America's No. 1 Killer: Cardiovascular Disease. How Americanized do you really want to become?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It also has to do with making financial choices that make no sense and trying to justify them for ideological reasons. Most Americans simply do not have vast reserves of cash just laying around to pay for out of pocket healthcare costs.

I wonder what you wouild do if Dr's suddenly decided that they would refuse to operate on anyone who made 'poor lifestyle choices'. Would that be unreasonable?

Clean your own damned heart pipes!

[Revenesque 2]

Your belief is 100% wrong. It doesn't matter how much you believe something is true. It either is, or it isn't. In this instance no Dr would begin to state that general health is 80% lifestyle. Some diseases are 100% outside your control, some have a life style componant and it's very much debateable how much of a componant lifestyle is in any given health problem.

Oh, I'm very aware my belief is not going to apply to every individual. That's why I said "broadly speaking" and "IMHO". Whether you think I'm wrong or right does not matter--it's my opinion. But I alreay acknowledged that there is a component that is out of one's control, and if one does not want to bear that risk, get health insurance.

Essentially these are the two fallacies in the argument. One that opting out of buying health insurance has no negative impact on others within the society you inhabit and second that good health is largely within one's own control.

Hypothetically speaking, if I opt out of buying health insurance, I am one less person contributing to the insurance company's revenue base. The impact is that the insurance company, in order to pay out claims, might have to raise premiums on everyone else. Yes, I can see how that is a negative impact. However, the insurance company have many avenues to fix this: they can discourage claims by promoting health awareness, raise restrictions on claims or claims payout, drop policy holders with pre-existing conditions, improve their bargaining power with other health players (hospitals, medical professionals, pharmaceuticals, etc), etc. That's the reality for capitalistic profit-seeking health players.

Personally, I believe healthcare should be a right, not a privilege and I like Canada's universal healthcare model. I think it works for most people--the most good for the most people. For those who want better health care, and have money to pay for it, no one from the universal health care is preventing them from going to the US to get what they perceive is better care. Voila, the best of both worlds.

For individual folks not buying insurance, they bear ALL the financial and health risk. For those who are able to but chose not to, power to them. I shall not feel guilty for them if they come across a misfortune. For those who want healthcare but can't afford it, I do have compassion.

[Revenesque 2]

Obama says it will. Booyah says it will Cleo says it will, by 50%. You guys really need to get your ####### straight, is there anyone that can parrot the same thing?

In theory, the presence of the insurance industry does introduce efficiecy and costs for healthcare users while promote business for hospitals, medical professionals and support industry, and pharmaceuticals. Government gave the insurance industry a boost by allowing employers to write their health care premiums off to improve the labour force. Everyone now has an interest in maintaining the status quo. So it makes sense to me that isolating one player (the insurance industry or the government) will not fix the problem because it's only one cog in the system.

The solution to reduce healthcare for most folks has to address each of these players. Here's my stab at it:

1) Increase the revenue base of insurance companies--either by regulation (make health care insurance mandatory) or the government nationalizes healthcare

2) reduce labor costs of medicare frontline and support professionals by encouraging supply of these labor

3) reduce demand for brand names of medicines and promote use of generic brands

4) Government (or insurance companies) to provide incentives or reward program to reward healthy behaviors;

5) Do a health awareness campaign. Improve or make available nutrition information on food, restaurant, etc.

There's lots of debate on each point I'm sure, but my point here is that ALL the cogs of the healtcare system must be addressed to bring down the costs for everyone.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

No, I know you don't get it. Quite frankly you also don't get why it's silly in the extreme to say something like 'they don't like that I am not dependent' with the implication hanging in the air that anyone that disagrees with you is. Inane. You are a member of society, your decisions impact others like it or not for good and for bad.

I wonder what you wouild do if Dr's suddenly decided that they would refuse to operate on anyone who made 'poor lifestyle choices'. Would that be unreasonable?

Yet the government proposes the same thing and it is OK. Doctors at least have a financial incentive not to do that (yeah, like Thoracic surgeons would have a job anymore) Your contention is ludicrous. Paying one's own bills is not a burden to anyone else.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Oh, I'm very aware my belief is not going to apply to every individual. That's why I said "broadly speaking" and "IMHO". Whether you think I'm wrong or right does not matter--it's my opinion. But I alreay acknowledged that there is a component that is out of one's control, and if one does not want to bear that risk, get health insurance.

Hypothetically speaking, if I opt out of buying health insurance, I am one less person contributing to the insurance company's revenue base. The impact is that the insurance company, in order to pay out claims, might have to raise premiums on everyone else. Yes, I can see how that is a negative impact. However, the insurance company have many avenues to fix this: they can discourage claims by promoting health awareness, raise restrictions on claims or claims payout, drop policy holders with pre-existing conditions, improve their bargaining power with other health players (hospitals, medical professionals, pharmaceuticals, etc), etc. That's the reality for capitalistic profit-seeking health players.

Personally, I believe healthcare should be a right, not a privilege and I like Canada's universal healthcare model. I think it works for most people--the most good for the most people. For those who want better health care, and have money to pay for it, no one from the universal health care is preventing them from going to the US to get what they perceive is better care. Voila, the best of both worlds.

For individual folks not buying insurance, they bear ALL the financial and health risk. For those who are able to but chose not to, power to them. I shall not feel guilty for them if they come across a misfortune. For those who want healthcare but can't afford it, I do have compassion.

By dropping out, you also reduce their risk. They will not have to pay out claims to you. No insurance company had to pay $360,000 for my surgery, which is what they would have paid. Would you like to be in that risk pool Cleo? Which company do you think would have collected $360,000 from me in premiums. Sorry but my absence from the risk pool just saved YOU a lot of money and cost me BIG TIME. Hey, I took the risk and I had the lifestyle...no regrets. I am damn glad to be alive, it gets better from there. My opting out reduces the insurance companies risk TWICE as much as it reduces mine. If this were true then someone that quit a job or elected to use a spouses insurance is also a "leech" even more so than I am because they actually get benefits, I don't.

Madame Cleo is a knee jerk liberal. She has no problem with my paying my own expenses. she has a problem that they give me a 50% discount...but I didn't ask for that and anyone can get it. On the other hand, Madame Cleo pays far less for health care than I do, yet I am not upset to be subsidizing her with my cash. My insulin costs $93 for a 10ml vial. she would probaly have a $10 co-pay...but I am a burden on her? Why do the hosptials reduce the cash price? Cretainly you do not beleieve theya re giving away their profits to cash customers? Must be a reason. I didn't know that so it wasn't part of my decision to be self insured. My paying HALF (as she says) saved an insurance company paying ALL.

You're welcome.

[Texanadian 10]

Sheesh. This thread is nuts.....

You all need to stop picking on Gary. Health care offers discounts in the US to both insured and uninsured. Look at an MRI bill. It will read $4,000. But an insurance company will pay $800 and the bill will be paid in full. If you can pay the full amount in cash, you too can get that discount. If you don't have the cash or insurance, you'll be on the hook for the full amount. At least you'll get 0% interest on it for however long it takes. In network offers HUGE discounts compared to out of network. Things that cost $30,000 out of network will be $5,000 in network. So the notion that somehow Gary didn't pay the full amount because he paid in cash is outrageous. If anything, it's the people who do have insurance and have cancer, heart attacks, etc. They're the ones raising the cost of insurance to others. This is why governments want to control how you live in order to "save money."

I'm from Canada, so I know all about universal health insurance. What's good in Canada is bad in the USA. But what's good in the USA is bad in Canada. The USA doesn't have nursing shortages because it can pay them huge amounts of money to move to the US. An ENTIRE graduating class of nurses in Manitoba Canada moved to the US a couple years ago.

I work in the largest medical center in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Medical_Center (check it out)....The hospitals there are constantly rated the best in all sorts of medical specialties. Best cancer hospital is right there. The jobs have great benefits plans. If you're unlucky enough to get sick, this is where you'd want to go. But there was nothing that comes close to this in Canada.

The trouble is regulating and taxing people on their health and their foods is how do you do it? BMI won't work. By that notion, Arnold Swartzenegger and "The Rock" are morbidly obese (6'2" and 275 lbs). I'm 6'4" and BMI says I should be around 175 to 200 lbs. Can't base it on calories or fat. Because that goes against everything that Atkins praises. They recommend a diet high in fat and low in carbohydrates. Surprisingly enough Atkins people lose lots of weight. And it's a god send for people with diabetes. Food rich in fat has more flavour and fills you up. So you can actually eat more calories than other diets and still lose more weight (metabolic advantage of Atkins)......On the flip side, the traditional low calorie low fat high carbohydrate diets are the 180° opposite. You starve. You're hungry. The food is bland. But what do the French eat? Atkins style food. Rich creams and butter.

Of course the recommended food choices change every couple of years. In the old days, everybody ate butter and ** milk (whole milk in the US) This was back in the 70's when everybody was thin. Then we were supposed to eat margarine instead. Then it was margarine lite. Turns out everything that is "lite" has higher carbs and lower fat. Hence why Atkins recommends against eating "lite" food. We all switched from regular pop to diet pop. But now they say that the ingredients in diet pop aren't good for you. On the other hand, the amount of sugar in diet pop (zero) is guaranteed to be better than the cup of sugar that comes in regular pop.

Booyah says that the rest of the world shakes their head at how the USA lives and wants to be. But the whole idea of the USA was to get away from the cradle to grave nanny state that other countries have. When I lived in Canada, a 6 pack of good quality beer like Stella Artois or Heinekin was $14-15. Here? About $7-8. Texas hasn't raised it's alcohol tax since 1984. In 2006, they raised the price of a carton of cigs here by $10. So they went from being $25/carton to $35/carton. The cigarette tax hadn't been raised since 1991 (15 years ago). When I lived in Canada, they raised the cigarette tax seemingly every 6 months. A carton was around $90 when I moved away. The USA doesn't want to have it where we pay $7/gallon for gas like in Europe. Where people live in tiny homes that cost a fortune. I want a high powered gasoline car that costs me a modest amount to buy. Not some 4 cylinder diesel car the size of an Austin Mini.

The Germans drink crazy sums of beer compared to Americans. Should that be taxed higher? Heck, you can buy beer at McDonalds in Germany. (Although I will admit that the drive thru Margarita places here in Texas were a bit surprising to see to somebody like myself)

Vegetables.....I will agree that it's nice to get organic vegetables. But they're damned expensive. It DOES cost more to make organic vegetables than it does non-organic. The organic is harder to grow in huge farms. More susceptible to rotting faster. Bugs eat it more often. Unfortunately a lot of the produce in the stores here in Texas is from Mexico. Where growing standards are so so. Australia has the benefit of being far far away from other countries. So there isn't as much foreign competition. All produce is going to be local there.

Even the healthiest people aren't guaranteed anything. Mr Rogers (TV show host) never smoked, never drank, maintained a body weight of 143 lbs for decades. He died in his 70's from cancer. Meanwhile the oldest person in the world died at 122 years old. She quit smoking at age 117. But took up the habit again at age 118. (She was French if it matters)

All this debate about using public services like roads and water is nonsence. How are you going to leave your home and go anywhere without using a road? Very few people can generate enough electricity to run their entire home nevermind power an electric car too. And those batteries that are in electric cars create quite the waste disposal when they die. There was an article out last year about how a Hummer pollutes less than a Hybrid.

Lastly, Libertarianism is a great way to be. Personal freedom, personal responsibility. What more could you want? Libertarians are NOT in favour of paying to take care of people who have 8 children and are on welfare. Welfare should be like the way it was in the old days where you went down to city hall and gave your story as to how you got into trouble and how you're going to get out. Now a days, it's an entitlement. Fill out the form and collect your money. Any thought of reducing welfare (nevermind eliminating it) would be cruel to the poor. I thought it was interesting that in this red state of Texas, one of the reasons they never want to raise the cigarette tax is that it would be hard on the poor.

Shani682 sounds like a Republican. Telling people she's for personal responsibility...and then telling people how to run their lives. That her way is better than your way. Her way is better for her. Maybe it's better for me. Maybe it's not. But it's not her choice for me. Much like my choice shouldn't be made for her.

It doesn't matter what we do as a society. There will always be a #1 cause of death. No way around it. The USA must be doing something right. They do win the most Olympic medals at all the games. State health varies. Colorado is incredibly healthy. Mississippi? Bottom of the barrel. The absolute worst thing for Social Security would be if everybody magically got healthy all of a sudden. People need to die for it to be solvent. A grim thought, but the truth.

[Ali G. 37]

Perhaos you missed my earlier post. No one asked for my ability to pay until after the surgery, I agree insurance companies increase costs. If the same surgery costs 80% less in Canada or UK because of insurance companies, NOT because of government, then I got ripped off paying 50% of the bill!!!!! Please tell Madame Cleo. More disjointed liberal excuses. Can you guys at least get your ####### straight and stop contradicting each other?

Actually, government just sets artificial prices for services they cannot provide, (government csannot provide healthcare either, they can only pay for it) Like selling gas for 25 cents per gallon...but only when you are out of gas. Canadians roll across the border every day to pay our higher prices here so they can actually GET the medical care they need.

You totally lost me there. What does the same procedure costing less in another country have to do with Cleo or insurance? Since the middleman is not a factor and the services are provided at cost price, the services costs much less to administer overseas.

Thanks for your example, as I can build on it further. What is happening here is that the gas cost 45 cents per gallon to purchase wholesale. Once the middleman and every other stakeholder adds their cut, it ends up being billed to the end user for $2.45 a gallon. Whereas, the same gallon is sold for 55 cents in Aus; which is just enough to cover all of the costs.

[Revenesque 2]

For individual folks not buying insurance, they bear ALL the financial and health risk. For those who are able to but chose not to, power to them. I shall not feel guilty for them if they come across a misfortune. For those who want healthcare but can't afford it, I do have compassion.

Following up my point here, for Gary as an INDIVIDUAL, who clearly have $178,000 to pay for his medical costs, have the TIME to research the process and bargain his costs down to 50%, he's entitled to his opinion. Gary, I wish you good health going forward, and hope bad luck doesn't land you in the poor house so you end up using county hospital, which is funded by taxpayers. I'd hate to see someone like you humble like that.

MOST people who DON'T have that kind of money nor the knowledge or time to reduce their medical costs. I don't know ANYONE who has that kind of money lying around, especially after their house values and investment went down and they're afraid of losing their job (or working extra hours) in this recession. Only 68% of Americans own their own home (http://www.americanhomeowners.org/AHF/Home...e/June06_HB.htm) and the national medium net worth of Americans is $86,000 (http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/retiremen...n_wealth_a1.asp). As you can see, it only takes one medical crisis to put an average American into bankruptcy.

To tell most American that they should be financially responsible for their own healthcare, be able to have the expertise and time to fight through the transparency and persuade the medical institutions why they can't pay 100% of the bills--it's not workable a workable solution. Works for Gary, but not for most Americans.

[Ali G. 37]

To the libertarians, one guess how foreign governments help keep their costs down? Hint: think about one of your obvious pet peeves regarding government. Yes, they initiate health initiatives to get people to eat healthy. Furthermore, our cities are modern and redesigned around allowing people to be active and healthy. They have sidewalks, parks, community sports centers etc, which help people stay fit. It's also why a single cigarette pack now costs over $11 in Aus.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Booyah

[Ali G. 37]

I am a libertarian. Vermont is a libertarian state, not a liberal state. Liberal states do not allow anyone over 18 to carry concealed handguns with out a permit.

Was it Vermont that wanted to secede from America?

Vermont is also the state where our Visas are processed, the stage of the process where it takes 2 months for someone to punch a bloody hole through a form.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Booyah

[Peikko 1,575]

By dropping out, you also reduce their risk. They will not have to pay out claims to you. No insurance company had to pay $360,000 for my surgery, which is what they would have paid. Would you like to be in that risk pool Cleo? Which company do you think would have collected $360,000 from me in premiums. Sorry but my absence from the risk pool just saved YOU a lot of money and cost me BIG TIME. Hey, I took the risk and I had the lifestyle...no regrets. I am damn glad to be alive, it gets better from there. My opting out reduces the insurance companies risk TWICE as much as it reduces mine. If this were true then someone that quit a job or elected to use a spouses insurance is also a "leech" even more so than I am because they actually get benefits, I don't.

Madame Cleo is a knee jerk liberal. She has no problem with my paying my own expenses. she has a problem that they give me a 50% discount...but I didn't ask for that and anyone can get it. On the other hand, Madame Cleo pays far less for health care than I do, yet I am not upset to be subsidizing her with my cash. My insulin costs $93 for a 10ml vial. she would probaly have a $10 co-pay...but I am a burden on her? Why do the hosptials reduce the cash price? Cretainly you do not beleieve theya re giving away their profits to cash customers? Must be a reason. I didn't know that so it wasn't part of my decision to be self insured. My paying HALF (as she says) saved an insurance company paying ALL.

You're welcome.

I don't give a fig what you do or don't pay on a personal level, my point was about collective risk and responsiblity. I really don't know why that's so difficult for you to grasp. Perhaps it's because you prefer to address what you think I must believe because I am a 'knee jerk liberal' rather than what I am actually posting?

[Ali G. 37]

I don't give a fig what you do or don't pay on a personal level, my point was about collective risk and responsiblity. I really don't know why that's so difficult for you to grasp. Perhaps it's because you prefer to address what you think I must believe because I am a 'knee jerk liberal' rather than what I am actually posting?

As I said, Vermont is the state that wants to secede from the union, which says a lot about the ideology over there. I'm seriously not giving ####### to Gary but it does say something about his beliefs.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Booyah

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The USA doesn't have nursing shortages because it can pay them huge amounts of money to move to the US. An ENTIRE graduating class of nurses in Manitoba Canada moved to the US a couple years ago.

Can you cite a source on that? Foreign nurses coming here to the states have to pass the board exams here before they can be licensed to practice and I have yet to hear any hospital offering to sponsor foreign nurses to come here as of late. If that is happening though, would that not indicate a shortage here of RN's? As for pay scale, the U.S. and Canada pay RN's about the same. I have two sisters-in-law that are RN's in Ireland and their pay is also comparable to the U.S., and Ireland has national health care.

Lastly, Libertarianism is a great way to be. Personal freedom, personal responsibility. What more could you want? Libertarians are NOT in favour of paying to take care of people who have 8 children and are on welfare. Welfare should be like the way it was in the old days where you went down to city hall and gave your story as to how you got into trouble and how you're going to get out. Now a days, it's an entitlement. Fill out the form and collect your money. Any thought of reducing welfare (nevermind eliminating it) would be cruel to the poor. I thought it was interesting that in this red state of Texas, one of the reasons they never want to raise the cigarette tax is that it would be hard on the poor.

There are different levels of Libertarianism, but the fundamental philosophy can never be applied in real world situations. Ayn Rand's, Atlas Shrugged, has created a cult of ideology that is pure fantasy, much like the Scientologists born from L. Ron Hubbard's, Dianetics. It is given that everyone aspires for personal freedom and with that, personal responsibility. The question is to what degree and level can that work in society? Your freedom ends where my freedom begins. I know it's a long debated issue that I have engaged with different Libertarians over the years. The whole notion that taxation is enforcement (slavery) is just silly nonsense.

[Peikko 1,575]

it is quite funny:

Headline - Heart attacks main cause of death among Americans - look at that, we can't improve our health care system because more Americans making poor lifestyle choices will get cheap health care paid for us poor sops that are making good health choices and that's totally irresponsible, people should pay for their bad choices - but you are paying for these people as things stand - but I don't, because I don't pay for health insurance, I pay out of pocket - but you do, just because you pay your bill out of pocket, doesn't mean you are not benefitting from the choices others have made to buy health insurance - I don't care, I just want to be able to pay my bills and not be called dependant and I certainly do not want to have to think about anyone else besides, if I buy health insurance the government will tell me what to do, and I don't want the government to run my life, if I want to die from a heart attack, that's my choice!"

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]