America's No. 1 Killer: Cardiovascular Disease. How Americanized do you really want to become?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

However, it is interesting that you conclude by saying, in essence, it is the best way to deliver mediocraty to health care for all. In other words, bring us all down to the lowest common denominator.

It is interesting that you conclude that affordable healthcare = mediocrity for all. That's disingenuous to say the least.

[neoconsnightmare 0]

That's because I went to bed and then went skiing and left you with people that think paying cash hurts others and that the French Revolution occured before the American Revolution. And you expected otherwise? Sorry. I had a great day at the ski resort, I can't ski yet...doctors orders, but I took some walks on the nordic trails while Alla and Pasha did the slopes. I am at that awkward stage, I feel better than I have in years but can't ski becuase it takes many months for the breast bone to mend and the doctor is afraid I will crash into a tree. (Moi? Ne pas moi!) <---(French influence for Stephen)

I looked through here and see no definitive posts yet relating life expectancy to health care. Why? I mean I see posts about life expectancey and note that some countries that have longer life expectancies than the US have health care...but many that have shorter life expectancies also have health care. seems like the health care issue is a ####### shoot at best. Why would I support it on that basis? Why would you, is the better question? Do you guys have anything else? There is no cause/effect here.

The following statement is true, based on what has been presented....

Some countries that have universal health care have longer life expectancies than the USA. SOME countries that have universal health care have shorter life expectancies. Reasons for the variances are not presented in these surveys[/b]

Next question.

Do you have any data to explain strange variations? For example, Ukraine men have a life expectancy of 58 years, Ukraine women 77 years. Why? They have the same health care system. So one can presume it is NOT the health care system that makes the difference.

What is the reason? Can these reasons apply to other countries? USA?

Can you post any data explaining the variances in life expectancies among countries with health care? Why is Japan better than, for example, UK? It is for the same reason it is better than Canada? Do any of the factors impact the life expectancy in the USA.

Guys (and gals) I was so hoping for more given the lead in. I mean Ravenesque stated this as her ONLY reason for supporting health care, but it is not related to health care at all...that I can see. Please, if you will, give the data you offered. I am an engneer and nothing scientific or conclusive can be decided from this data. If I were paid to make a conclusion from for a clienbt from this data, I would have to decline the assigment, simply not enough information. OR the client would have to agree to pay my hourly rate for further study. No one can make an informed decision from this data...can they?

I look forward to the references that you guys said you would post, obviously this isn't it.

Thanks. Things ought to get a bit more lively...right about....NOW.

WRONG! you say here:

"Guys (and gals) I was so hoping for more given the lead in. I mean Ravenesque stated this as her ONLY reason for supporting health care"

she never said the 'ONLY' reason. she said:

1 cheaper for her;

2 lower costs all around;

3 greatest good for greatest number of people.

all your stuff about ukraine, etc., is a failed diverison. didn't fool anyone, nor did it divert from your inability to defend your arguements with PROOF.

i noticed you can't explain why, according to the CIA, the u.s. is ranked #49 in life expectancy. i'll put up the link again:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...r/2102rank.html

you said that england, australia and canada don't 'count accidental and criminal deaths', correct? where's your proof. and how do you explain japan being #3 on the list of life expectancy, when they have one of the highest suicide rates in the industrial world? suicide is NOT a crime in japan, by the way (just learned that).

explain yourself, if you can. again:

1) PROVE that the other countries dont include 'accidental and criminal death';

2) PROVE revenesque said 'ONLY' one reason for supporting health care;

3) EXPLAIN why japan is #3 on the 'life expectancy' chart, and has one of the highest suicide rates. since its not a crime, then that kinda kicks out your 'accidental and criminal deaths' statement.

while waiting for you to respond, i'd also like to know this:

where did you get the time to research the costs to cut your bill in half to about $178K?

given that the median networth of americans is $86,000 (she posted the link proving this), you DO realize that:

1) most people don't have the time to research like you claim to have;

2) the VAST MAJORITY of americans dont have a net worth to pay even $178K of medical bills, even over a period of years?

as such, your suggestion is without merit, and totally ignores the abilities of people to pay. you've not given any rational reason to NOT have universal health care.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Seems to me that the guy who can afford to pay near $200K out of pocket with no insurance isn't in the best position to claim that ensuring a reasonable and affordable standard of healthcare for all people amounts to "mediocrity". He'd rather assume that problems of accessibility don't exist and that we can judge the relative quality of healthcare in the United States solely on the basis of the survival rates for different conditions.

[neoconsnightmare 0]

Seems to me that the guy who can afford to pay near $200K out of pocket with no insurance isn't in the best position to claim that ensuring a reasonable and affordable standard of healthcare for all people amounts to "mediocrity". He'd rather assume that problems of accessibility don't exist and that we can judge the relative quality of healthcare in the United States solely on the basis of the survival rates for different conditions.

Funny thing is, based on the data revenesqe gave, even folks in the 80 percentile of networth in the united state would have a damned near impossible time paying $178K's worth of medical bills. and that's a 'bargained down' price, per his story.

IF he really didn't have insurance, and IF he really paid his $178K tab, surely, he'd be somewhere in the 81st percentile or up; which means he'd HAVE to understand that 81 percent of the folks (minimum) aren't like him. LOL

people that are so against universal health in the u.s. make me laugh. beyond being selfish (even at the cost of THEM suffering), they have no logical reasons to be against it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Usually, the argument that is trotted out if you can't afford the healthcare you need is that you aren't working hard enough (ergo - its your fault).

Yep, I know.

[Peikko 1,575]

Yes, making excuses already. But you will endorse raw numbers like life expectancy and not apply any of the variables to that. Interesting how scientific you and Gene become when looking at data that do not agree with your position. I didn;t really expect it to do any good for some people, particularly those that think my paying cash for the full amount is worse than an insurance company (and their policy holders) paying double the normal price.

However, it is interesting that you conclude by saying, in essence, it is the best way to deliver mediocraty to health care for all. In other words, bring us all down to the lowest common denominator. What yu=ou say an=bout people being able to afford the best... it is true, and will be, until they can no longer come to the USA because our health care is lowered to the same standard as theirs. Where will the Newfoundland Prime Minister go for heart surgery? Cuba?

And now you see why I do not waste my time applying data that meet my standard to this forum. Why bother. What you think couldn;t possibly matter less, so any effort on my part is a waste of time, even if you would read it.

Don't waste your time on me, I really don't give a #######. Suffice to say, simply posting data regarding survivabilty for different proceedures is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot and no, providing adequate health care for all is not 'bringing everyone down to mediocraty'. Those who can afford to pay for the best will always pay for the best, there is room for private clinics in a Universal health care system, Harley St is alive and well.

[neoconsnightmare 0]

Usually, the argument that is trotted out if you can't afford the healthcare you need is that you aren't working hard enough (ergo - its your fault).

Yep, I know.

LOL...that's why he's so quiet. oh, wait, he's 'skiing' now.

i call 'male bovine feces' on his story.

[Peikko 1,575]

I never did understand the need to justify one's opinion in terms of ones income, education, time spent while not posting on message boards or how hot one's wife is.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

LOL...that's why he's so quiet. oh, wait, he's 'skiing' now.

i call 'male bovine feces' on his story.

Yeah I don't get the deal with why he feels it necessary to toss in those bizarre personal anecdotes whenever he gets defensive, especially the stuff about his wife looking great on the slopes, or wearing a bikini on the deck of his boat. Its the sort of thing a fratboy might do, not someone in their 50s or 60s. It's a bit odd.

[Peikko 1,575]

It does rather make his wife appear to be merely some symbol of success as apposed to a life partner with a value beyond her physical attributes - not that she is, but that's the impression he gives with such statements.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[neoconsnightmare 0]

I never did understand the need to justify one's opinion in terms of ones income, education, time spent while not posting on message boards or how hot one's wife is.

BINGO!

[neoconsnightmare 0]

Yeah I don't get the deal with why he feels it necessary to toss in those bizarre personal anecdotes whenever he gets defensive, especially the stuff about his wife looking great on the slopes, or wearing a bikini on the deck of his boat. Its the sort of thing a fratboy might do, not someone in their 50s or 60s. It's a bit odd.

not odd...PREDICTABLE.

'male bovine feces'.

or, if you prefer, replace 'feces' with 'merde'.

[neoconsnightmare 0]

It does rather make his wife appear to be merely some symbol of success as apposed to a life partner with a value beyond her physical attributes - not that she is, but that's the impression he gives with such statements.

LOL...he's SOOOO rich! why does he bother with the plebs?

[Texanadian 10]

Don't you people have jobs? How did this thread grow so fast since I last posted?

Re: part of Vermont wanting to suceed with New Hampshire.

The town of Killington has twice voted (March 2004 and March 2005) to secede from Vermont and become part of the state of New Hampshire. Because the town is not adjacent to the New Hampshire border, this would create an enclave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killington,_V...ession_movement (more detailed write up)

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

WRONG! you say here:

"Guys (and gals) I was so hoping for more given the lead in. I mean Ravenesque stated this as her ONLY reason for supporting health care"

she never said the 'ONLY' reason. she said:

1 cheaper for her;

2 lower costs all around;

3 greatest good for greatest number of people.

all your stuff about ukraine, etc., is a failed diverison. didn't fool anyone, nor did it divert from your inability to defend your arguements with PROOF.

i noticed you can't explain why, according to the CIA, the u.s. is ranked #49 in life expectancy. i'll put up the link again:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...r/2102rank.html

you said that england, australia and canada don't 'count accidental and criminal deaths', correct? where's your proof. and how do you explain japan being #3 on the list of life expectancy, when they have one of the highest suicide rates in the industrial world? suicide is NOT a crime in japan, by the way (just learned that).

explain yourself, if you can. again:

1) PROVE that the other countries dont include 'accidental and criminal death';

2) PROVE revenesque said 'ONLY' one reason for supporting health care;

3) EXPLAIN why japan is #3 on the 'life expectancy' chart, and has one of the highest suicide rates. since its not a crime, then that kinda kicks out your 'accidental and criminal deaths' statement.

while waiting for you to respond, i'd also like to know this:

where did you get the time to research the costs to cut your bill in half to about $178K?

given that the median networth of americans is $86,000 (she posted the link proving this), you DO realize that:

1) most people don't have the time to research like you claim to have;

2) the VAST MAJORITY of americans dont have a net worth to pay even $178K of medical bills, even over a period of years?

as such, your suggestion is without merit, and totally ignores the abilities of people to pay. you've not given any rational reason to NOT have universal health care.

Part A

1. No supported by any data Ravenesque provided

2. Not supported by any data Ravenesque provided (or you)

3. Not supported by ay data Ravenesuqe or you provided.

I could say the exact opposite and attach the life expectancy charts for proof. Life expectancy does not address any of the above. Please provide data to support wht YOU say and then I will provide mine. I am still waiting.

Part B

1, 2, 3. Irrelevent. The data YOU provided (again) shows that while the US may be 49th, that mneans there are sone 130 countries with lower life expectancies than the USA, most of whihc have health universal health care. Using YOUR figures, I can say, conclusively

"1/3 of coutries with universal health care have longer life expectanices than the USA. 2/3 of the countries with universal health care have shorter life expectancies than the USA"

My Ukraine comparison is not irrelevent in showing that there are variablkes other than health care in life expectancy. Your figures prove that also, UNLESS you are will to concide there is a 66% chance our life expectancy will get worse with universal health care. The data you provide indicate that.

Part C

1. I didn't need any time to research anything. I asked for the bill, the bill included a 50% discount for uninsured/self insured. It is not the first hospital bill I have paid for. I do have a family and we do have medical expenses on an ongoing basis, I know the local hospital's policy. (big shocker, eh?) It isn't like it is a secret. I do not need a posting of the median income, I didn't ask for it, I do not care what the median income or net worth or whatever is. "Median" means half are above that point and half are below. I am in the "above" half. I knew that, I do not need a chart to tell me so.

2. So? I do. Let the others buy their own insurance or get it through their employer. I don't have to. get over it. The VAST majority of Americans, something like 90% even by the most pessimistic standards, have their own health insurance. I am one of the 30 million (or whatever million it is this week whether or not you count illegal aliens) and I choose not to have it. I zm Given that we have HSA legislation I would have to say I am not the only one, I am sure my bank didn't start the HSA program just for me.

Oh yeah...the 178,000 was mostly tax free. I will deduct it from my 2009 income so it is not all bad news.

So, when I see the documentation that I asked for, twice and even gave details, only then would I even consider offering to spend my time to prove anything to you. Frankly I do not care if you believe me or not. The Democrats have so fouled up any opportunity at health care reform, it is really just a "hot stove league" issue anyway.

Don't you people have jobs? How did this thread grow so fast since I last posted?

Re: part of Vermont wanting to suceed with New Hampshire.

The town of Killington has twice voted (March 2004 and March 2005) to secede from Vermont and become part of the state of New Hampshire. Because the town is not adjacent to the New Hampshire border, this would create an enclave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killington,_V...ession_movement (more detailed write up)

Ok, you win. Vermont wants tobe part of New Hampshire. I have to go back to work now.