America's No. 1 Killer: Cardiovascular Disease. How Americanized do you really want to become?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

It also has to do with making financial choices that make no sense and trying to justify them for ideological reasons. Most Americans simply do not have vast reserves of cash just laying around to pay for out of pocket healthcare costs.

Clean your own damned heart pipes!

Gene,

it is not something we need to worry about if we keep goverment out of health care. There is no shortage of people that will go to school and learn to do bypass surgery at $360,000 each (well, that includes hospital costs also, not just the surgery) However, in the Eutopian former Soviet Union, where thay have free health "care" as Alla says...you would have simply died. The male life expectancy there is 58.

I had the pipes replaced...not cleaned out.

[Texanadian 10]

Vermont is NOT a libertarian state. Vermont is democrat all the way. The land of Bernie Sanders and Howard Dean. People not happy with Vermont tried to get a section of it to suceed to New Hampshire (which is the most libertarian state by far)

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/pf/070...endliest/8.html (Vermont is dead last in this regard)

Gallstones is correct in that libertarians belive that an individual is free to do whatever they want to/with themselves as long as it doesn't harm anybody else.

I can't think of any tax that is dumber than income tax. Taxes are meant to persuade people to do less of the thing being taxed. A disincentive. The harder you work, the more you pay? #######! There is a reason you pay sales tax in restaurants but not on groceries. There is a reason we have a cigarette tax but not a celery tax. A booze tax but not a water tax.

Booyah, do you somehow think that the USA doesn't have parks and swimming pools and sports facilities and sidewalks?

I don't have a source for the Manitoba nursing situation. That story broke about 10 years ago. What that says is that Canada is losing it's new nurses while the USA is gaining. 60 Minutes did a story about poor countries losing their nurses to the US as well, and how poor countries are left with very little in the way of nurses. It's a phenominon called "brain drain."

As for why libertarians aren't voted in more often? It's because people are bribed with their own money. Always wanting something for nothing. Another's state sucking money from the Federal government is pork. BUt when that money comes to a home state, it's job creating and bringing the money back. Republicans promise low tax and freedom and then deficit spend and impede. Democrats at least say they will tax you and give you something for it. But the tax is always on somebody else. Never you. Libertarians don't believe in giving away stuff at all. The perfect example is illegals who get free health care. That's a federal rule that you can't be turned away even if you're illegal. That rule would dissappear with libertarians. There would be no earned income credit. We wasted 700 billion dollars in stimulus that did little to stem the tide of unemployment. For 1 trillion we could have simply not had Federal income taxes on anybody! When you do that, there is no fraud or diverted funds. People would have been encouraged to work more. Save more. Everybody benefits under libertarianism. Under Repubs, the rich get a tax break. Under Democrats the rich get taxed (which gets passed on to us). Under libertarians, it's equal no matter where you are in the spectrum. We can debate income taxes in another thread.

Getting back to health care. The biggest cause of inflated health insurance costs is because of the employer provided health care situation. That started during World War II when the US government instituted wage and price freezes. Employers decided a way to give more benefits to workers was to provide them with health care insurance. It was cheap back then. And as we all know, employers can write off the entire amount of your insurance from their taxes. But you can't do that. You can only write off anything above 7.5% of your gross income while at the same time giving up your standard deduction. A company that gives a lowe wage and higher health insurance plan wins twice because they also have to pay less FICA on your behalf too. So we get a situation where employers would rather spend more on health care than they would on wages. Employees aren't involved with their health care plan or premiums other than a $10 co-pay once in awhile. So they're encouraged to use it more often than if they were self insured with their own plan. small business loses because they have a smaller pool than say Sears and General Motors and thus pay more per worker. And the cost of health insurance goes up year after year. Now we're at the point where companies can't afford the coverage anymore.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

You totally lost me there. What does the same procedure costing less in another country have to do with Cleo or insurance? Since the middleman is not a factor and the services are provided at cost price, the services costs much less to administer overseas.

Thanks for your example, as I can build on it further. What is happening here is that the gas cost 45 cents per gallon to purchase wholesale. Once the middleman and every other stakeholder adds their cut, it ends up being billed to the end user for $2.45 a gallon. Whereas, the same gallon is sold for 55 cents in Aus; which is just enough to cover all of the costs.

OK, once again from the top for Obama voters and believers in Leprechauns and man-made global warming. I paid cash and got a 50% discount for not using insurance. Cleo says I am a drain on the system because I didn't pay the full ride. YOU say insurance raises the cost of surgery 80% in the US compared to UK and Canada...still with me? so in your scenario, the Austrailians are costin gus money because they are not paying the full price for gasoline ad that is why we have $2.45 per gallon. See how that works?

If YOU are right, I overpaid by 30% and want my money back.

There are no leprechauns. I was joking about those.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Yeah well, its a good thing that not every country's national health system can be judged according to the yardstick of ex-Soviet republics.

Not to mention, the average life expectancy in the US is lower than in much of europe. Infant mortality is higher too.

[Texanadian 10]

Actually now that I think about it, most of Europe smoke like chimneys and drink like fishes compared to the USA. Why would we want to be more like them?

[Texanadian 10]

http://postcarboncities.net/node/2984

Gas prices in Sydney, Australia, are soaring - but they're not hurting everyone evenly. A recent study has found that residents of the western ring of suburbs are spending, on average, three times what their inner-city counterparts are spending on fuel. Insufficient public transit infrastructure gives residents of these suburbs little option but to keep paying, at a cost to other parts of their lives and to the community.

» 2179 reads

Published 10 May 2008 by The Sydney Morning Herald, http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/famili...0131264181.html

[This is an EXCERPT: read the original article at the Sydney Morning Herald. There's also good commentary and charts on The Oil Drum. This issue is close to home for any city with suburbs, especially as the US sees gas prices above $4/gallon in more and more places. -Ed.]

Families in west running on empty

by Jano Gibson

"SOARING fuel prices are carving into the budgets of car-dependent households in western Sydney, exacerbating problems of insufficient public transport options and long distances to workplaces."

"With fuel prices at about $1.50 a litre, households in the city's outer western ring - many of which are struggling with mortgage repayments - are sacrificing more than 6 per cent of their gross household income on petrol, [PhD student at the University of Technology, Sydney] Mr [Peter] Rickwood's research shows.

"Households in the inner city are using less than 2 per cent of their incomes on fuel."

"As rising fuel prices began to put the squeeze on family budgets, everything from doing volunteer work to driving to children's weekend sporting events could be affected, [Tony Hay, president of the Western Sydney Regional Organisation of Councils] said.

"'All the activities that make us a community, not just an economy, have the potential to be severely impacted.'"

Texanadian: Looks like Australia is paying in prices per litre. Gotta multiply that by 3.78 to get a US gallon price. You guys were paying more than we were during the big gas price hike of 2008. Maybe Australia should build some more sidewalks so people can walk and bicycle places instead.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Actually now that I think about it, most of Europe smoke like chimneys and drink like fishes compared to the USA. Why would we want to be more like them?

The Founding Fathers of this country were influenced by the French Revolution and from there, there's a long list of examples where one country influenced another towards progress. The fact that we are the only industrialized nation that doesn't have universal health care should make us stand up and take notice. Particularly given that health care costs are an increasing part of our GDP. It stands at 16% of the GDP, second only to East Timor.

So just what countries do we want to aspire to? East Timor or Western Europe when it comes to health care?

Edited February 22, 2010 by Galt's gallstones

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Vermont is NOT a libertarian state. Vermont is democrat all the way. The land of Bernie Sanders and Howard Dean. People not happy with Vermont tried to get a section of it to suceed to New Hampshire (which is the most libertarian state by far)

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/pf/070...endliest/8.html (Vermont is dead last in this regard)

Gallstones is correct in that libertarians belive that an individual is free to do whatever they want to/with themselves as long as it doesn't harm anybody else.

I can't think of any tax that is dumber than income tax. Taxes are meant to persuade people to do less of the thing being taxed. A disincentive. The harder you work, the more you pay? #######! There is a reason you pay sales tax in restaurants but not on groceries. There is a reason we have a cigarette tax but not a celery tax. A booze tax but not a water tax.

Booyah, do you somehow think that the USA doesn't have parks and swimming pools and sports facilities and sidewalks?

I don't have a source for the Manitoba nursing situation. That story broke about 10 years ago. What that says is that Canada is losing it's new nurses while the USA is gaining. 60 Minutes did a story about poor countries losing their nurses to the US as well, and how poor countries are left with very little in the way of nurses. It's a phenominon called "brain drain."

As for why libertarians aren't voted in more often? It's because people are bribed with their own money. Always wanting something for nothing. Another's state sucking money from the Federal government is pork. BUt when that money comes to a home state, it's job creating and bringing the money back. Republicans promise low tax and freedom and then deficit spend and impede. Democrats at least say they will tax you and give you something for it. But the tax is always on somebody else. Never you. Libertarians don't believe in giving away stuff at all. The perfect example is illegals who get free health care. That's a federal rule that you can't be turned away even if you're illegal. That rule would dissappear with libertarians. There would be no earned income credit. We wasted 700 billion dollars in stimulus that did little to stem the tide of unemployment. For 1 trillion we could have simply not had Federal income taxes on anybody! When you do that, there is no fraud or diverted funds. People would have been encouraged to work more. Save more. Everybody benefits under libertarianism. Under Repubs, the rich get a tax break. Under Democrats the rich get taxed (which gets passed on to us). Under libertarians, it's equal no matter where you are in the spectrum. We can debate income taxes in another thread.

Getting back to health care. The biggest cause of inflated health insurance costs is because of the employer provided health care situation. That started during World War II when the US government instituted wage and price freezes. Employers decided a way to give more benefits to workers was to provide them with health care insurance. It was cheap back then. And as we all know, employers can write off the entire amount of your insurance from their taxes. But you can't do that. You can only write off anything above 7.5% of your gross income while at the same time giving up your standard deduction. A company that gives a lowe wage and higher health insurance plan wins twice because they also have to pay less FICA on your behalf too. So we get a situation where employers would rather spend more on health care than they would on wages. Employees aren't involved with their health care plan or premiums other than a $10 co-pay once in awhile. So they're encouraged to use it more often than if they were self insured with their own plan. small business loses because they have a smaller pool than say Sears and General Motors and thus pay more per worker. And the cost of health insurance goes up year after year. Now we're at the point where companies can't afford the coverage anymore.

Vermont is very libertarian, sorry. I live here, so I kind of notice. I was born and raised in west Texas and can draw comparisons. We have a Republican Governor (4 terms). Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat, he is Independent. Bernie Sanders was never a Democrat, I have know him personally for several years. I do not agree with him on a lot of issues. He says if I ever do, I should check myself into a mental institution. Alla knows him and he has met our sons and has been very kind and welcoming to them. he invited Sergey and I up to the statehouse this summer when Sergey arrived on his K-2 to follow and welcomed Sergey and introduced him to Governor Douglas and took him on a tour of the Vermont capital (Sanders used to be a state representative also and former Burlington mayor) . Bernie was in Montpelier for a day of meetings with the public on health care reform. I am happy to say I can walk into his office on Church Street any time and feel welcomed. Likewise Leahy, (definitely a Democrat) I do not agree with him on many issues, but I can honestly say the man does a good job for Vermonters. I have met with people in his office several times this month already. Really great people. Our state population would barely make a good sized Houston suburb, so it is much easier to contact either of our Senators. 51% of registered voters are independent, not Democrat. There are 4 popular and influential parties in our legslature and our statues couldn't be more from the libertarian playbook if Ayn Rand wrote them. Howard Dean, a Democrat, is one of the strongest supporters of firearms owners rights. Vermont is libertarian in their beliefs and actions and legislation, if not in their elected officials.

There is a group of people that want Vermont to seceed, but not to Join New Hampshire, to be independent. Vermont, like Texas, was an independent Republic prior to joining the US as the 14th state. new Hampshire is also libertarian and so is Maine. The deep northeast, as they say, is truly a very hardy and independent bunch of people. What does it mean?

Vermont has gay marriage, the first state to do it by legislation, not court order. Vermont allows anyone over age 18 to carry concealed handguns, no permit required. There are virtually no gun laws in Vermont. Federal laws only. Vermont will not ban the use of cell phones in cars. There is no law against being naked anywhere. Marijuana is legal for medicinal use. If you walked down main street in Burlington smoking a joint and throwing rocks through windows...you would get arrested. For throwing rocks through windows. Basically, if you do not hurt someone else, it is legal. environmental laws are strong, did you know Libertarians are strong environmentally, but not for phony science and BS man made global warming. We are anti-war but have the highest per capita number of soldiers in the US military. We have had the highest casualties, per capita, of any state in every war since WW2. The 10th Mountain Division is based in New York, but trains right here outside Burlington on Mt. Mansfield. The Green Mountain Boys are an elite fighting force and have been since the days of Ethan Allen. The Vermont Air Guard was selected to receive the newest F-35 fighter planes. Our airport is shared with the Air Guard. Canada also trains troops at Mt. Mansfield with the 10th Mountain. Vermonters, like it or not, will do their part.

We have state provided health care. All Vermonters are covered by health Inusrance unless they choose not to be, no one is left out because they cannot pay for it. we are not required to use the system. employers MUSt provide insurance or pay into the state system to cover their employees. It is private insurance, there are two opitons, though really both have the same coverage and it is pretty good actually. we have Fletcher Allen Heath Care, in Association with the University of Vermont. Wonderful health provider and they will pay for any uncovered medical expense for any Vermonter through and endowment. There is no reason a Vermonter ever need pay an out of pocket expense if they are unable to for lack of work etc. It is not "medicaid". It is a private endowment for people that cannot afford their co-pays, etc.

great place to live. Clean, beautiful, friendly, exceedingly safe (there are no bad neighborhoods) very low crime. Somewhat cold in the winter though. Al Gore had us hopeful for Global warming, but that turned out to be a moneymaker for him only...still cold in Vermont.

[Ali G. 37]

Texanadian: Looks like Australia is paying in prices per litre. Gotta multiply that by 3.78 to get a US gallon price. You guys were paying more than we were during the big gas price hike of 2008. Maybe Australia should build some more sidewalks so people can walk and bicycle places instead.

You realize that was an example regarding the gas price, I wasn't speaking literally about gas prices.

Nonetheless, the gas price actually has a good $1 federal levy on it per gallon (in equivalent) over there, which allows them to have such great new roads. They basically pool their taxes together, with those who use the roads most paying more, and build new and well maintained roads throughout the country; including through the desert. Without such taxes, they'd have no roads. With lower gas taxes, they'd have roads that are as poorly maintained as those here.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Booyah

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Actually now that I think about it, most of Europe smoke like chimneys and drink like fishes compared to the USA. Why would we want to be more like them?

But they live longer. seems like the problem is speaking English!

The Founding Fathers of this country were influenced by the French Revolution and from there, there's a long list of examples where one country influenced another towards progress. The fact that we are the only industrialized nation that doesn't have universal health care should make us stand up and take notice. Particularly given that health care costs are an increasing part of our GDP. It stands at 16% of the GDP, second only to East Timor.

So just what countries do we want to aspire to? East Timor or Western Europe when it comes to health care?

I don't want to be like anyone else.

[Ali G. 37]

But they live longer. seems like the problem is speaking English!

I don't want to be like anyone else.

I never put you for one of those E for effort kind of guys, since in 2010, that is all the US health care system gets as a grade.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Booyah

[DEDixon 39]

if you have netflix, watch "FOOD INC."

you will be sick by the end of it.

[mawilson 2,133]

Particularly given that health care costs are an increasing part of our GDP. It stands at 16% of the GDP, second only to East Timor.

Why is that a bad thing, or even significant?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Tax rates alone are not the only yardstick for how a state feels politically. Are we taxed heavily here? You betcha. I do not disagree with the tax issue (believe me, I don't) but that does not make us any less libertarian in our beliefs of "live and let live"

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I never put you for one of those E for effort kind of guys, since in 2010, that is all the US health care system gets as a grade.

I'll give 'em an "A" for my bypass surgery within a few hours of discovering the need for it. They did a damn good job at it too. Painful to be sure but hey, what should I expect? A month later I was back to pretty normal activity and now, nearly 3 months later I feel better than I have in years. I would be zooming down the slopes tomorrow with Pasha but the doctor says not until next year, so I will sit in the lodge and read again or walk some of the trails around the lodge.. School is out this week, so lots of skiing ahead. someone's got to do it.