Where is requirement for proof of relationship?

[TJM 0]

This is a follow up to my question about using notarized documents to prove we have met and intend to get married.

I am submitting the 129f petition this week and I am intrigued about the various suggestions people make regarding the evidence that is required to prove we met and intend to get married. I will submit photos and passport stamps as suggested but it seems to me that the use of notarized documents is indisputable proof that cannot be contested.

Photos can easily be doctored with today's technology.

Airline tickets and passport stamps only show that the parties were probably in the same country at the same time ... they do not prove conclusively that the two people were together.

I can easily create emails with whatever dates I want to show. None of these are absolute proof that we were together.

In my opinion there is nothing easier and less expensive than using notarized documents. It costs less than $10 to have a document notarized. In our case we are submitting a Letter stating our intent to get married that contains both of our signatures that has been notarized. This proves conclusively that we were together in front of the notary. The notary is an authorized representative of the government and the notary cannot stamp the document unless they have been presented with the necessary information (passport, photo ID, etc) that proves the people who are signing the document are who they claim to be. The notary also records the information in a logbook so that one simple call to the notary can be made by anyone who needs confirmation that we met by talking to the notary.

We also are submitting a notarized letter from the person who will be performing our marriage ceremony stating that we met TOGETHER with him and that he is planning to perform the marriage ceremony. The letter is on his stationary (in our case this is a mayor of my town).

Those two documents would seem to me to prove exactly what is asked for. I cannot find anything in an official document that states they need to understand the nature of the relationship.

I am intrigued about this issue and I am wondering if there is any way to get an "official" opinion from the USICS about the use of notarized documents. IF these prove conclusively that we met it is a lot easier than printing emails and taking photos, etc that can still be challenged as to their validity.

[Guitarlo 2]

This is a follow up to my question about using notarized documents to prove we have met and intend to get married.

I am submitting the 129f petition this week and I am intrigued about the various suggestions people make regarding the evidence that is required to prove we met and intend to get married. I will submit photos and passport stamps as suggested but it seems to me that the use of notarized documents is indisputable proof that cannot be contested.

Photos can easily be doctored with today's technology.

Airline tickets and passport stamps only show that the parties were probably in the same country at the same time ... they do not prove conclusively that the two people were together.

I can easily create emails with whatever dates I want to show. None of these are absolute proof that we were together.

In my opinion there is nothing easier and less expensive than using notarized documents. It costs less than $10 to have a document notarized. In our case we are submitting a Letter stating our intent to get married that contains both of our signatures that has been notarized. This proves conclusively that we were together in front of the notary. The notary is an authorized representative of the government and the notary cannot stamp the document unless they have been presented with the necessary information (passport, photo ID, etc) that proves the people who are signing the document are who they claim to be. The notary also records the information in a logbook so that one simple call to the notary can be made by anyone who needs confirmation that we met by talking to the notary.

We also are submitting a notarized letter from the person who will be performing our marriage ceremony stating that we met TOGETHER with him and that he is planning to perform the marriage ceremony. The letter is on his stationary (in our case this is a mayor of my town).

Those two documents would seem to me to prove exactly what is asked for. I cannot find anything in an official document that states they need to understand the nature of the relationship.

I am intrigued about this issue and I am wondering if there is any way to get an "official" opinion from the USICS about the use of notarized documents. IF these prove conclusively that we met it is a lot easier than printing emails and taking photos, etc that can still be challenged as to their validity.

My two pesos worth on the subject is a lot of photos with your bride to be and her family members assuming she has family was plenty good for my case. I did do the required intent to marry letter and had it notarized. What you're planning to do is probably more than you need to do but it won't hurt anything.

[TracyTN 237]

This is a follow up to my question about using notarized documents to prove we have met and intend to get married.

I am submitting the 129f petition this week and I am intrigued about the various suggestions people make regarding the evidence that is required to prove we met and intend to get married. I will submit photos and passport stamps as suggested but it seems to me that the use of notarized documents is indisputable proof that cannot be contested.

Photos can easily be doctored with today's technology.

Airline tickets and passport stamps only show that the parties were probably in the same country at the same time ... they do not prove conclusively that the two people were together.

I can easily create emails with whatever dates I want to show. None of these are absolute proof that we were together.

In my opinion there is nothing easier and less expensive than using notarized documents. It costs less than $10 to have a document notarized. In our case we are submitting a Letter stating our intent to get married that contains both of our signatures that has been notarized. This proves conclusively that we were together in front of the notary. The notary is an authorized representative of the government and the notary cannot stamp the document unless they have been presented with the necessary information (passport, photo ID, etc) that proves the people who are signing the document are who they claim to be. The notary also records the information in a logbook so that one simple call to the notary can be made by anyone who needs confirmation that we met by talking to the notary.

We also are submitting a notarized letter from the person who will be performing our marriage ceremony stating that we met TOGETHER with him and that he is planning to perform the marriage ceremony. The letter is on his stationary (in our case this is a mayor of my town).

Those two documents would seem to me to prove exactly what is asked for. I cannot find anything in an official document that states they need to understand the nature of the relationship.

I am intrigued about this issue and I am wondering if there is any way to get an "official" opinion from the USICS about the use of notarized documents. IF these prove conclusively that we met it is a lot easier than printing emails and taking photos, etc that can still be challenged as to their validity.

I think you're getting ahead of yourself just a bit.

At the petition phase, all they're really trying to establish is that the couple have physically met within the past two years, and that both are free to marry. Those are the two main requirements for having an I 129f petition approved. (Aside from the petitioner being a USC.) The suggestions you've seen on the board for airline boarding passes/passport stamps, photos, divorce documents, letters of intent, etc. are to establish both of those facts.

Judgments about legitimate relationships are largely left to consular officers at the time of interview. Because as you've mentioned, it can be too easy to 'fake it' by documents alone.

BTW all notarized documents prove is that the person who signed the document is who they say they are. You can still fabricate information in those documents - a notary would have no way to distinguish that. So I don't think that's the greatest measuring stick either.

[jjcentral 0]

This is a follow up to my question about using notarized documents to prove we have met and intend to get married.

I am submitting the 129f petition this week and I am intrigued about the various suggestions people make regarding the evidence that is required to prove we met and intend to get married. I will submit photos and passport stamps as suggested but it seems to me that the use of notarized documents is indisputable proof that cannot be contested.

Photos can easily be doctored with today's technology.

Airline tickets and passport stamps only show that the parties were probably in the same country at the same time ... they do not prove conclusively that the two people were together.

I can easily create emails with whatever dates I want to show. None of these are absolute proof that we were together.

In my opinion there is nothing easier and less expensive than using notarized documents. It costs less than $10 to have a document notarized. In our case we are submitting a Letter stating our intent to get married that contains both of our signatures that has been notarized. This proves conclusively that we were together in front of the notary. The notary is an authorized representative of the government and the notary cannot stamp the document unless they have been presented with the necessary information (passport, photo ID, etc) that proves the people who are signing the document are who they claim to be. The notary also records the information in a logbook so that one simple call to the notary can be made by anyone who needs confirmation that we met by talking to the notary.

We also are submitting a notarized letter from the person who will be performing our marriage ceremony stating that we met TOGETHER with him and that he is planning to perform the marriage ceremony. The letter is on his stationary (in our case this is a mayor of my town).

Those two documents would seem to me to prove exactly what is asked for. I cannot find anything in an official document that states they need to understand the nature of the relationship.

I am intrigued about this issue and I am wondering if there is any way to get an "official" opinion from the USICS about the use of notarized documents. IF these prove conclusively that we met it is a lot easier than printing emails and taking photos, etc that can still be challenged as to their validity.

You have a point that photos can be altered these days easily and emails and dates shown on documents are not valid proofs. in the same argument your suggestion of notarized documents can also be altered. That is why in my opinion the quantity counts a lot here. Having 10-30 pictures in multiple angles of you with your fiance and the family shows solid enough proof that you were there and the family is ok with your presence. Trying to alter a picture with 10 people in a picture is not easy and so that is why you need lot of pictures and lot of people in the pictures with you and your fiance. Also from the posts of other members who has gone for the interview, it is clear that the consular is more interested in pictures than anything else in general. So give that priority.

[baron555 934]

This is a follow up to my question about using notarized documents to prove we have met and intend to get married.

I am intrigued about this issue and I am wondering if there is any way to get an "official" opinion from the USICS about the use of notarized documents. IF these prove conclusively that we met it is a lot easier than printing emails and taking photos, etc that can still be challenged as to their validity.

OK OK, submitting notarized documents do assist in determining that two people were together.....fine.

But what do they tell about your relationship (the subject of your topic). They say nothing about the relationship except the two of you were together at the notary. All the other evidence, when put together, hopefully tells your story.

You do not need that evidence now but you will need it at the interview.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

I think you're getting ahead of yourself just a bit.

At the petition phase, all they're really trying to establish is that the couple have physically met within the past two years, and that both are free to marry. Those are the two main requirements for having an I 129f petition approved. (Aside from the petitioner being a USC.) The suggestions you've seen on the board for airline boarding passes/passport stamps, photos, divorce documents, letters of intent, etc. are to establish both of those facts.

Judgments about legitimate relationships are largely left to consular officers at the time of interview. Because as you've mentioned, it can be too easy to 'fake it' by documents alone.

BTW all notarized documents prove is that the person who signed the document is who they say they are. You can still fabricate information in those documents - a notary would have no way to distinguish that. So I don't think that's the greatest measuring stick either.

I think that's pretty much what he was saying. The title of the thread "Where is the requirement for proof of relationship?" means that there IS no requirement for proof of relationship with the I-129F, and his post focuses only on the requirement that the couple have physically met within two years, and that they intend to marry. As you mentioned, there are other requirements as well, including that the petitioner be a US citizen, and both are free to marry, but his post didn't touch on those topics.

I agree with his point - a notarized signature is solid proof that a person was standing in front of that particular notary on that particular day, and that their identity has been verified. If two people have their signatures notarized by the same notary at the same time, then it's solid proof that they were together. Unless USCIS wants to assert that the notary stamp is a forgery, I don't see how they could dispute this evidence.

As far as the content of the document that bears the notarized signature, it's true that a notary stamp doesn't validate that content whatsoever. However, if the document contains the appropriate language, then the signature and notary stamp transform the document from a potential piece of fiction into a sworn affidavit. For example, if the signature is preceded by language like "I swear under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct, to the best of my knowledge", then the document constitutes a statement that the signatory can be held legally liable for.

Anyway, I don't think he was contending that the contents of a notarized document are necessarily any more valid than the contents of a document that isn't notarized. He is only saying that the notary stamp establishes, with little question, the identity of the person signing the document, and the time and place the document was signed. Having the letter's of intent notarized should nail both the meeting requirement and the intent to marry requirement. If this was all you submitted to satisfy both requirements, I don't see how USCIS could deny the petition for lack of evidence, though I don't know of anyone who's tried submitting a petition using only a notarized document as proof of meeting. Everyone I know who submitted notarized letters of intent (including myself) also submitted a lot of traditional evidence, as well.

[brightskte 18]

It's also pretty easy to find just some random notary to sign the documents. I know at least 15 in a five mile radius of me, and not all of them are the most honest people. Just because you got a notary to sign the documents does not mean that both people were there at the same time. If my best friend were a notary I'm sure she'd sign whatever I wanted her to.

[pushbrk 12,877]

I am intrigued about this issue and I am wondering if there is any way to get an "official" opinion from the USICS about the use of notarized documents. IF these prove conclusively that we met it is a lot easier than printing emails and taking photos, etc that can still be challenged as to their validity.

The closest thing I've seen to an official opinion is posts about RFE's for primary evidence of meeting and the posted records of petitions denied for lack of evidence of meeting.

In short, the standard is that you provide primary evidence such as passport stamps or boarding passes that indicate the couple was in the same country at the same time. Clearly that is not actual evidence of meeting but it is the minimum they will accept. If you can provide more, do so. Notarized letters are not required but will hurt nothing. Beware of appearing TOO desparate to meet the simplest of requirements, as they may begin thinking, "Me thinks the lady doth protest too much." etc.

Demonstrating the relationship is bona fide is a separate issue, mostly dealt with at the interview stage.

[Dakine 26]

Submit what you have, USCIS isn't that tough with the initial petition.

That will come at the embassy interview. Start saving ALL communication records and make more trips if you can.

If you go again. Load up with pictures.

[TJM 0]

I think you're getting ahead of yourself just a bit.

At the petition phase, all they're really trying to establish is that the couple have physically met within the past two years, and that both are free to marry. Those are the two main requirements for having an I 129f petition approved. (Aside from the petitioner being a USC.) The suggestions you've seen on the board for airline boarding passes/passport stamps, photos, divorce documents, letters of intent, etc. are to establish both of those facts.

Judgments about legitimate relationships are largely left to consular officers at the time of interview. Because as you've mentioned, it can be too easy to 'fake it' by documents alone.

BTW all notarized documents prove is that the person who signed the document is who they say they are. You can still fabricate information in those documents - a notary would have no way to distinguish that. So I don't think that's the greatest measuring stick either.

I don't agree that a notarized document can be faked. The contents of the document is not the point ... it doesn't matter what the document says. The point is that the document is signed by the petitioner and his fiancee and in order for a notary to acknowledge the document they must see proof of who the persons are ... including a photo ID. In the case of a foreign fiancee the requirement is that they show their countries identity document and/or passport ... both which contain the necessary photo ID.

If two people signed the document in front of a notary (that is the requirement ... the documents cannot be signed before presented to the notary) then they obviously have met. The document could be a blank piece of paper.

The document is then stamped and logged in so that the notary can be contacted to confirm the information. Any important financial document ... for instance ... must be notarized. It is the accepted standard way to prove the validity of the people involved in the transaction.

[Dakine 26]

I don't agree that a notarized document can be faked. The contents of the document is not the point ... it doesn't matter what the document says. The point is that the document is signed by the petitioner and his fiancee and in order for a notary to acknowledge the document they must see proof of who the persons are ... including a photo ID. In the case of a foreign fiancee the requirement is that they show their countries identity document and/or passport ... both which contain the necessary photo ID.

If two people signed the document in front of a notary (that is the requirement ... the documents cannot be signed before presented to the notary) then they obviously have met. The document could be a blank piece of paper.

The document is then stamped and logged in so that the notary can be contacted to confirm the information. Any important financial document ... for instance ... must be notarized. It is the accepted standard way to prove the validity of the people involved in the transaction.

People can pay someone and they will say anything you want them to. Get it notarized also. Relatives will do false statments also just to get a relative here.

Pictures hold more water.

Just do Everything you can.

More ammo the better.

[TracyTN 237]

I don't agree that a notarized document can be faked. The contents of the document is not the point ... it doesn't matter what the document says. The point is that the document is signed by the petitioner and his fiancee and in order for a notary to acknowledge the document they must see proof of who the persons are ... including a photo ID. In the case of a foreign fiancee the requirement is that they show their countries identity document and/or passport ... both which contain the necessary photo ID.

If two people signed the document in front of a notary (that is the requirement ... the documents cannot be signed before presented to the notary) then they obviously have met. The document could be a blank piece of paper.

The document is then stamped and logged in so that the notary can be contacted to confirm the information. Any important financial document ... for instance ... must be notarized. It is the accepted standard way to prove the validity of the people involved in the transaction.

You made my point twice. If all the notary is doing is confirming you are who you say you are, what does that have to do with making sure that the information in said document is also true and accurate?

[baron555 934]

The document is then stamped and logged in so that the notary can be contacted to confirm the information. Any important financial document ... for instance ... must be notarized. It is the accepted standard way to prove the validity of the people involved in the transaction.

But.... it is NOT as valid as passport stamps. The OP makes it out that this is all a couple needs to confirm a meeting. As stated before, try it and see how USCIS responds.

It is good evidence buy by itself is not the end-all.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

But.... it is NOT as valid as passport stamps. The OP makes it out that this is all a couple needs to confirm a meeting. As stated before, try it and see how USCIS responds.

It is good evidence buy by itself is not the end-all.

It might depend on where you get the document notarized. I had mine notarized at the US Citizens Services unit of the US Consulate in HCMC. I would guess that USCIS would give that notary stamp more weight than a stamp from the government of Vietnam in my passport, since the notary stamp came from a foreign service officer of the US government. If needed, the notary stamp could be verified, while the visa stamp probably could not.

In any case, I think it's a safe bet that USCIS isn't going to call the notary to verify whether they have a log entry for that particular document from that particular person on that particular day. I think they'll either accept it as legitimate or they won't. They don't necessarily even have to question the authenticity of the notary stamp in order to issue an RFE for further evidence. I would hope the OP is just thinking about using the notarized letters as a sort of 'clincher' for his other evidence, and not looking to test the waters for the absolute bare minimum of required evidence to get an approved petition. I think it would be fascinating to know if a petition could be approved with ONLY a notary stamp for evidence of meeting, but I wouldn't personally want to be the guinea pig to test that theory.

[TJM 0]

You made my point twice. If all the notary is doing is confirming you are who you say you are, what does that have to do with making sure that the information in said document is also true and accurate?

Wow ... I guess I didn't state my position clear enough. The ONLY thing the first step of the k1 process requires as far as a relationship is that the two parties have been together in the last two years. The contents of the notarized document have nothing to do with proving you have been together. It is the fact that the two parties have been in the same room ... standing in front of a notary TOGETHER ... and that an authorized person (the notary) is testifying that he has verified the identity of the two parties by checking their official ID's (with photo IDs .... e.g., passports, ). The notary does not read the document ... the notaries only responsibility is to assure that the two parties who are present together are who they say they are.

If a notary falsifies a signature they lose their job ... are fined ... and can go to prison.