Sorry, nothing to do with anything

[Calypso 464]

Bereshit - Genesis

Chapter 38

8 And Judah said unto Onan: 'Go in unto thy brother's wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her, and raise up seed to thy brother.'

9 And Onan knew that the seed would not be his; and it came to pass when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest he should give seed to his brother.

10 And the thing which he did was evil in the sight of HaShem; and He slew him also.

The same portion in the Book of Genesis is what Catholic priests use in order to discourage people from masturbating.

I was born and raised Catholic. I still am. I used to never miss Sunday mass.

If you interpret any text with the subjective theory for literary criticism, you can explain it however you want it to be. Just choose one angle and expound. I guess that's what priests have been doing. They have a semester of hermeneutics after all.

[HeatDeath 430]

I can't comment on how Christians interpret Genesis, but the conventional Orthodox Jewish interpretation is halachic prohibition of any spilling of seed other than through vaginal intercourse in marriage.

For example,

http://www.yoatzot.org/article.php?id=121

As I alluded above, I'm well aware of Halachic opinion on the subject. I simply think that the Rabbi's reasons for that opinion are wrong. The best case scenario is that they interpreting the application of the text in a most literal, almost silly manner. Or perhaps, more nefariously , they are (or were) using that application to exert undue control over Jewish society through control of sexuality, the same way medieval Roman Catholic clergy were known to.

It is a serious problem with the "conventional Orthodox Jewish" interpretation, that later Rabbinical interpretations are automatically and unfailingly held to be inferior and subject to earlier interpretations and midrash. This means if that a Rabbi ever was in error in an interpretation, his error will be perfectly preserved inviolate, and amplified over time. This can only cause, over time, the entire corpus of Halachic interpretation and midrash to fall farther and farther into error, until the entire thing bears no resemblance to anything HaShem had in mind.

Edited February 26, 2010 by HeatDeath

[chri'stina 190]

Whether someone believes all the stories in the Bible or not, the fact is that many archaeological digs have shown the way people lived in that area, and what religions they followed during the Bronze age. I took a Biblical archaeology class in secular college, which was very informational. Your history book doesn't have to have the story of Onan in it, but it doesn't nullify the way of life for the people at that time which is proven with plenty of texts and archaeological findings. I think HeatDeath is doing a good job of trying to present an intelligent argument of what they are trying to say and doesn't deserve to be called "mad" for talking about how things were culturally for the Jewish during the Bronze age. (I'm not going to debate the actual topic going on.)

[HeatDeath 430]

Thank you Christina.

You don't have to believe that God exists, or even that Onan ever really existed, to believe that the intent of the author of Bereshiyt / Genesis with the story of Onan was not to describe the (alleged) mystical transcendent wrongness of spilling semen on the ground, but simply to describe the very mundane, obvious, human evil of (literally) screwing over your brother's widow in (literally) the worst possible way, effectively (in modern terms) simultaneously breaking a solemn vow to her, raping her and stealing her retirement fund!

To state that the main point of that story is to show how God hates masturbation is to miss the much more important (not to mention obvious) main point on such a comically, galactically vast scale, that it becomes very easy, frankly, to question the motivations of those who could come up with such a theory in the first place!

Edited February 27, 2010 by HeatDeath

[Y&E 12]

He ruined your thread, you should be mean to him!! He was being annoying to you. He's a well known punk.

Thank you, chri'stina. He did ruin my thread... it definitely wasn't supposed to turn into a religious argument Anywho, I read the phrase 'Be nice twice, then be creative' when it comes to dealing with mean people. That was my first be nice, he's got 1 left.

[scandal 951]

As I alluded above, I'm well aware of Halachic opinion on the subject. I simply think that the Rabbi's reasons for that opinion are wrong. The best case scenario is that they interpreting the application of the text in a most literal, almost silly manner. Or perhaps, more nefariously , they are (or were) using that application to exert undue control over Jewish society through control of sexuality, the same way medieval Roman Catholic clergy were known to.

It is a serious problem with the "conventional Orthodox Jewish" interpretation, that later Rabbinical interpretations are automatically and unfailingly held to be inferior and subject to earlier interpretations and midrash. This means if that a Rabbi ever was in error in an interpretation, his error will be perfectly preserved inviolate, and amplified over time. This can only cause, over time, the entire corpus of Halachic interpretation and midrash to fall farther and farther into error, until the entire thing bears no resemblance to anything HaShem had in mind.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. I'd even say that I agree with your opinion. But all that means is that our opinions are not in compliance with the conventional Halachic point of view.

For reference - I'm Jewish, raised Orthodox and practicing, now completely lapsed and non-practicing. A classic apikoros .

You are right that there's a long history of being machmir to the point of silliness. ('machmir' meaning to take an extremist position on how to interpret an article of Jewish law, 'mekel' meaning to be lenient). Those who are machmir point to Mishna Avot '"asei syag latorah" - build a fence around the Torah- as a d'oraita commandment to take a hardline stance.

An example we are about to have in just one month's time is Pesach. In Israel, Jews celebrate 7 days of Pesach with a Seder on the first night, one day of yom tov at the front, 5 days of chol hamoed, and one day of yom tov at the end. In the Diaspora we have 8 days: 2 Seder nights, 2 days of yom tov up front, 4 days chol hamoed, and 2 days yom tov at the end. Why? Because in ancient Israel there was uncertainty about when the new moon was observed and the month of Nisan started. Within Israel, runners would be dispatched in time to let everyone know prior to Pesach on the 15th of Nisan. Outside of Israel (mainly Babylon in those days), the Diaspora Jewish community wasn't sure when it started. So to be safe, they observed on both of the possible nights to make sure they got it right on at least one of them. A reasonable hachmara for those days. A pointless and silly one in our times, when the calendar is fixed in advance (we don't look to the new moon to determine rosh chodesh), and we have instant global communications. There is no d'oraita reason to celebrate 8 days chag in Diaspora, yet we do it. Why? Because the Rabbis tell us to. Will I be doing so next month? You betcha. Why? Because I belong to a community, and I hang with them. That's what tribes do. They hang together.

The prohibition on masturbation in Judaism is well established. Whether it's well grounded or not is not the question. The textual grounding is Breishit, as discussed. Any deviation from that stance is a deviation from centuries of accepted interpretation and practice. It is what it is.

Whether someone believes all the stories in the Bible or not, the fact is that many archaeological digs have shown the way people lived in that area, and what religions they followed during the Bronze age. I took a Biblical archaeology class in secular college, which was very informational. Your history book doesn't have to have the story of Onan in it, but it doesn't nullify the way of life for the people at that time which is proven with plenty of texts and archaeological findings. I think HeatDeath is doing a good job of trying to present an intelligent argument of what they are trying to say and doesn't deserve to be called "mad" for talking about how things were culturally for the Jewish during the Bronze age. (I'm not going to debate the actual topic going on.)

Absolutely right.

Thank you, chri'stina. He did ruin my thread... it definitely wasn't supposed to turn into a religious argument Anywho, I read the phrase 'Be nice twice, then be creative' when it comes to dealing with mean people. That was my first be nice, he's got 1 left.

That's how it is in OT. Threads turn into conversations about unrelated things, just like in real life conversations. For me, that's something I find appealing. I enjoy it when threads I begin meander in unexpected directions. If you don't like it, perhaps OT is not for you. So far, it hasn't really been a religious argument. I'd call it more of a spirited yet friendly discussion. I'd like to think HeatDeath and others would agree

[HeatDeath 430]

I'd call it more of a spirited yet friendly discussion. I'd like to think HeatDeath and others would agree

I agree

[Y&E 12]

That's how it is in OT. Threads turn into conversations about unrelated things, just like in real life conversations. For me, that's something I find appealing.

Riiight, okay... Maybe it's simply that the way the thread turned is not for me since I don't give two hoots about that discussion. Therefore, my topic was hijacked