America's No. 1 Killer: Cardiovascular Disease. How Americanized do you really want to become?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Feel better now? I never said any of those things you assin to me. Can anyone debate the issue without making things up? I am a taxpayer stephan, definitley not a leech. There is even a "911 surcharge" on my phone bill. I pay for that also.

I know I am not a leech despite what Madame Cleo says

LOL...my point is, we've all relied on the government for help in some form or fashion throughout our lives. I'm going to guess your parents sent you to a public school and that you attended a public college or university, all of which are made possible through government subsidies. Not to mention the local law enforcement, fire and emergency services, the library you checked books out, the underground plumbing that allowed your family to enjoy running water and a sewage system to neatly get rid of your bodily waste. Our system works in that something like a sewage system, which take millions of dollars in tax money to build, will benefit thousands for years to come. It would futile to try and prove that you've paid your fair share of every public system that you or your family have benefited from. Some have paid more than others. The old widow who lives on her social security check and has her utility bill at an adjusted lower rate for low income people is not a leech either.

[Ban Hammer 13,469]

Goody, another baiting post. You're on a roll today Charles.

sorry to burst your bubble, but not everything is about you.

[Ali G. 37]

Some of the views here is why the libertarian approach is just not for me; or the majority of the civilized educated world.

The thought that each to their own jungle rules is the best approach is honestly laughable at best. Mention the third world who uses such practices and such real world examples are ignored. Mention the first world who is using the opposite approach, and it too is ignored.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Booyah

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Some of the views here is why the libertarian approach is just not for me; or the majority of the civilized educated world.

It honestly baffles me why so many embrace Libertarian ideology when it has no real world practical applications. Ayn Rand has created a cult of ideology that's as far out as L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics.

[Peikko 1,575]

I makes perfect sense.

You have said you do not want to pay for the bad choices made by others, just your own. That's not possible unless you do not live in society. You are the personification of how bad choices must be paid for by other people in your attitude to health insurance. No matter your reasons for not buying it in the first place, the effect is that you benefit from the effects of the fact that other people do buy health insurance. The economies of scale that made your heart surgery available to you at a price you could afford (if the bill was halved might I add) was only available to you because enough people who can't afford to pay for such surgeries out of pocket bought health insurance over the years for the cost of that surgery to fall to the levels it is at today. You seem to believe that simply paying the bill means you have now paid the price of your decision to opt out of the insurance system. I am telling you that you are totally wrong.

Worse, if you are to be believed, you don't even have the sense to modify your current behaviour in order to ensure as far as possible that responsible people don't pay for your bad choices in future. Fabulous.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Libertarianism is naïve and practically unworkable in most contexts.

[Peikko 1,575]

sorry to burst your bubble, but not everything is about you.

That's funny, I was under no illusion that it was. You can't recognize baiting or bigotry in your own posts but yet you qualify as a moderator. I find that quite bizarre.

[Ali G. 37]

It honestly baffles me why so many embrace Libertarian ideology when it has no real world practical applications. Ayn Rand has created a cult of ideology that's as far out as L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics.

I am still waiting on Matt to show me something that does not involve articles based on the opinion of Austrian nuts.

[Ban Hammer 13,469]

I'm going to guess your parents sent you to a public school

afaik paid for by local taxes

you attended a public college or university,

i'm sure you've heard of tuition costs.

local law enforcement, fire and emergency services, the library you checked books out,

local taxes

the underground plumbing that allowed your family to enjoy running water and a sewage system to neatly get rid of your bodily waste.

local taxes. or in my case, a rural water district and no sewage system as it's septic tank. in either case, supported by taxes or usage fee.

and while we're at it: electric - local taxes, or in my case, rural electric cooperative, supported by usage fees.

my local fire department - volunteer. no full timers. supported by donations and local taxes.

end result of the above: higher insurance costs from volunteer fire department, higher utility costs from water, electric (about double from when i lived in missouri in a small town). garbage is about 3 times in the county from what it cost in that small town too.

and yet i'm still paying almost $1800 a year in local taxes in return for very little. the street crews haven't even plowed the streets even though it's been snowing since fri.

That's funny, I was under no illusion that it was. You can't recognize baiting or bigotry in your own posts but yet you qualify as a moderator. I find that quite bizarre.

maybe your recognition meter needs adjustment then.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Gary, you benefit from a system that you don't pay into. What do you call that?

I wrote a check for $178,000 and change Good to know I don't pay anything. what on earth are you talking about?

I do not pay into the insurance system. I do not receive any insurance benefits. Seems fair so far. I pay for medical expenses I incur, prescriptions I use...all by cash (check) when I check out of the doctor's office I ask about the bill, pull out my check book and write a check (sometimes use a debit card) I receive a 35-50% discount because they do not have to bill an insurance company, do insurance company paperwork, wait for payment, and pay insurance compnay profits. Obviously not every doctor in thew worlds is willing to give up their profits to me, or willing to make others pay for my health costs. After all it is a free market system and they want to make a profit also. All of them have a cash discount. so does your doctor. ask him. "If I drop my insurance and pay cash for all my visits, what will the fee be?" You may be shocked to learn you are doing nothing but paying into the insurance system...not the medical system. The country doesn't need a good insurance system, it needs good health care. Insurance companies donot provide health care. None. No money paid to an insurance company provides health care. Insurance is a financial product, not a health care service. Insurance is a financial decision, not a health care decision.

It is a personal decision and should be a personal choice. One size does not fit all. Heath care does not exist because of nsurance, insurance exists to pay for health care. It is like saying that we have nicer cars now because of car insurance being mandatory. Stupid. Not all people need health insurance. More need it now than ever before, but not all. It behooves insurance companies to increase health care costs to increase demand for insurance so premiums can be increased due to higher demand.

People independent of the insurance system are a pariah because they do not need the federal government to pay for their care and they do not need the insurance companies to pay for their care and they do not need the people that make a profit doing so. they deal directly with the MEDICAL provider and pay directly for their medical care, saving themselves a lot of money and cutting out the middle man. They are in no way taking advantage of anything they have not paid for.

This is really a preposterous assumption and you are the only genius putting it forth, though the whole liberl thing seems to be a variety of disjointed excuses anyway (crocodles, Dickenson tales, tropical islands and no one who can discuss reality) and really there is no further discussion on this pooint for thinking adults. Maybe all the docotres and healthcare prviders are just really bad business people with a strange affinity for personal checks?

[Peikko 1,575]

You keep thinking bills equate to costs. They don't.

[Peikko 1,575]

No one can know if they will or will not need health insurance. If you know you are sick before you try to get health insurance, you are excluded as things stand in the US, alough of course there are differences with universally provided systems.

Private health insurance is unnecessary for the effective provision of affordable health care bravo, however health care is prohibitively expensive for the individual if there is no provision for making it a pooled resource, effectively, a pooled resouce in this sense is a form of 'insurance' and the only way to make it affordable for the individual, the only viable alternative to private insurance provision is a nation based system, simply removing insurance from the equation is not a solution for the average person, less so the poor and disadvantaged and yet that is your solution, apparantly. Or the status quo, where people like you, who choose to not take part in the insurance pool (not paying into the system) take advantage of the benefits that having an insurance pool brings. Fantastic, again.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Ali G. 37]

When you have folks who don't understand what a government should do, what chance do they have of understanding the importance and relevance of taxes or providing basic services for their citizens to access.

You would think these people are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet equivalents, nope, they are folks residing in probably the poorest states in the Union. States that desperately need $$$ by means of taxes to bring them back to first world status. Ignorance is Bliss I guess and also explains the mindset in the Mid West, the South and the ghettos. Also explains only 24% having passports.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Booyah

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

LOL...my point is, we've all relied on the government for help in some form or fashion throughout our lives. I'm going to guess your parents sent you to a public school and that you attended a public college or university, all of which are made possible through government subsidies. Not to mention the local law enforcement, fire and emergency services, the library you checked books out, the underground plumbing that allowed your family to enjoy running water and a sewage system to neatly get rid of your bodily waste. Our system works in that something like a sewage system, which take millions of dollars in tax money to build, will benefit thousands for years to come. It would futile to try and prove that you've paid your fair share of every public system that you or your family have benefited from. Some have paid more than others. The old widow who lives on her social security check and has her utility bill at an adjusted lower rate for low income people is not a leech either.

I pay taxes. we have one child in high school, public, and pay many times what someone living in a mobile home off the lake pays to send 3 or 4 children to the same school? How's that for fair? I pay more for library tax, local roads, parks etc, because that is based on the value of my home, which is more than other people's and less than some other people's. What is your point? I pay it because I exchange that for where I live, my choice. I could sell this place and buy a trailer off the lake if I wanted to. I am not complaining...just saying.

My education was at a public university paid for by my employer in return for 20+ years of service using the education they paid for. I am a strong supporter of public funding for education, always have been. A good education promotes independence. The government of the USA should promote independence. I had no student loans because I chose a way to finance my education so I didn't have to. Anyone could do this. Choices. My parents did not have money to pay for my college. My wife goes to a private university, we pay cash. Our son goes to a publc university but because he is not a citizen of that country we have to pay cash for his tuition, room and board and medical insurance!!!!!! He is not covered by the socialized medicine in Russia and I am not there to pay cash if he gets sick, we have to buy medical insurance from the school. $100 per YEAR. (compassionate government insurance) OK, you talked me into it..

How is this relevent to the government using healthcare to control our lives? How is this relevent to having more control by paying for things yourself? How is libertarianism a failure? How did that come up?

Why can liberals not stay on topic or address the issue? Now we have shot off on the libertarianism tangent. can anyone focus? Can anyone offer a relevent argument?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

When you have folks who don't understand what a government should do, what chance do they have of understanding the importance and relevance of taxes or providing basic services for their citizens to access.

You would think these people are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet equivalents, nope, they are folks residing in probably the poorest states in the Union. States that desperately need $$$ by means of taxes to bring them back to first world status. Ignorance is Bliss I guess and also explains the mindset in the Mid West, the South and the ghettos.

Your rant about French and Japanese health care was more relevent.

How does this have relevence to the government deciding what you eat, drink and smoke?