years ago, but they are all definitely "on the market")

So at any age, the "real numbers" are skewed by the reality of culture and men's bad habits, much to our favor.

At that Ukraine still has the largest dicrepancie of men/women in any civilized country...that is true. Russia is close behind. It is still, largely the devastation of WW2 that causes this, it has taken several generations to get anywhere near back to normal.

We could go on for a while about the societal problems in Russia and Ukraine. I agree with what you are saying here. I was talking about a guy who has his stuff together, meaning he has a job and doesn't drink. That's why it's 2 to 1, as you pointed out.

However, I don't think WW2 can be directly blamed for the shortage of men. After all, men who died in WW2 would be 80+ now anyways. The problem is, too many men grew up without fathers to show them how to be men. In any community where boys grow up without fathers, there is a large amount of delinquency in the up and coming generation, particularly among young men.

[eekee 182]

VV, your post about the Dominican Republic reveals more about your relationship than any spectacular Russian Orthodox wedding in Russia ever could.

"Money back guarantee"? These are women, not appliances from Sears.

Lastly, you may have married a woman, but she spent 20, 30, 40 years in another country, and unless you erase her memory, these will affect her and how she acts in daily life. Cross-cultural relationships are challenging. Both sides have to understand the other.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

SMR...

His argument makes NO sense. ALL of our wives got a green card AFTER they married us. His wife, my wife, your wife. NO ONE got a green card before marriage. We all had equal opportunity to ruin our wives lives (and still do). Trying to split hairs over where the couple was standing when the vows were taken is BS. He married his wife in Russia, then abandoned her and FORCED to live there while she waited for her green card. Too bad for her if he took many months (or years) to file a petition. She was married and stuck with having to get a divorce if he didn't do as he said. I will bet you $100 she waited LONGER after the marriage for her green card than my wife did. My wife had her green card in her hand 3 months and 4 days after she said "I do". How long did VV's wife wait after the wedding?

VV, what is the answer?

My wife could have gotten back on the plane and left when she arrived. No divorce necessary. SHE could have tried things out and changed her mind. She could have waited 90 days, but we didn't. The "guarantee" was available to both of us. To suggest my wife could NOT have gotten back on the plane and returned all on her own is an insult. maybe VV's wife is so dependent as to be unable to do so, my wife is not. She has never been without enough CASH to buy multiple plane tickets back to Ukraine at any time. She could drive her own car to JFK today and get on the next plane to Kiev, pay cash from what she has stashed around the house and she would be winging her way back before I noticed she was gone. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous...or perhaps a reflection of how VV restrains his wife. Mine is not restrained in any way.

On the other hand, after abandoning his wife in Russia (what kind of MAN does that?) he then FORCED her to come to a country she had never seen and FORCED her to live with him, if she didn't like it, she would have to get a divorce

If I want to paint a negative picture of the CR-1 visa, I certainly can. Why would I do that? I presume that VV and his wife are adults and make decisions as adults. They made a decision of what was best for them. We made a decision of what was best for us. What the #### is the problem with that??????

If she wants to do that, tell her to buy a roundtrip ticket instead and try to pay with a Credit Card (oh! I forgot you don't believe in Credit Cards). Buying a one way ticket with Cash will flag her as a terrorist. May not be able to fly.

[eekee 182]

I don't really think that's something Alla needs to worry about. I may not agree with Gary on many issues, but I think there are very few women in this world who have less incentive to leave her husband than she does.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

Oh, word games.

OK...you put the burden of travel for marriage on them and it took place in a non Russian environment unless you found an Orthodox Church. I see how powerful you all feel about Russian culture and tradition...except when it comes down to who has to give up their traditions for marriage. You denied them their local Russian marriage traditions. Probably to test drive her before you commit. How admirable. How heroic.

My wife married in the Russian way and her family was there. I think this speaks to how far I was willing to go to marry her. No need for the 90 day test drive.

Actually, VV, it was MY WIFE who wanted to Test-Drive me before she married me and committed herself to this little thing called family. We married after 60 days and she was still hesitant to do it so soon. Her family and friends in Russia are too important to her and she was not sure whether she could change all that for just me.

If she had married me in Russia instead without really knowing what was entailed in moving alone to a foreign country her choices would have been limited.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

We could go on for a while about the societal problems in Russia and Ukraine. I agree with what you are saying here. I was talking about a guy who has his stuff together, meaning he has a job and doesn't drink. That's why it's 2 to 1, as you pointed out.

However, I don't think WW2 can be directly blamed for the shortage of men. After all, men who died in WW2 would be 80+ now anyways. The problem is, too many men grew up without fathers to show them how to be men. In any community where boys grow up without fathers, there is a large amount of delinquency in the up and coming generation, particularly among young men.

Actually, yes, it is largely because of WW2 which eliminated such a high percentage of men in Ukraine, nearly 50% of all men. After the war the women of course, had babies. But half of those were girls. You see? If there are 100 men and 200 women, and 200 women get pregnant by the 100 men (and YES, this happened, it was the woman's "duty" to repopulate the country by getting pregnant) the 200 women would have 100 girls and 100 boys. There are now, after 1 generation, and 20 + years...200 men and 300 women, of age to reproduce...the next generation makes it 450 women and 350 men, but by now we are already up to the years 1975-80. I order to come to the current discrepancy it takes another 40 years, and that is IF there is NO infant mortality, which there is, and for some reason affects baby boys more than baby girls. A woman, such as my MIL, who had ONE child, and it was a girl, did absolutely nothing to change the demographics. Alla will only "replace" her mother as a woman skewing the numbers, except that she married a foreigner and left the country, therby evening the odds a bit more. Since the end of the SU many men have left for more lucrative jobs in western Europe, Ukrainians are like the "Mexicans" of Europe and make up a large percentage of illegal immigrants within Europe.

yes, the lack of fatherly guidance is a factor in drinking problems. So is a history of Communism that stifled anyone having a feeling of getting ahead or getting anywhere and created the atmosphere of the government being the "father" We see the same thing in ghettos here, really just small communist communities within the USA no different than Soviet Ukraine. The apartment houses even look the same. The women always had the responsibility to raise children, regardless of the poltical climate, so they always had a little more feeling of destiny and purpose than men who pretended to work while the government pretended to pay them.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

If she wants to do that, tell her to buy a roundtrip ticket instead and try to pay with a Credit Card (oh! I forgot you don't believe in Credit Cards). Buying a one way ticket with Cash will flag her as a terrorist. May not be able to fly.

Alla, like a lot of Ukrainians, prefers cash. Makes me a bit nervous. I hate credit cards. We have two but never use them. But I use a debit card exclusively and almost never use cash. Alla has a debit card also. Alla could buy a ticket by a debit card today and drop her cash in the night deposit...or just keep the cash. No matter. The point is, there is no financial reason she needs to be here right now. She has not only the wherewithall to leave, the car to do it in (and she could take the van and leave the sports car behind, she has keys for both) and a paid for and furnished flat in Donetsk to go to.

I understand the point you make...my point is she can bug out anytime she wants and there would be no way for me to stop her and I prefer it that way. She isn't "mine" if I have to keep her on a leash. There is no record of her being married in Ukraine. she could "divorce" me by simply walking out. Seems all the advantage is on her side.

[payxibka 10,045]

Actually, yes, it is largely because of WW2 which eliminated such a high percentage of men in Ukraine, nearly 50% of all men. After the war the women of course, had babies. But half of those were girls. You see? If there are 100 men and 200 women, and 200 women get pregnant by the 100 men (and YES, this happened, it was the woman's "duty" to repopulate the country by getting pregnant) the 200 women would have 100 girls and 100 boys. There are now, after 1 generation, and 20 + years...200 men and 300 women, of age to reproduce...the next generation makes it 450 women and 350 men, but by now we are already up to the years 1975-80. I order to come to the current discrepancy it takes another 40 years, and that is IF there is NO infant mortality, which there is, and for some reason affects baby boys more than baby girls. A woman, such as my MIL, who had ONE child, and it was a girl, did absolutely nothing to change the demographics. Alla will only "replace" her mother as a woman skewing the numbers, except that she married a foreigner and left the country, therby evening the odds a bit more. Since the end of the SU many men have left for more lucrative jobs in western Europe, Ukrainians are like the "Mexicans" of Europe and make up a large percentage of illegal immigrants within Europe.

yes, the lack of fatherly guidance is a factor in drinking problems. So is a history of Communism that stifled anyone having a feeling of getting ahead or getting anywhere and created the atmosphere of the government being the "father" We see the same thing in ghettos here, really just small communist communities within the USA no different than Soviet Ukraine. The apartment houses even look the same. The women always had the responsibility to raise children, regardless of the poltical climate, so they always had a little more feeling of destiny and purpose than men who pretended to work while the government pretended to pay them.

Your numbers are flawed. First of all, it has been 65 years since WW2 and all (or substantially all) of those original child bearing women that first repopulated the country are now gone, therefore your original 200 cannot be counted in the 450 (really makes the number 250). It won't take another 2 generations to "repair" this.

You would have been better off blaming Afghanistan rather than WW2

[Brad and Vika 129]

In reality, divorcing or annulling the marriage is not much more complicated than refusing to marry after a short time. Yeah, your wife may have had more of a basis to stay had you divorced her, but I think I don't speak for only my self when I say that my wife wasn't after the green card. She gave up a lot to come here; you are right. But without me, she really wouldn't have come and if I were to die, she would probably return to Russia, in spite of the fact that she could legally stay.

I agree with this, although even during the past year my wife's feelings about Ukraine have changed a bit. Still lots of nostalgia, but she is actuallt starting to blend - to the point where she probably would stay regardless. She would probably never have had a desire to see America again in the first place except for me.

Also, I hear the same sort of story about how difficult it was to find a Ukrainian man to settle down with there. Vika acknowledges that they are there, but few and far between. I find it similar to the situation many of us had in America, where there are plenty (imo) of decent women, but those get and stay married/committed. Men and women both recognize the quality of a member of the opposite sex. We all have seen the feeding frenzy around a woman that was about to divorce - if she was perceived to be "awesome". Ring on finger before the ink on the divorce is dry Apparently the situation is reversed in Ukraine, and women will compete for a decent, sober sailor (that they will only see for half the year) rather than drunk, womanizing businessguy that lives at the city center.

[SMR 368]

Your numbers are flawed. First of all, it has been 65 years since WW2 and all (or substantially all) of those original child bearing women that first repopulated the country are now gone, therefore your original 200 cannot be counted in the 450 (really makes the number 250). It won't take another 2 generations to "repair" this.

You would have been better off blaming Afghanistan rather than WW2

Exactly. When talking about discrepancies in the number of people of marriageable age, I am talking about people under 60, as a maximum. None of them died in WW2. Regardless of how many people were born after WW2, one would expect them to be of an equal gender distribution. These are the people we are talking about.

All I'm trying to say is that the current gender imbalance, and even more pronounced gender imbalance when not counting people who don't have their stuff together, cannot be directly related to WW2, except in the 80+ category. On the other hand, I think there is a cause and effect relationship when considering the cultural effects on the next generation when a society has a huge segment of the male population wiped out.

Infant mortality is really beside the point here, since it is present everywhere.

[mox 298]

Wow, this thread sure is dead.

The great thing about visaveteran's "abandonment/90 day warranty" argument is that he could really make it work any way he wants:

If he filed CR1 and you filed K1, "you can easily abandon your woman before ever having to marry her, whereas I had to put my money where my mouth was and marry her in her barbaric country." (the current argument)

If he filed K1 and you filed CR1, "you abandoned your poor wife to a barbaric culture, giving her no guarantees that you would actually ever go through with the CR1, whereas I put my money where my mouth was by bringing her to the US and marrying her within 90 days."

If he and you both filed K1, "I married my wife a week before you married your wife, so you forced your wife to go through an entire extra week of wondering if you would send her home."

If he and you both filed CR1, "you have provided no evidence that you even have a wife, so I'm better than you."

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I don't really think that's something Alla needs to worry about. I may not agree with Gary on many issues, but I think there are very few women in this world who have less incentive to leave her husband than she does.

Thanks Eekee, but can you believe, Alla doesn't always agree with me either.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Wow, this thread sure is dead.

The great thing about visaveteran's "abandonment/90 day warranty" argument is that he could really make it work any way he wants:

If he filed CR1 and you filed K1, "you can easily abandon your woman before ever having to marry her, whereas I had to put my money where my mouth was and marry her in her barbaric country." (the current argument)

If he filed K1 and you filed CR1, "you abandoned your poor wife to a barbaric culture, giving her no guarantees that you would actually ever go through with the CR1, whereas I put my money where my mouth was by bringing her to the US and marrying her within 90 days."

If he and you both filed K1, "I married my wife a week before you married your wife, so you forced your wife to go through an entire extra week of wondering if you would send her home."

If he and you both filed CR1, "you have provided no evidence that you even have a wife, so I'm better than you."

Exactly, the point being neither is better for the purposes of establishing who is more devoted to their, now, wife or who was ever devoted to them. The purposes of the visas are many and vareid and differ with each couple. We had no need for Alla to work or travel out of the country immediately. We DID possibly, have a reason to be able to apply for a K-2 after our oldest son was 18, and the K-1 offered a faster route for Alla to be here.

Choosing the K-1 because it is "fastest" is not the best route for all people (as we see often with the "What do you mean my wife/husband can't work?" posts) The CR-1 has advantages in this area, but takes longer and not everyone needs the advantages it offers. I presume that adults of marrying age can make the right choice for themselves. If they make the wrong choice, I presume they can deal with the mistake. If they can't deal with their mistakes...I really don't care.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Gary and Alla

[visaveteran 1]

Fact: I married my wife in Russia in her hometown, with her family and friends...and in the Russian tradition. Fact: the rest of you supposedly wife honoring, Russo-centric, swinging diks didn't, or will not. Yet you try to claim the high ground because you rent Russian movies and send flowers on communist holidays. Big deal.

Now, what is the greater gift? Sending her flowers on IWD, or marrying her in her home country? All you honeymoon boys must be shocked that VV trumped your a$$.

The 90 day money back thing has been typically misunderstood or misrepresented by some of you spin doctors and the young miss eekee (who seems to have decided to enter into an exercise in futility). My wife represents one thing to me...a magnificent woman. Play your silly games and make your mean-spirited and sideways comments about money. You're all wrong.

BTW eekee, I never brought my wife to the DR because I decided it would be too difficult for her to make the trip without good English and her lack of travel experience. But, on the other hand, I have clocked 8 trips to the FSU and paid my physical and financial dues. If a woman has to take her turn at some travel suffering, I don't see anything unreasonable? In fact, it sounds fair and "equal." Something I'm sure is important to you.

The K-1 visa is non immigrant and lasts for 90 days. If a marriage does not occur in those 90 days, the lady comes home...probably to a lost job, no flat and other issues. She will probably have a tough time trying to marry another American man as well. If a man decides in the 11th hour to back out of the marriage, he can do so without penalty. This is what I call the money back guarantee. It has nothing to do with money. It's a metaphor.

If some of you want to twist and spin that to relate to money, have fun. This has nothing to do with money. It has to do with armchair heroes talking a good game and yet, when push comes to shove, they prefer a cheap wedding at the nearest JP office to a truly romantic marriage in your wife's home and with her traditions.

The CR-1 visa is an immigrant visa and the woman arrives a legal immigrant with a two-year green card, the right work and travel. What does it take to show this is a superior visa and much better for the wife? The issue is it's easy for you Russia loving cats to let your lady come to a strange land and, alone, without family and friends to celebrate and support, and have her married down at the clerks office.