Canadians feeling guilty about taking jobs away from Americans?

[MtlMama 0]

oh - but that's easy.

IMO - it's the Francophones that you need to trump

So true. Your China sig reminded me of a recent conversation with my cousin. His son's preschool (US) is teaching Mandarin! My husband wants our son to start Mandarin in preschool, too.

Should be interesting, he already has Spanish and English at home, and French at daycare.

K

[DeadPoolX 9]

Well, here's my view on this...

1. Any employer who would set requirements on language would probably get sued for acting "discriminatory." Even if speaking English was particularly important to that job, the non-English speaker could sue and would probably end up winning. The American legal system is broken (in many ways) and needs a major overhaul.

2. I don't believe it's arrogant to want incoming foreigners to speak English. No one expects them to know English perfectly (it's rare that most Americans and Canadians do this). However, it's not unreasonable to expect some level of proficiency in the language -- if for no other reason, it makes life easier for the immigrant.

It's been said over and over, but when you move to a foreign country, you are expected to adapt; not the people already living there. If I were to move to Germany, France or Spain, do you think I could reasonably demand their citizens speak English in lieu of me learning German, French or Spanish?

3. Canadians aren't "taking jobs away" from Americans. Once a Canadian (or any foreigner) legally immigrates, they are by law considered an American PR. It's at that point the immigrant has every right to work in the United States. Citizenship isn't required for most jobs.

4. The misconception that "Canadians are stealing jobs from Americans" probably stems from the massive influx of illegal aliens. The average American probably doesn't know -- or care -- about the differences between legal and illegal immigration. All they hear is the word "immigrant" and therefore automatically associate an illegal status with it.

[Gemmie 142]

I don't know if anyone already posted this, but it reminds me of:

Interesting topic.

Back in the UK, there is the same thought process. That immigrants are "taking all of the jobs". To be 100% honest, when I didn't know anything about immigration, even I felt a little resentful when I couldn't find a job myself and saw so many foreigners working every kind of job. But now I know that it isn't the case, and whenever I see a Facebook group called "WE ARE BRITISH AND DESERVE THE JOBS THAT IMMIGRANTS ARE GETTING", or hear comments about the borders being open for work for people all over the E.U, I do try and tell people what the reality is.

I don't feel guilty at all. I went through almost 18 months to make myself legally able to live and work in America with my husband, and it was hard. We went through a long time of him being unemployed, and him not making enough money, and I had no legal rights to work even though I was allowed to live here. It feels great to finally have permission to work and start a life together, and I feel I deserve this job that I'm going for. During the luncheon with the company, I was the only immigrant there, and I didn't feel intimidated or that I deserved it less than the Americans in the room. I would be upset to find that Americans feel that way about me after my husband and I worked so hard to get this far. I'll be paying taxes just like everyone else.

[trailmix 77]

2. I don't believe it's arrogant to want incoming foreigners to speak English. No one expects them to know English perfectly (it's rare that most Americans and Canadians do this). However, it's not unreasonable to expect some level of proficiency in the language -- if for no other reason, it makes life easier for the immigrant.

It's really no skin off your nose if the immigrant has a hard time because they can't speak the predominant language of their new country is it?

Edited February 16, 2010 by trailmix

[Wyatt's Torch 45]

It's really no skin off your nose if the immigrant has a hard time because they can't speak the predominant language of their new country is it?

It depends on the job!

I get frustrated when I'm trying to talk to a financial institution / immigration agency (i.e.: NVC) / tech support etc., and I can't fully understand them due to a strong accent and/or insufficient level of fluency in English. In other words, in customer service jobs, I think strong English skills should be mandatory in Canada and the United States. There are many other jobs where it's not nearly as essential.

If I were ever to move to a non-English-speaking country, I would learn the language. I think it would be arrogant and short-sighted to do anything else. There's really no good reason not to, plus communication is the main key to integration into a new society. It doesn't require one to sacrifice one's culture, or even one's language when speaking with others in non-work-related company. But having a grasp of the language is a no-brainer to me. I really don't understand why it's not a no-brainer for others.

[trailmix 77]

I think you missed the point I was trying to make.

The onus is on the employer to choose the correct person for the job. If a person has English as a second - or even first - language and they do not communicate well, be that printed word or on the phone/in person - it is the employers problem.

Now, if you cannot understand the customer service person you are speaking with - it then becomes your problem, of course, however that is something that needs to be addressed by the employer/company, not by you.

That's where the arrogance comes in to play - imo.

You also assume that learning a second or third language is easy for everyone - I don't think that is the case at all, some people do not learn other languages well, some do. Some people may just not be capable of learning another language well - well enough to converse comfortably with locals.

Edited February 16, 2010 by trailmix

[BriCar 0]

I agrea my thinking is I like the country here ( love my husband )

but if the people wouldnt be so damn picky on where they work this country wouldnt have that many unlawfull immigrants working here ,( yes I dont agrea with unlawfull employment but whats the point of complaining )

I been living here for over 2 years and when you hear people beach and moan about whats right and wrong

meanwhile they sit on theyr lazy butts and are to spoiled to get theyr hands dirty ,

well i say if you dont like it get up and do something productive for the country ,work at a mc donalds washing dishes.

no one takes anyones job if you realy want the job to be yours ,

just my 2 cents

Now there's some good observations and feedback!

A new immigarant with a fresh unbiased view of how a lot of the success we have experienced in the US has led to an attitude of laziness and entitlement that is not too productive.

I'm all for a return to the hard work and rolling up your sleeves effort that made America great.

Invest in ourselves design and build better stuff instead of buying it from China.

"In America we find it easier to change our leaders than we do to change ourselves."

just my 2 cents added to yours..

[DeadPoolX 9]

The onus is on the employer to choose the correct person for the job. If a person has English as a second - or even first - language and they do not communicate well, be that printed word or on the phone/in person - it is the employers problem.

Yes, but if the employee feels they aren't getting hired due to lacking English, it's likely they'll sue on the basis of "discrimination." I'm sure the ACLU would pick that case up (especially if the so-called discriminated included Hispanics) and, believe it or not, the employer would probably lose the case.

I remember a case in Houston where an exterminator had printed on his business card: "No habla espanol." Well, those in the Hispanic community who couldn't speak English went berserk. They claimed discrimination (going so far as to say his business card read "I hate Mexicans") and the exterminator was sued. The result? The exterminator had to either learn Spanish or hire someone who knew it.

The exterminator felt that his business card was a fair warning since his profession dealt with potentially harmful chemicals. He didn't want to unintentionally harm anyone. His apparent reward for actually caring about customers (or at least making an attempt to avoid a lawsuit) was to get sued.

Now let me ask you this: Why should the exterminator be forced to learn Spanish or hire someone to do it for him? That's unreasonable. The United States is a predominantly English-speaking country. That means everyone needs to understand English on at least a basic level.

You also assume that learning a second or third language is easy for everyone - I don't think that is the case at all, some people do not learn other languages well, some do. Some people may just not be capable of learning another language well - well enough to converse comfortably with locals.

I don't think anyone has made that assumption. I'm not great with foreign languages (although I do know German and to some degree, French as well). That's not the point, however. I don't live in Germany or France (or even Quebec) so my overall knowledge of those languages is a secondary consideration.

I don't understand why so many people automatically equate "understanding a language" with becoming fluent in it. There's a large difference between the two. If I visited Germany -- and I'd like to do so at some point -- I could never claim complete mastery of German. I know enough to read, write and converse in it on a basic level. Could I get into a political debate? Probably not. Could I read signs or a menu and speak in a (somewhat) intelligible manner? Yes, I could.

[trailmix 77]

Now let me ask you this: Why should the exterminator be forced to learn Spanish or hire someone to do it for him? That's unreasonable. The United States is a predominantly English-speaking country. That means everyone needs to understand English on at least a basic level.

I don't think anyone has made that assumption. I'm not great with foreign languages (although I do know German and to some degree, French as well). That's not the point, however. I don't live in Germany or France (or even Quebec) so my overall knowledge of those languages is a secondary consideration.

I don't understand why so many people automatically equate "understanding a language" with becoming fluent in it. There's a large difference between the two. If I visited Germany -- and I'd like to do so at some point -- I could never claim complete mastery of German. I know enough to read, write and converse in it on a basic level. Could I get into a political debate? Probably not. Could I read signs or a menu and speak in a (somewhat) intelligible manner? Yes, I could.

Well I don't think the exterminator should be required to learn Spanish or hire someone who can speak that language - but they didn't ask me...strangely. But, I guess if you have to take in consideration the American way of suing at all costs - then perhaps a good grasp of English and Spanish should be mandatory in the U.S. and they should ship the rest of the people away to...well somewhere where they don't care what language you speak I suppose. You can't really have a logical debate on rulings that don't have there basis in common sense. You have a country with no official language and a court ordering someone to conduct business in a certain language - I don't understand that.

As for understanding the language, I was replying to Wyatt's post about learning a language...he didn't say 'understanding' - he said learning and he said it was a no brainer.

Edited February 17, 2010 by trailmix

[sleepy in Seattle 3]

As an 'American', it doesn't bother me at all for LEGAL immigrants (no matter where they are from) to work here. I do have issues with some that take jobs requiring them in interact with the public, but don't know how to speak any English. But that's another issue entirely.

If my husband wants to become a US citizen, that's fine. If he doesn't, that's fine too. It is entirely up to him.

Edited to include: It was pointed out to me several years ago that we are all from North America. So I try to say US citizen instead.

I agree with the not being able to speak english part, that is a common problem here in Toronto, I went into a bank a Spadina and dundas, and the lady at the counter couldn't even speak a word of english but yet she works in a bank, go figure

[Galateia 1]

No more than I would expect an American to feel guilty about having a job in Canada. I live here, support the local economy, pay taxes, and contribute to society. I also do not send a large portion of my income out of the country instead of putting it back into circulation, which I know makes a lot of the Americans here very angry. Not sure about the rest of the country, but it makes people here upset.

[Sprailenes 47]

I am actually quite patient with people who can't speak proper English. I am not going to assume how long they've been here. Even if they've been here for a few years, their accent isn't going to 'go away' and they say that English is one of the most difficult languages to learn.

Yes, I have called comcast and I have had trouble understanding the person on the other end. I try to imagine how hard it is for them, and how often during a day they probably get yelled at by people who want them to speak "proper English".

I can't imagine how hard it is for someone to come here, not know the language, try to learn it along with everything else in this country. I am overwhelmed by the change sometimes, and I CAN speak the language, and I am from a country that is compared to the US a lot.

I understand we all want people to speak English, so that our lives aren't interrupted, and we aren't inconvenienced... but I think it's harder for that person than it is for us.

I mean I have seen shirts and bumper stickers that say: "Welcome to America, SPEAK ENGLISH" that attitude just floors me. What's even more funny is that these shirts/sayings are supposed to be aimed at people who can't speak English, so if they can't speak it, I don't think they can read your shirt either there moron.

I think we assume a little too much. Just because you get someone on a customer service line who can't speak "properly" doesn't mean they aren't trying. Just because they're here now, doesn't mean they've been here for years and have refused to learn the language.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Sprailenes

[Udella&Wiz 325]

I guess the main point is - if you move to another country, be prepared to learn and use their national language, whatever that is.

Although I am the grandchild of immigrants to Canada...there was never anyone in our family who expected to speak anything BUT english outside the family. My grandparents were adamant that you did well in school and learned the language...mind you Grandma still sounded like she got off the boat yesterday, even though she came to Canada in the 30's lol!

I tend to be more patient with folks with accents and attempt to not make them feel bad just because their grasp of the language isn't as good as mine, but SOMETIMES I have had enough...when I get telemarketers who call to check on the companies customer service and their accents are so thick I really truly cannot understand them....Off shoring is popular in today's business world, but unfortunately the way to keep your current customers is to not annoy them to high heaven by having someone call they cannot understand....the I just wonder...does the company care at all.

Anyway - so this thread is entirely off topic...no?

[OBX 51]

I can't imagine how hard it is for someone to come here, not know the language, try to learn it along with everything else in this country. I am overwhelmed by the change sometimes, and I CAN speak the language, and I am from a country that is compared to the US a lot.

If we all took the time to look at things from the others' viewpoint we might be a bit more understanding.

[BriCar 0]

I guess the main point is - if you move to another country, be prepared to learn and use their national language, whatever that is.

Although I am the grandchild of immigrants to Canada...there was never anyone in our family who expected to speak anything BUT english outside the family. My grandparents were adamant that you did well in school and learned the language...mind you Grandma still sounded like she got off the boat yesterday, even though she came to Canada in the 30's lol!

I tend to be more patient with folks with accents and attempt to not make them feel bad just because their grasp of the language isn't as good as mine, but SOMETIMES I have had enough...when I get telemarketers who call to check on the companies customer service and their accents are so thick I really truly cannot understand them....Off shoring is popular in today's business world, but unfortunately the way to keep your current customers is to not annoy them to high heaven by having someone call they cannot understand....the I just wonder...does the company care at all.

Anyway - so this thread is entirely off topic...no?

Yeah don't move to Los Angeles and keep saying "eh?"

lol