Where is requirement for proof of relationship?

[TJM 0]

It's also pretty easy to find just some random notary to sign the documents. I know at least 15 in a five mile radius of me, and not all of them are the most honest people. Just because you got a notary to sign the documents does not mean that both people were there at the same time. If my best friend were a notary I'm sure she'd sign whatever I wanted her to.

I think you would be surprised to find that your friend would not falsely place her stamp on a document since if caught she would be fined ... lose any related job (for instance if she worked for a bank) and could go to prison.

[Mark and Carol 4]

You have a point that photos can be altered these days easily and emails and dates shown on documents are not valid proofs. in the same argument your suggestion of notarized documents can also be altered. That is why in my opinion the quantity counts a lot here. Having 10-30 pictures in multiple angles of you with your fiance and the family shows solid enough proof that you were there and the family is ok with your presence. Trying to alter a picture with 10 people in a picture is not easy and so that is why you need lot of pictures and lot of people in the pictures with you and your fiance. Also from the posts of other members who has gone for the interview, it is clear that the consular is more interested in pictures than anything else in general. So give that priority.

TJM,

Bottomline is send photos, emails, phone call records, passport stamps, etc. At this stage, it doesn't hurt to send too much evidence because you don't want to delay the process by receiving an RFE. Also, if you send photos with 10 people in the photos then you have to write every person's name on the back of each photo.

Good luck.

[brightskte 18]

I think you would be surprised to find that your friend would not falsely place her stamp on a document since if caught she would be fined ... lose any related job (for instance if she worked for a bank) and could go to prison.

Doesn't stop it from happening. I've seen it happen around here for various things.

The point is, USCIS doesn't care about notarized documents. It's moot. They want what they want and questioning it is just about as useless as complaining about the wait times. Either you do it, or your don't get your fiance. Take a pick.

[TJM 0]

Doesn't stop it from happening. I've seen it happen around here for various things.

The point is, USCIS doesn't care about notarized documents. It's moot. They want what they want and questioning it is just about as useless as complaining about the wait times. Either you do it, or your don't get your fiance. Take a pick.

Here is my point .... As I said in my initial post I am submitting all of the suggested proof that I have read here including passport stamps and photos and airline docs along with the two notarized documents BUT I CAN'T FIND ANYTHING IN THE USCIS DOCUMENTS THAT STATES WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR. THERE IS NO REFERENCE TO PHOTOS ... PASSPORT STAMPS ... EMAILS ... OR ANTHING. All of the suggestions are just that ... suggestions from people who have gone through the process ... there does not appear to be anything on the USCIS SITE OR IN THEiR INSTRUCTIONS THAT DEFINES WHAT THEY WANT.

My initial post simply asks if there is any way to find out from the USCIS if a notarized document showing both people stood in front of a notary ... would prove that we met. If anyone asked if photos or passport stamps or emails or airline tickets would prove the point they obvioulsy would have to answer with ... "it depends". The notarized document is an entirely different issue and it might serve to save people a lot of time if the answer to this question was ... "yes".

[Bernie C 24]

You should provide at least the minimum documents required by the UCSIC to satisfy what is stated to be provided.

Look at this from another perspective, while you are correct that emails can be "created" and photos can be "doctored" etc ... doing so would be providing fradulent information. Anyone who would do this is clearly in voilation of the law.

These are standard types of accepted proof that are accepted. Dont overthink the process.

Please dont take what I said above the wrong way - I understand what you are saying and know you have no intention of doing those things. Just making the point that these are things that are accepted means of proof to the USCIS for approval of a petition.

Boarding passes dont show you were togehter but they can confirm you were there at the time photos were taken.

I agree that the notarized letter signed by both of you shows the both of you in the same place at the same time and its a great idea.

I guess my point is - dont overthink the I129F petition process. Send in the "normal proofs" they expect and you'll be fine. Its the easiest part of the days ahead and quite simple to get through provided you send what they require and expect to see.

Good Luck on your journey!

[john_and_marlene 162]

I think you would be surprised to find that your friend would not falsely place her stamp on a document since if caught she would be fined ... lose any related job (for instance if she worked for a bank) and could go to prison.

If the threat of prison was enough to stop people from committing crimes, the prisons would not be as overcrowded as they are.

[TracyTN 237]

Wow ... I guess I didn't state my position clear enough. The ONLY thing the first step of the k1 process requires as far as a relationship is that the two parties have been together in the last two years. The contents of the notarized document have nothing to do with proving you have been together. It is the fact that the two parties have been in the same room ... standing in front of a notary TOGETHER ... and that an authorized person (the notary) is testifying that he has verified the identity of the two parties by checking their official ID's (with photo IDs .... e.g., passports, ). The notary does not read the document ... the notaries only responsibility is to assure that the two parties who are present together are who they say they are.

If a notary falsifies a signature they lose their job ... are fined ... and can go to prison.

I didn't realize you were saying that both parties would be in front of the notary. I thought you meant that, for example, you'd have a document notarized and were saying that by doing so, it was PROOF that what was contained on said paper was genuine.

I suppose there is some logic in having the same notary put their stamp on your letters of intent. But plenty of people don't (we didn't) and have had no problems proving they'd met within the last 2 years.

[baron555 934]

Here is my point .... As I said in my initial post I am submitting all of the suggested proof that I have read here including passport stamps and photos and airline docs along with the two notarized documents BUT I CAN'T FIND ANYTHING IN THE USCIS DOCUMENTS THAT STATES WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR. THERE IS NO REFERENCE TO PHOTOS ... PASSPORT STAMPS ... EMAILS ... OR ANTHING. All of the suggestions are just that ... suggestions from people who have gone through the process ... there does not appear to be anything on the USCIS SITE OR IN THEiR INSTRUCTIONS THAT DEFINES WHAT THEY WANT.

But you CAN find from folks experienced in teh process what they sent and how they were approved or any truoble they had here on VJ. Why must you belabor the issue. You send all the "normal" documentation as folks did who were successful. Period. Good luck.

My initial post simply asks if there is any way to find out from the USCIS if a notarized document showing both people stood in front of a notary ... would prove that we met. If anyone asked if photos or passport stamps or emails or airline tickets would prove the point they obvioulsy would have to answer with ... "it depends". The notarized document is an entirely different issue and it might serve to save people a lot of time if the answer to this question was ... "yes".

[gyi 1]

USCIS goes by facts, when you get to the consulate, a subjective process known as "bona-fide relation begins" a can of worms if ever there was a can of worms.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Here is my point .... As I said in my initial post I am submitting all of the suggested proof that I have read here including passport stamps and photos and airline docs along with the two notarized documents BUT I CAN'T FIND ANYTHING IN THE USCIS DOCUMENTS THAT STATES WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR. THERE IS NO REFERENCE TO PHOTOS ... PASSPORT STAMPS ... EMAILS ... OR ANTHING. All of the suggestions are just that ... suggestions from people who have gone through the process ... there does not appear to be anything on the USCIS SITE OR IN THEiR INSTRUCTIONS THAT DEFINES WHAT THEY WANT.

Precisely. The I-129F instructions briefly mention the requirement that you've met within two years, and there is only one sentence about submitting evidence of this meeting:

Provide copies of evidence that you and your fiancé(e) have personally met within the last two years;

This topic of sending notarized documents as additional proof has come up before, and for some reason always seems to raise a debate. "Give them what they ask for or you'll be denied!" For pete's sake, people - USCIS doesn't tell you what they're asking for! They just say they want "evidence". As TJM states, the evidence recommended on VJ is based on the experience of people who've managed to get a petition approved, and not on any 'official' guidance from USCIS. Spend some time in the RFE thread and you'll see that some people HAVE submitted the sort of evidence recommended on VJ, and they've STILL gotten an RFE for evidence of meeting. Nobody seems to be able to explain why the suggested evidence works for most people, but fails for a small percentage of others. Gary even asked the director of the VSC about this evidence, and he admitted that it depends on the adjudicator.

When I read about people getting RFE's for evidence of meeting, I went through the same sort of thought process that TJM is going through. What the heck does USCIS want, when virtually every piece of recommended primary or secondary evidence can be faked? What would convince them beyond any doubt? Surely, there must be some sort of official 'witness' whose testimony they would accept without question.

I thought about getting a local notary to witness our signatures, but it occurred to me that they might not give much credence to a notary stamp from a Southeast Asian communist country known for government corruption. That's when it occurred to me that there are witnesses in Vietnam who work for the US government at the consulate, and they ALSO offer notary services.

For people who think it's a waste of time because it's not the "standard" evidence, get this through your skulls - THERE IS NO STANDARD EVIDENCE. As TJM has stated, what you've come to accept as "standard" evidence is based only on people's recommendations, and not on USCIS policy. You won't get denied if you go above and beyond what you believe they want to see, or what other people tell you they want to see. Think like a USCIS adjudicator. Would you reject a notary stamp as evidence because it wasn't mentioned on VJ as recommended evidence, but accept a visa stamp from a foreign government official?

My initial post simply asks if there is any way to find out from the USCIS if a notarized document showing both people stood in front of a notary ... would prove that we met. If anyone asked if photos or passport stamps or emails or airline tickets would prove the point they obvioulsy would have to answer with ... "it depends". The notarized document is an entirely different issue and it might serve to save people a lot of time if the answer to this question was ... "yes".

Unfortunately, the only definitive answer to this question would have to come from USCIS. Perhaps you could ask Gary to send this question to his friend and neighbor, who is the director of the USCIS Vermont Service Center. There's a pinned topic about this.

[pushbrk 12,883]

As TJM states, the evidence recommended on VJ is based on the experience of people who've managed to get a petition approved, and not on any 'official' guidance from USCIS.

For some that is true. However, the Catch 22 is that USCIS... DOES... provide guidance when you don't give them what they need. We've had that guidance posted here. So, much of the "experience" includes references to that guidance. Another place to find guidance is to read the reported denials of petitions for lack of evidence of meeting.

This is why we refer to primary evidence and secondary evidence (photos) so often. It's been to long since I've seen a member post their evidence RFE to know where to start looking but if you can find that post, it will tell you what's already been stated repeatedly as to what USCIS considers "primary evidence".

In short, it's not just what people have done that works. It's what we've been reliably informed does NOT constitute evidence.

All that said, it's my opinion USCIS would consider a notarized document signed by both petitioner and beneficiary to be primary evidence. I just think it's overkill. No penalty for such overkill though.

[SunDrop 59]

All that said, it's my opinion USCIS would consider a notarized document signed by both petitioner and beneficiary to be primary evidence. I just think it's overkill. No penalty for such overkill though.

Unless, as you've suggested before in relation to a notarized document of the kind suggested by the OP, it ends up looking rather suspicious that the couple are going to extraordinary measures to prove that they satisfy the criteria of having met. I would think this is especially the case if there is not a single piece of other 'evidence' that they have met.

I suppose one could always take the perspective that although the USCIS is just a technical process, the Consulate stage receives everything that you submit with your initial I-129F. And they are permitted far more flexibility when it comes to their decision-making criteria.

It has been documented through experience of VJ members that the Consular Officials do examine their interviewee files before the interview itself and in some cases have apparently already decided before ever meeting the interviewee that they are going to deny or request more evidence. It's not clear whether they prepare both approval AND denial/ RFE notices before interview, issuing whichever they appropriate at interview, depending on its outcome.

What is written in rules or guidelines vs. what is common practice is the issue.

If this thread is a debate on the technical merit of providing a notarized statement as definitive proof, then it has been agreed that it would constitute proof.

If the OP wants reassurance or to be advised that he can submit the I-129F with ONLY this, again the answer is technically yes. BUT it's not recommended because of the fact that it could raise flags when the CO doesn't have anything to go on as far as what they need to approve the visa, namely evidence of an ongoing relationship, that is genuine in its existence (namely love) rather than a convenience facilitating US residency.

[pushbrk 12,883]

Unless, as you've suggested before in relation to a notarized document of the kind suggested by the OP, it ends up looking rather suspicious that the couple are going to extraordinary measures to prove that they satisfy the criteria of having met. I would think this is especially the case if there is not a single piece of other 'evidence' that they have met.

I suppose one could always take the perspective that although the USCIS is just a technical process, the Consulate stage receives everything that you submit with your initial I-129F. And they are permitted far more flexibility when it comes to their decision-making criteria.

It has been documented through experience of VJ members that the Consular Officials do examine their interviewee files before the interview itself and in some cases have apparently already decided before ever meeting the interviewee that they are going to deny or request more evidence. It's not clear whether they prepare both approval AND denial/ RFE notices before interview, issuing whichever they appropriate at interview, depending on its outcome.

What is written in rules or guidelines vs. what is common practice is the issue.

If this thread is a debate on the technical merit of providing a notarized statement as definitive proof, then it has been agreed that it would constitute proof.

If the OP wants reassurance or to be advised that he can submit the I-129F with ONLY this, again the answer is technically yes. BUT it's not recommended because of the fact that it could raise flags when the CO doesn't have anything to go on as far as what they need to approve the visa, namely evidence of an ongoing relationship, that is genuine in its existence (namely love) rather than a convenience facilitating US residency.

All good points. I too would be suspicious if this were the only evidence of meeting in person.

It should be noted that "definitive proof" is not the standard, fortunately. The standard is "primary evidence".

[SunDrop 59]

It should be noted that "definitive proof" is not the standard, fortunately. The standard is "primary evidence".

Gotcha Nearly full marks! lol

[TJM 0]

I want to thank everyone for their input on this subject.

The reason I think this is important is that since a notarized document (using a US notary) is so “conclusive”, I think it is possible that the USCIS would confirm that this is all that is necessary to prove that the petitioner and fiancée were together in the last two years. (That is all they are asking for during the petition phase).

IF that were the case … and … IF the foreign fiancée can confirm that their US embassy would only focus on the evidence presented to them during the interview phase … then in the future people can have many additional months to worry about collecting the “relationship” evidence.

I don’t see why the notarized document is “overkill”. It is extremely easy and inexpensive to get a document notarized. It actually takes less time and it is less expensive to have a notary witness two signatures than taking photos to a copy center and having copies made. I realize that photos and passport stamps will be important during the interview phase but that takes place many months after the petition is submitted.

As JimVaPhuong suggested I will see if I can contact Gary about approaching his USCIS contact about this issue. Maybe we can make the process easier for some folks in the future.