Girl, 11, Gives Birth to Baby Boy

[Ali G. 37]

Was your father an advocate of corporal punishment to you and your siblings?

While I grew up in a disciplined household, my old man never hit us, as he didn't need to. We all knew where the boundary was in his house. I also grew up in a generation of tag team parenting. Which means, my folks would have encouraged others putting me in place if I got out of line in public.

Fast forward to 2010 and situate yourself in the United States of America, I'd probably be arrested for telling another person's child to behave; to not tear down the displays in a store, because he didn't get his way. There must be a reason why we have a negligible number of kids being murdered by other kids in Aus, furthermore, almost zero columbine cases.

Booyah, what kind of punishment do you want to see institutionalized for negligent parents?

Jail comes to mind, but I prefer heavy handed fines, coupled with community service. Naturally the cancellation of any and every form of government benefits provided to them by the taxpayer.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Booyah

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Jail comes to mind, but I prefer heavy handed fines.

Do you think the parents of this girl should get jail time? How about the parents of the boy (assuming he was also not an adult) who got her pregnant? Shouldn't the punishment be equal distributed among the perpetrators?

[Ali G. 37]

Naturally the cancellation of any and every form of government benefits provided to them by the taxpayer.

The reason this is so important is because a hell of a lot of folks, such as the family in the OP, tend to live off benefits paid by others.

I remember a family in Aus who had five kids, yet neither of the parents had worked in 6 years.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Booyah

[Peikko 1,575]

While I grew up in a disciplined household, my old man never hit us, as he didn't need to. We all knew where the boundary was in his house. I also grew up in a generation of tag team parenting. Which means, my folks would have encouraged others putting me in place if I got out of line in public.

Fast forward to 2010 and situate yourself in the United States of America, I'd probably be arrested for telling another person's child to behave; to not tear down the displays in a store, because he didn't get his way.

Jail comes to mind, but I prefer heavy handed fines.

I very much doubt your parents allowed strangers to discipline you despite your rosy coloured view of 'how things were when you were a child'.

The reality is that there are measurable improvements in society in terms of teen pregnancies (we have data to prove it) due to all sorts of factors, but not because parents are fined or otherwise punished for allowing their children to have sex with other minors.

Your enthusiasm for punishment as a way to improve society is quite bizarre and entirely without any data to back it up as a successful strategy, in fact quite the opposite if you examine history not to mention how expensive such a strategy would prove to be.

[Ali G. 37]

Do you think the parents of this girl should get jail time? How about the parents of the boy (assuming he was also not an adult) who got her pregnant? Shouldn't the punishment be equal distributed among the perpetrators?

Both parents should be questioned and investigated, that is a given.

As research demonstrates:

Teen mothers are mostly single parents. Eighty percent of fathers do not marry mothers and pay less than $800 annually in child support, important income for poor children.

Children living apart from fathers are five times more likely to be poor than children from two-parent homes. Children of uninvolved fathers are twice as likely to drop out of school, abuse alcohol or drugs or go to jail, and four times more likely to need help for emotional or behavioral problems.

I can vouch for the latter. The biggest trouble makers of my high school, with many doing time, fell into this category. Whereas kids that had involved parents, now have successful careers and businesses; with many now having well rounded families of their own. Involved as in knew what their kids did and so on. Not the micromanage involved types, which are another problematic type of parent in 2010, and actually detrimental to a child's upbringing.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Booyah

[Ban Hammer 13,645]

Locking the door and telling my parents to stay out of my room, would have been the funniest thing I could have told my old man.

my room would not have had a door after that - dad woulda knocked it down.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Both parents should be questioned and investigated, that is a given.

As research demonstrates:

I can vouch for the latter. The biggest trouble makers of my high school, with many doing time, fell into this category. Whereas kids that had involved parents, now have successful careers and businesses; with many now having well rounded families of their own. Involved as in knew what their kids did and so on. Not the micromanage involved types, which are another problematic type of parent in 2010, and actually detrimental to a child's upbringing.

There have also been countless examples of children that grew up with abusive/negligent parents and they went on to be successful people. That's not condoning abusive/negligent parenting, but IMO, you are oversimplifying all problems of behavior in children to a reflection of bad parenting. The Columbine shooters came from upper scale families...although from what I read, the parents weren't very involved with their kids.

I'm all for addressing the problems of bad parenting...any programs that encourage and support good parenting, but I know that some kids are going to make some really bad decisions regardless of their parents.

[Peikko 1,575]

Both parents should be questioned and investigated, that is a given.

As research demonstrates:

I can vouch for the latter. The biggest trouble makers of my high school, with many doing time, fell into this category. Whereas kids that had involved parents, now have successful careers and businesses; with many now having well rounded families of their own. Involved as in knew what their kids did and so on. Not the micromanage involved types, which are another problematic type of parent in 2010, and actually detrimental to a child's upbringing.

Parents, no matter how well intentioned, can't have absolute knowledge of what their children are up to all the time, nor can they counsel their children to make the correct choices 100% of the time when they are outside of their parent's influence because necessarily they are children and will make bad choices as part of the learning process. That this 11 year old's bad choices led to quite such severe consequences is of course unusual to say the least. The majority of 11 year old bad choices concern not completing school work on time, or wanting to play computer games past bed time.

The fact is, that this is a terrible thing to happen to an 11 year old, and nothing can change the choices that led to this outcome now, all that can be done is to try to improve things going forward. Jailing or fining the parents will not achieve that end.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Ali G. 37]

I very much doubt your parents allowed strangers to discipline you despite your rosy coloured view of 'how things were when you were a child'.

The reality is that there are measurable improvements in society in terms of teen pregnancies (we have data to prove it) due to all sorts of factors, but not because parents are fined or otherwise punished for allowing their children to have sex with other minors.

Your enthusiasm for punishment as a way to improve society is quite bizarre and entirely without any data to back it up as a successful strategy, in fact quite the opposite if you examine history not to mention how expensive such a strategy would prove to be.

Disciplined in terms of tell me off or be the extended parent, not discipline in terms of spank me. Then again, we actually respected (or feared) adults and were not raised to think our ###### don't stink. The level of freedom to do as you please over here goes above and beyond what is permitted in most other first world countries. Anyone who has traveled and lived abroad would know that first-hand. Hence, US freedom being the butt of jokes in any discussion about it in those countries.

Wrong again. Guess which countries have the lowest rates of homicides?

Why am I not surprised that the very same folk who beat on about allowing a woman to abort, no matter how large the baby is, now advocate for an 11 year old child having a child of their own.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Booyah

[Ali G. 37]

Jailing or fining the parents will not achieve that end.

This attitude and approach towards various things is why the UK, for example, is where it is. Punishment in this case is not about hurting the parents, as the damage has already been done. It's about sending out a clear message to others that such pathetic negligence from douche parents will not be tolerated. Furthermore, that the government will not fund the upbringing of this child.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Booyah

[Peikko 1,575]

Disciplined in terms of tell me off or be the extended parent, not discipline in terms of spank me. Then again, we actually respected (or feared) adults and were not raised to think our ###### don't stink.

Wrong again. Guess which countries have the lowest rates of homicides? Furthermore, the level of freedom to do as you please goes way above and beyond what is permitted in most other countries.

Why am I not surprised that the very same folk who beat on about allowing a woman to abort, no matter how large the baby is, now advocate for an 11 year old child having a child of their own.

There are inherent dangers in allowing someone who is not a parent to discipline children that are not their own, unless they are trained professionals. Telling a child not to do something however is not only responsible but normal and happens all the time today as it did in the past.

As for the bolded, if that's your interpretation of the things I have posted both in this thread, and regarding abortion, you need to go back to school, your comprehension skills are abysmal.

[Ali G. 37]

There have also been countless examples of children that grew up with abusive/negligent parents and they went on to be successful people. That's not condoning abusive/negligent parenting, but IMO, you are oversimplifying all problems of behavior in children to a reflection of bad parenting. The Columbine shooters came from upper scale families...although from what I read, the parents weren't very involved with their kids.

I'm all for addressing the problems of bad parenting...any programs that encourage and support good parenting, but I know that some kids are going to make some really bad decisions regardless of their parents.

Not denying it but the odds of a child growing up to be well rounded from an negligent or abusive household, or one whose parents are uninvolved is extremely low. As research I posted earlier on illustrates, less than two percent of teen mothers end up completing college by 30. The odds of kids growing up in the aforementioned environment going to jail, abusing drugs and alcohol or joining a gang is extremely high. Once a kid gets caught up in this #######, we as a society have to suffer and pay one way of another for the irresponsible to downright pathetic choices of this kid's parents.

Very very rarely will you hear of a kid raised in a loving, supportive and involved household, turning out to be a gangsta and so on.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Booyah

[Peikko 1,575]

This attitude and approach towards various things is why the UK, for example, is where it is. Punishment in this case is not about hurting the parents, as the damage has already been done. It's about sending out a clear message to others that such pathetic negligence from douche parents will not be tolerated. Furthermore, that the government will not fund the upbringing of this child.

It sounds very nice, all this holding parents accountable, and making an example of them in order to deter others but it doesn't work in the way that you want it to because the cause and effect are not as straightforward as you believe them to be. Not to mention what you expect to happen should you remove access to any help should the parents be in a situation where economically they are unable to cope without government assistance.

It really illustrates how your 'solutions' are simply drum beat ideology as apposed to pragmatic responses that are the norm. Not that society has all the answers because obviously things are still going wrong, but punishment as a vehicle of change is just not going to work.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[Ali G. 37]

As for the bolded, if that's your interpretation of the things I have posted both in this thread, and regarding abortion, you need to go back to school, your comprehension skills are abysmal.

No Cleo, I just read between the lines and through the bullcrap. Remember we were convicts after all, therefore, we have an innate sixth sense regarding BS.

[Marilyn. 340]

I could be wrong but no one in this thread has said it is ok for an 11 year old to have a child.. we are just saying that punishing the parents is not going to do any good in this situation