America's No. 1 Killer: Cardiovascular Disease. How Americanized do you really want to become?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

If we are going to be 'fair' the problem is not quite that simple.

Health care costs are rising because of a number of factors, not least there are more treatments available for more diseases than ever before. However, the general underlying health of the population, the necessity to derive a profit from the system and the need to ascribe 'blame' in cases of accident all contribute to rising costs. I am sure there are other factors as well.

PM Booyah and Stephen, get your excuses sorted out and come back later to post. Booyah says I overpaid by 30%. I want my money back.

[Peikko 1,575]

The sytem we have gives me complete freedom...and responsibility. I like it. I am not complaining. I made bad health choices years ago...diet, smoking, my diabetes is type 2...home grown by bad habits. I paid for it. I continue to pay for it. I wish I had the cash for the surgery to buy one of the kids a nice house. Do YOU want to pay for it so I can get my money back and buy my kid a house? SHOULD you pay for it so I can buy my kid a house...cash? If we make a law for the government to pay for health care and then exclude people who smoke or eat fatty stuff (OMG you do not even want to know how many Big Macs I ate in my life!) what good does that do? Who pays for that?

You seem upset I pay for it myself but then say I wouldn;t be penalized (when I should be) and then say there will be laws to not cover people that eat bad stuff or smoke...I am so confused!

Why? It's not that difficult, good health care should be affordable to everyone. I do not see the need to get into this penalize for bad choices #######, particularly when no Dr can pinpoint the exact reasons why one person gets sick from making a choice when someone else does not. Health is not that simple. Eating a Big Mac does not cause heart disease. Just because you chose to eat ####### food, does not mean that is the reason you have bad health now, it could be a contributing factor, but it's not possible to state with any certainty that that is the only cause.

I am not upset or not upset about your particular circumstances, they are not really relevant in the debate as to the best way to provide for affordable health care for everyone. The only relevance it has is that you seem to believe that opting out is a legitimate choice if you pay your bills when you get sick. I am trying to show you, that in the big picture, you are actually acting irresponsibly not only on a personal level, but on a societal level as well, and that everyone in the society you live in is effected by your choices, good or bad, regardless of your ability to pay any bills that you are presented with.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[one...two...tree 2,762]

afaik paid for by local taxes

i'm sure you've heard of tuition costs.

Currently, 8.3 percent of school funding comes from Federal tax dollars. But either source, it comes from government, local, state or federal. I don't think that jives with the anarcho-capitalist viewpoint that Gary takes regarding ones reliance on government in any capacity.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Galt's gallstones

[Peikko 1,575]

PM Booyah and Stephen, get your excuses sorted out and come back later to post. Booyah says I overpaid by 30%. I want my money back.

Don't be silly. There are a lot of factors involved but the bottom line is, unless everyone pays into the system, everyone who pays into the system will be paying more for their health care than they should be, and all those who don't are collectively not paying enough.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[JimandChristy 1,689]

Perhaos you missed my earlier post. No one asked for my ability to pay until after the surgery, I agree insurance companies increase costs. If the same surgery costs 80% less in Canada or UK because of insurance companies, NOT because of government, then I got ripped off paying 50% of the bill!!!!! Please tell Madame Cleo. More disjointed liberal excuses. Can you guys at least get your ####### straight and stop contradicting each other?

Actually, government just sets artificial prices for services they cannot provide, (government csannot provide healthcare either, they can only pay for it) Like selling gas for 25 cents per gallon...but only when you are out of gas. Canadians roll across the border every day to pay our higher prices here so they can actually GET the medical care they need.

I bet far more Americans roll across the border to Canada for healthcare.

[Revenesque 2]

How is it conceit to pay for one's own medical bills? How does my doing so make anything worse for you? Or Madame Cleo? That contention is just ludicrous. That somehow writing a check for my surgery was "sponging off" others?

what is offensive about someone paying their own medical bills?

If Gary wants to be 100% responsible for his own medical bills and not pay insurance, let him--he is fully aware of the risk too.

Broadly speaking, health in IMHO is 80% lifestyle, while 20% is outside of your control--e.g. environmental pollutants, poor genetics, accidents, etc. I'm conservative with financial planning. 20% to me is too big of a risk so I get insurance to mitigate that so I can sleep better at night. For Gary, he wants to 100% of the risk--and so long as he doesn't impact my insurance premiums, I say more power to him.

On a side note, I just became an FB fan of "Your dissing Canada? I can't hear your over my health care benefits!"

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If Gary wants to be 100% responsible for his own medical bills and not pay insurance, let him--he is fully aware of the risk too.

Broadly speaking, health in IMHO is 80% lifestyle, while 20% is outside of your control--e.g. environmental pollutants, poor genetics, accidents, etc. I'm conservative with financial planning. 20% to me is too big of a risk so I get insurance to mitigate that so I can sleep better at night. For Gary, he wants to 100% of the risk--and so long as he doesn't impact my insurance premiums, I say more power to him.

On a side note, I just became an FB fan of "Your dissing Canada? I can't hear your over my health care benefits!"

But it kinda does...

[Peikko 1,575]

Your belief is 100% wrong. It doesn't matter how much you believe something is true. It either is, or it isn't. In this instance no Dr would begin to state that general health is 80% lifestyle. Some diseases are 100% outside your control, some have a life style componant and it's very much debateable how much of a componant lifestyle is in any given health problem.

But it kinda does...

It very much does. Costs and bills are not interchangeable.

Essentially these are the two fallacies in the argument. One that opting out of buying health insurance has no negative impact on others within the society you inhabit and second that good health is largely within one's own control.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I bet far more Americans roll across the border to Canada for healthcare.

Your thought isn't even a possibility.

There are 2 places to get MRIs in Montreal, (population 2 million) there are 4 in Burlington Vermont. (population 50,000) If anything close to what you say is true there would be far more medical facilities available in canada than there is here, but such is not the case. Immediately south of the border, in rural Northern Vermont and New York are THREE very large medical centers filled with cars with Quebec license plates. There are no hosptials immmediately north of the border all the way to the south shore of Montreal, despite a much larger population within easy driving distance. There ARE a number of Americans that go to Canadian pharmacies to get their prescriptions filled. I also buy some OTC medications there, some which are uavailable here OTC and most seem a bit cheaper, but not much (I Pay cash on either side of the border, so I can easily compare) In addition to the Canadians that come here just to pay cash, the government has agreements with area providers to provide care under the National Health Plan for people waiting more than one year for a needed medical procedure. In which case, the government pays for that.

The Premier of Newfoundland just recently scheduled his needed heart surgery...in the United States.

[Revenesque 2]

A surgery wouldn't cost $178k if government and insurance companies didn't drive up costs of healthcare.

Supply/demand, bro.

It's not as easy as that--Hospital administration, medical profession and support industry, pharmaceutical industry all have a share in driving the costs of healthcare. isolating insurance companies or gov't will not drive healthcare costs down.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Currently, 8.3 percent of school funding comes from Federal tax dollars. But either source, it comes from government, local, state or federal. I don't think that jives with the anarcho-capitalist viewpoint that Gary takes regarding ones reliance on government in any capacity.

I strongly support government fundsing of education and even a requirement of education through at least 4 years of college. If that is not libertarian, or anarcho-capitalist, or whatver, I do not care. If we can require education to age 16, we can require it to age 22.

Federal tax dollars come from ME, do not be silly. WE pay for all of it. I prefer to keep such things out of the FEDs hands, thank you. They can just give the money back and let me pay it dorect to my local school district and I will be happy.

It's not as easy as that--Hospital administration, medical profession and support industry, pharmaceutical industry all have a share in driving the costs of healthcare. isolating insurance companies or gov't will not drive healthcare costs down.

Obama says it will. Booyah says it will Cleo says it will, by 50%. You guys really need to get your ####### straight, is there anyone that can parrot the same thing?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

If Gary wants to be 100% responsible for his own medical bills and not pay insurance, let him--he is fully aware of the risk too.

Broadly speaking, health in IMHO is 80% lifestyle, while 20% is outside of your control--e.g. environmental pollutants, poor genetics, accidents, etc. I'm conservative with financial planning. 20% to me is too big of a risk so I get insurance to mitigate that so I can sleep better at night. For Gary, he wants to 100% of the risk--and so long as he doesn't impact my insurance premiums, I say more power to him.

On a side note, I just became an FB fan of "Your dissing Canada? I can't hear your over my health care benefits!"

Thanks. They are just upset I am not dependent. And I should feel guilty about it.

Canadians are welcome to their health care benefits.

[Peikko 1,575]

Thanks. They are just upset I am not dependent. And I should feel guilty about it.

Canadians are welcome to their health care benefits.

Thus brilliantly ullustrating that you do not understand the arguments presented to you. I am not upset about your personal choices at all nor do I do want you to feel guilty about them. However, you believe that your choices have no negative effect on others, and even if they do, all you have to do is pay your bills and those negative effects are null and void. That's cloud cuckoo land and from the point of view of society, irresponsible.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Thus brilliantly ullustrating that you do not understand the arguments presented to you. I am not upset about your personal choices at all nor do I do want you to feel guilty about them. However, you believe that your choices have no negative effect on others, and even if they do, all you have to do is pay your bills and those negative effects are null and void. That's cloud cuckoo land and from the point of view of society, irresponsible.

I certainly don't understand your argument. neither do any of your, ahem, contemporaries.

[Peikko 1,575]

I certainly don't understand your argument. neither do any of your, ahem, contemporaries.

No, I know you don't get it. Quite frankly you also don't get why it's silly in the extreme to say something like 'they don't like that I am not dependent' with the implication hanging in the air that anyone that disagrees with you is. Inane. You are a member of society, your decisions impact others like it or not for good and for bad.

I wonder what you wouild do if Dr's suddenly decided that they would refuse to operate on anyone who made 'poor lifestyle choices'. Would that be unreasonable?