America's No. 1 Killer: Cardiovascular Disease. How Americanized do you really want to become?

[neoconsnightmare 0]

Many basically refers to everyone who has lived in Chicago that I have communicated with. All seem to have the same lock-step view of Chicago and being the best. Different strokes for different folks I guess. As you said, opinions are like blowholes.. When people disagree with one anther's opinion, I just prefer to compare international studies, rather than articles from magazines targeted towards guys discussing how to pick up chicks.

If you have some free time, here are three separate international studies comparing cities..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_mos...le_Cities_Index

Here are also some street shots I noticed a while back. From what I hear, Chicago is not that bad and basically the quality of the photo has a lot to do with the random shots.

Canada: - Vancouver metro area (Random)

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=49....,143.74,,0,4.22

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&layer=...803448&z=13

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&layer=...213791&z=11

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&layer=...213791&z=11

US: - Chicago metro area (Random)

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41....182.28,,0,-4.51

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41....,294.02,,0,-5.3

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41....,299.52,,0,0.36

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41....177.53,,0,-0.97

just looking at the first two photos, you got some 'million dollar plus homes' in vancouver versus a working class neighorhood in chicago. remember, chicago is PHYSICALLY larger than vancouver (225 square miles versus 46 square miles) and has about 5.5 times as many people (3 million versus 578,000) and the housing stock is older. so you're going to see way more affluent people and way more poor people and way more in between in chicago.

the 'magnificent mile' is downtown chicago shopping. its on the north end of the loop, and since the south loop area has been prettified the last 20 or so years, you might as well extend that another mile plus. also the neighborhood where obama lived, hyde park, is upper class, and has the u of chicago in it.

again, as we agreed, it's all a matter of opinion. not dogging any other city (love vancouver, and i LOVE northwest winters) but chicago is where my roots are.

[neoconsnightmare 0]

I think "many from Chicago"= me. Oh, and I suppose HAL, the other resident VJer from Chitown.

Go Bears!! Next year, lawd a willin', Urlacher is healthy; Lovey gets it together; Cutler stops throwing picks, Hester, Aromashodu, Knox and Olsen get the passing plays down, and ON WE GO TO A FULL CAPS-LOCK POSTSEASON AND SUPERBOWL!!! :dance: GO BEARS!!!!

Are ya hungry yet for a good hot beef, Chicago style, loaded with Giardiniera? Mmmmm....

LOL...i want that pizza, and some vienna kosher hotdogs on a grill!

yeah, my team was, is and will always be the chicago bulls and the white sox (everybody gets excited about the cubs, but i grew up in the south suburbs and my parents the south side).

yeah, and the lake front in summer...BEAUTIFUL. going back in may, and likely july.

[scandal 951]

yeah, and the lake front in summer...BEAUTIFUL. going back in may, and likely july.

Talking about the lake front, here's a little Chicago factoid not all know:

http://www.grantparkmusicfestival.com/about

The Grant Park Music Festival

The Grant Park Music Festival is the nation’s only remaining free, outdoor classical music series. Each summer, the Festival is committed to providing free classical music to all of Chicago in its new venue — the Jay Pritzker Pavilion in Millennium Park.

The Grant Park Music Festival was conceived by Mayor A. J. Cermak during the Great Depression in 1931 when the city presented a series of free concerts to lift the spirits of Chicagoans.

...

In 2004, the Festival moved to its new home in the Jay Pritzker Pavilion in Millennium Park. This state-of-the-art music pavilion was designed by internationally renowned architect Frank Gehry and features an unparalleled acoustic system created by the Talaske Group, Inc. of Oak Park, IL. The first permanent outdoor installation of its kind in the United States, the Pavilion’s sound system features digitally processed “virtual architecture” and an open-air acoustical canopy to create a state-of-the-art sonic experience.

It's truly marvelous, and free to boot. Can't wait for summer!

[neoconsnightmare 0]

Only pulling your leg though, I like to stir some certain folks from certain cities, that are fanatical about them..

no problem...if you can't laugh, what fun is it?

[Peikko 1,575]

I see this thread took an unexpected turn

[Revenesque 2]

Helloooooooo! (echo, echo, echo...) Anyone here? (echo, echo, echo...)

Damn, this thread is dead.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Helloooooooo! (echo, echo, echo...) Anyone here? (echo, echo, echo...)

Damn, this thread is dead.

That's because I went to bed and then went skiing and left you with people that think paying cash hurts others and that the French Revolution occured before the American Revolution. And you expected otherwise? Sorry. I had a great day at the ski resort, I can't ski yet...doctors orders, but I took some walks on the nordic trails while Alla and Pasha did the slopes. I am at that awkward stage, I feel better than I have in years but can't ski becuase it takes many months for the breast bone to mend and the doctor is afraid I will crash into a tree. (Moi? Ne pas moi!) <---(French influence for Stephen)

I looked through here and see no definitive posts yet relating life expectancy to health care. Why? I mean I see posts about life expectancey and note that some countries that have longer life expectancies than the US have health care...but many that have shorter life expectancies also have health care. seems like the health care issue is a ####### shoot at best. Why would I support it on that basis? Why would you, is the better question? Do you guys have anything else? There is no cause/effect here.

The following statement is true, based on what has been presented....

Some countries that have universal health care have longer life expectancies than the USA. SOME countries that have universal health care have shorter life expectancies. Reasons for the variances are not presented in these surveys[/b]

Next question.

Do you have any data to explain strange variations? For example, Ukraine men have a life expectancy of 58 years, Ukraine women 77 years. Why? They have the same health care system. So one can presume it is NOT the health care system that makes the difference.

What is the reason? Can these reasons apply to other countries? USA?

Can you post any data explaining the variances in life expectancies among countries with health care? Why is Japan better than, for example, UK? It is for the same reason it is better than Canada? Do any of the factors impact the life expectancy in the USA.

Guys (and gals) I was so hoping for more given the lead in. I mean Ravenesque stated this as her ONLY reason for supporting health care, but it is not related to health care at all...that I can see. Please, if you will, give the data you offered. I am an engneer and nothing scientific or conclusive can be decided from this data. If I were paid to make a conclusion from for a clienbt from this data, I would have to decline the assigment, simply not enough information. OR the client would have to agree to pay my hourly rate for further study. No one can make an informed decision from this data...can they?

I look forward to the references that you guys said you would post, obviously this isn't it.

Thanks. Things ought to get a bit more lively...right about....NOW.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Gary, I look forward to the time when you hold yourself to the same standards you demand of others

[Ali G. 37]

Gary please don't take this in the wrong way but everyone I know who has a wife from the Eastern Block, including my close friend, always refers to some example their wife has, to make their point. Bad example.. The Eastern Block to Australia/Canada are worlds apart.

Here are the sources you asked for. Any good?

Life Expectancy

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/sto...nt/flyp_ibm_07/ - 2009 data from OECD Health Data

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...life_expectancy - 2009 data from the CIA and UN

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi...life+expectancy - 2007 data from the World Bank

Ranking of health care systems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHO%27s_ranki...th_care_systems - 2000 W.H.O report

Health spending Per Capita

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/sto...nt/flyp_ibm_07/ - 2009 data from OECD Health Data

Edited February 23, 2010 by Booyah

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Gary please don't take this in the wrong way but everyone I know who has a wife from the Eastern Block, including my close friend, always refers to some example their wife has, to make their point. Bad example.. The Eastern Block to Australia/Canada are worlds apart.

Here are the sources you asked for. Any good?

Life Expectancy

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/sto...nt/flyp_ibm_07/ - 2009 data from OECD Health Data

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...life_expectancy - 2009 data from the CIA and UN

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi...life+expectancy - 2007 data from the World Bank

Ranking of health care systems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHO%27s_ranki...th_care_systems - 2000 W.H.O report

Health spending Per Capita

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/sto...nt/flyp_ibm_07/ - 2009 data from OECD Health Data

Booyah, I already looked at those. They offer no information from which to draw a conclusion. Please read my above post for an explanation which involves more than Ukraine. I look forward to you posting what you said you would.

I would like data which shows the conclusive cause/effect of life expectancies. merely showing me life expectancies vary from country to country (big suprise) proves nothing about health care.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I would expect Gary, that a comprehensive analysis of the relative differences in the quality of different healthcare systems; as well as wealth distribution, social and socioeconomic disparities, genetics and environmental factors is probably beyond the ability of anyone on this forum (beyond even the talents of the people gathering the data that you are discounting). Even if you just wanted to know about a single country, let alone a comparison of several.

We have statistical differences of statistical data (statistics are usually collected with stated limitations in the methodology) supplemented with qualititative explanations of what they mean.

That's the best you are going to get - if you don't like it, I'm sure a guy with your talents could produce something better.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Gene Hunt

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Gary, I look forward to the time when you hold yourself to the same standards you demand of others

Actually Gene, in all seriousnes, I do. I am an engineer and I would never, ever, consider presenting a client such information as the conclusion of a feasibilty study, for example. Imagine I do an energy feasibility study for a multi-million dollar co-generation system and give them the consulsion that it will save them money because...LOOK!!!!!....electric rates in Austrailia are higher than electric rates in the UK.

Gene, there is no way in hell I could write a check for open heart surgery if I did that all of my career. You think anyone would pay me that kind of money for this tripe? I assure you, I hold myself to much higher standards and only present tested and repeatable data, isolating other potential causes, before making a conclusion which I will sign my name to.

WHEN someone supporting universal health care...ANYONE presents conclusive data, I will present mine, and it is of a much higher standard than this. I wouldn't clutter my computer's memory with this junk as presented here. Please, if I can do it for a mere multi-million $ project, someone here can do it to support take over of 1/6th of our economy.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Actually Gene, in all seriousnes, I do. I am an engineer and I would never, ever, consider presenting a client such information as the conclusion of a feasibilty study, for example. Imagine I do an energy feasibility study for a multi-million dollar co-generation system and give them the consulsion that it will save them money because...LOOK!!!!!....electric rates in Austrailia are higher than electric rates in the UK.

Gene, there is no way in hell I could write a check for open heart surgery if I did that all of my career. You think anyone would pay me that kind of money for this tripe? I assure you, I hold myself to much higher standards and only present tested and repeatable data, isolating other potential causes, before making a conclusion which I will sign my name to.

WHEN someone supporting universal health care...ANYONE presents conclusive data, I will present mine, and it is of a much higher standard than this. I wouldn't clutter my computer's memory with this junk as presented here. Please, if I can do it for a mere multi-million $ project, someone here can do it to support take over of 1/6th of our economy.

With all due respect (which should be taken as sarcastic statement - because no respect is due), the only thing you have PERSONALLY presented in this thread is your ability to patronize people and aggrandise yourself with flights of egotism.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

That's because I went to bed and then went skiing and left you with people that think paying cash hurts others and that the French Revolution occured before the American Revolution.

You spineless hypocrite. Move on my #######. You're going to mischaracterize and milk it for all its worth because your understanding of American history is weak. Work on your arguing skills and come back to me when you got some.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Galt's gallstones

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I would expect Gary, that a comprehensive analysis of the relative differences in the quality of different healthcare systems; as well as wealth distribution, social and socioeconomic disparities, genetics and environmental factors is probably beyond the ability of anyone on this forum (beyond even the talents of the people gathering the data that you are discounting). Even if you just wanted to know about a single country, let alone a comparison of several.

We have statistical differences of statistical data (statistics are usually collected with stated limitations in the methodology) supplemented with qualititative explanations of what they mean.

That's the best you are going to get - if you don't like it, I'm sure a guy with your talents could produce something better.

I suspect you are right Gene. So I will accept that life expectancy (as presented here, not isolated as to cause) is NOT a good reason for universal health care and my initial response to Ravenesque was correct....YOU LOSE.

This is simply not a reason at all to trust a large portion of our economy to the government. Anyone who thinks so is either unable to decipher facts...or is biased for another reason and this is just an excuse. OR has no idea how to do a scientific study of a scientific topic and jumps on this because it is a catchy sound bite. Scandal could easily fall into that category. So could anyone that doesn't know about the Green Mountain Boys or that the American Revolution came before the French Reveolution. But what is YOUR excuse? And Ravenesque really seems more intelligent than that at first blush.

Absolutely I could produce something better, but it would not draw the conslusion you want and then you would say I am biased. There are simply too many variables in the life expectancy equation for that to be used as a yardstick. Not possible.

The BEST data (and not perfect at that) is to use the survival rates of patients with particular diseases. Two people, both have colon cancer. What is the average survival in Canada and USA? I mean these two people, despite any other variables, are now affected by the same disease and in need of health care. The same health care. NOW we are comparing HEALTH CARE, Are you game? How well do breast cancer patients survive. heart disease, diabetes, etc. we can compare as many diseases as you like. we can compare the TREATMENT SUCCESS of patients in many countries.

How do you feel about that? I have the data. I would be glad to post it. In order to appear as unbiased as possible (you know what this data shows...I am confident) I will allow YOU and others, to choose which treatments you want me to compare in my post. I will then assemble the data and present it in a clear and conclusive manner...to my high standard...for you to review. With reference links from a reliable and objective source.

I ain't a-skeered 'o no booger man, how 'bout you?.