Aboriginal leaders: Russian ice dancers' routine still offensive

[neoconsnightmare 0]

Go for it!

LOL...dude, you're good.

alas, i have to go to slumberland. talk with you guys tomorrow.

PEACE!!!!!

[Revenesque 2]

Don't lose your nerve yet! Look - you've already got 3 blue boxes, after only 2 nights of playing. At this rate you too can be post ####### like spooky and moi!

Scandal, he's got another forum where he's supercyberkicks their azzes. This is actually a civil behavior NeoCon's displaying...he'll get bored here.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Revenesque

[neoconsnightmare 0]

Scandal, he's got another forum where he's supercyberkicks their azzes. This is actually a civil behavior NeoCon's displaying...he'll get bored here.

LOL...they haven't seen 'sadistic neo'. hopefully, they never will.

*POOF*

[MrsCat 6]

let's be honest...you having a degree in aborinal studies means about as much as me having my mba. so what? the russian skaters didnt have that degree, nor do the vast majority of folks with a degree.

again, you can NOT answer the question. good for you. but it was a GENERAL QUESTION, not specific to the 'aboriginals' of australia.

i'll keep asking...how do you ask an ENTIRE culture of 460,000 people 'permission' to do an ice dance routine of a traditional dance? the more you avoid, the more you show you don't have an answer.

Well since I guess you can't sleep for the night without knowing the answer, I'll help you out. I'll watch my spelling and grammar too since I am sure you'll have your red marking pen out.

Firstly, I did not call you names. I said your opinion was simplistic and uneducated. That refers to a single thing, which is not you, it refers to your opinion. However I did call you thin skinned, I guess that's a name of sorts.

Now, as for asking an entire culture of people for permission, that's absolutely impossible. That is where protocol comes into place. First off, once the criticism was raised, they should have approached the leaders of the offended communities and see which aspects of their costumes, dance, actions they felt were offensive. They should also have asked for permission to use any of their cultural gestures, movements or depictions of their clothing. If the elder of the community or leader could not give the permission, they would have passed them on to someone in the community or larger society who could. That is Protocol. That's the way it is across almost all Aboriginal cultures. While some may have continued to feel offended, asking for permission and guidance is foremost when you're an outsider asking to come in. Had the Russians done this in the first place, I highly suspect their dance would have been incredible as they would have the fluidity and necessary context for the dance.

As for the ice dance itself, their movements were merely mimicking gestures; they did not represent a true understanding of their culture, significance or meaning. They were savage-like gestures without any understanding or context. Hair-pulling in a caveman fashion and inappropriate facial expressions. Those were offensive. Their inability to truly reflect the culture was clearly reflected in their scores on the ice.

If you are truly interested in the subject, try reading Decolonizing Methodologies by Linda Smith. Its a good jumping off point.

[neoconsnightmare 0]

Well since I guess you can't sleep for the night without knowing the answer, I'll help you out. I'll watch my spelling and grammar too since I am sure you'll have your red marking pen out.

Firstly, I did not call you names. I said your opinion was simplistic and uneducated. That refers to a single thing, which is not you, it refers to your opinion. However I did call you thin skinned, I guess that's a name of sorts.

Now, as for asking an entire culture of people for permission, that's absolutely impossible. That is where protocol comes into place. First off, once the criticism was raised, they should have approached the leaders of the offended communities and see which aspects of their costumes, dance, actions they felt were offensive. They should also have asked for permission to use any of their cultural gestures, movements or depictions of their clothing. If the elder of the community or leader could not give the permission, they would have passed them on to someone in the community or larger society who could. That is Protocol. That's the way it is across almost all Aboriginal cultures. While some may have continued to feel offended, asking for permission and guidance is foremost when you're an outsider asking to come in. Had the Russians done this in the first place, I highly suspect their dance would have been incredible as they would have the fluidity and necessary context for the dance.

As for the ice dance itself, their movements were merely mimicking gestures; they did not represent a true understanding of their culture, significance or meaning. They were savage-like gestures without any understanding or context. Hair-pulling in a caveman fashion and inappropriate facial expressions. Those were offensive. Their inability to truly reflect the culture was clearly reflected in their scores on the ice.

If you are truly interested in the subject, try reading Decolonizing Methodologies by Linda Smith. Its a good jumping off point.

you calling my opinion 'uneducated' and 'simplistic' IS 'name calling'. particularly 'baseless', since you cant PROVE what you said.

so, you can't ask an entire culture, can you? good. ask their leaders? so, these folks were supposed to go according to a non legal 'protocal' and FIND alleged 'leaders' of the aboriginal people to do an ice routine.

not dissing ice skaters, but if they've spent most of their lives skating, that leaves precious little time for college and learning research.

the russian couple screwed up, and then took some stuff off their costumes. beyond that, do you really expect ice skaters to spend time, energy and money seeking out elders of various aboriginal communities?

yes, you have a degree in aboriginal studies, so this is important TO YOU. nothing wrong with that. but you have to see the bigger world just doesn't really view this as 'black face', 'buck tooth chinese' or 'drunken native americans' on ice.

i'm african american, and that's like me getting mad at a happy, 27 year old, middle class blues singer mimicking muddy waters and wearing his style of clothing. wait, that's done all the time on stage. i don't get made, even though the whole 'point' of blues is singing about things that have given you 'the blues' in the life of a poor black person in the southern u.s.

i'll actually find that book you talked about. please note that i'm not slamming anyone in this situation; this is where the mba in me comes out. i look at the action, the numbers of possible offended people, the actions of the russian couple and how it affects most people. and TO ME, it figures to be a sad mistake, and nothing else.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

They're white therefore guilty.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

I'm gunna add my.. ooo 10 cents now (damn exchange rate).

Here's some Aussie news articles on it:

- http://www.news.com.au/national/aborigines...r-1225822375720 (this was when it first came out)

- http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/domni...0-1225822160654 (most interesting)

The second article actually mentions specifically why parts were offensive. Little known fact (outside of Australia), women are NOT ALLOWED to play the didgeridoo. Nicole Kidman did it at a news conference and was slammed for it as she should have known better. There are places in communities where women are not allowed. There are women specific activities, and men specific ones too (some also mixed). So basically it was that they went out and did something that could have got them into some serious trouble (almost like breaking a law in Aboriginal terms) which is why it was so offensive.

Also, as for asking the culture, it's pretty easy to google, as stated in one of the articles. If they really wanted to win a gold medal they should have asked for help and guidance... it would have been more authentic which I thought was a big point of the whole dance routine.

[scandal 951]

A public service announcement.

This thread has been hijacked. It is no longer about serious discussions of relative cultural anthropology of various indigenous peoples around the globe. Actually, it never was about that. It was a silly thread to begin with, and has remained silly. It is now officially designated as a 'stupid n00b pic' posting zone.

If that didn't get your attention, perhaps this random piece of interwebz art will. Carry on.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

The 'controversy' strikes me as both contrived and more than a bit silly. It is ice dancing for goodness sake! Gnarly costumes are a risk skaters and fans take.

[Ali G. 37]

That's a douchebag statement if I ever heard one. Australia treats the Aborigines like #######, but you think that's ok?

They do? How so?

[Ali G. 37]

a reincarnation of Hyena.

What ever happened to that guy?

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

this must be the new tos violations thread

[neoconsnightmare 0]

I'm gunna add my.. ooo 10 cents now (damn exchange rate).

Here's some Aussie news articles on it:

- http://www.news.com.au/national/aborigines...r-1225822375720 (this was when it first came out)

- http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/domni...0-1225822160654 (most interesting)

The second article actually mentions specifically why parts were offensive. Little known fact (outside of Australia), women are NOT ALLOWED to play the didgeridoo. Nicole Kidman did it at a news conference and was slammed for it as she should have known better. There are places in communities where women are not allowed. There are women specific activities, and men specific ones too (some also mixed). So basically it was that they went out and did something that could have got them into some serious trouble (almost like breaking a law in Aboriginal terms) which is why it was so offensive.

Also, as for asking the culture, it's pretty easy to google, as stated in one of the articles. If they really wanted to win a gold medal they should have asked for help and guidance... it would have been more authentic which I thought was a big point of the whole dance routine.

good morning folks.

vanessa (or tony? or both?):

me thinks the aboriginals are a tad sensitive on this one. don't get me wrong...they've got and have faced MAJOR ISSUES at the hands of the australian government. that's why i think it's a bit odd they'd choose two russian SKATERS to do complaining about. it was a skating routine; ill conceived maybe. but do you really think the russian skaters said:

"hmmmm, lets pick on a minority group somewhere in the world, interpret one of their traditional dances in a way that is PURPOSELY OFFENSIVE. what's the worst that can happen in the olympics where our routine is pretty much subjectively evaluated" ?

of course not.

as far as women not allowed to play the didgeridoo and other things you said yourself are 'little known outside of australia'...this fact, from an outsiders perspective, is pretty unimportant. the skaters were getting together a skate routine, not a diplomatic mission. nicole kidman may have been 'slammed', but obviously her career was not derailed by her playing the instrument.

they went out and did a dance routine that, AT WORST, was 'insensitive'. what 'serious trouble' could they have gotten into? they aren't aboriginals, so they aren't bound by aboriginal law. the aboriginals are only 2% of australia's population, thus russian skaters won't be sent to an aborigional court and sentenced to years in an aboriginal prison.

let's be honest...it's much ado about nothing.

[Peikko 1,575]

If offended my eyeballs!

I would suggest that this was more tasteless than offensive but then I don't have a degree in aboriginal studies, so clearly my opinion isn't worth a toss

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

let's be honest...it's much ado about nothing.

i disagree. it's much ado about very little