Do you truly love your fiancé???

[eekee 182]

Most of these things depend on where you are. Things in Ivanovo are going to be very different from a major city. A lot of what shikarnov describes are less of an issue in St. Petersburg or Moscow or Kiev. And there are even some advantages: I'd rather send my kid to a Russian public school for primary school than an American one. Of course, I wouldn't want to live in Russia without knowing the language, but a lot of expats do just fine even without language skills.

[shikarnov 7]

Most of these things depend on where you are. Things in Ivanovo are going to be very different from a major city. A lot of what shikarnov describes are less of an issue in St. Petersburg or Moscow or Kiev. And there are even some advantages: I'd rather send my kid to a Russian public school for primary school than an American one. Of course, I wouldn't want to live in Russia without knowing the language, but a lot of expats do just fine even without language skills.

I'm not questioning the wisdom of your preference for Russian schooling, but I am curious about the reasoning... I didn't see too much of primary schools besides the exterior when we went with my wife's very-young sister to her first day of school...

Speaking of the first day of school, I dug up an entry from my old blog (which is no longer published), in case anybody is interested.

The First Day of School

"The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe."

People here like to celebrate. Everything is an event -- even the first day of school.

Outside of a local school (which facilitates all pre-college grades), The schkolniki all arrive with parents, grandparents, siblings, and friends. The children are dressed in their best clothes -- one child was wearing a tuxedo -- and carrying bouquets of flowers to present to their teachers.

Slowly, but surely, all the scholniki line up in an oval-shaped ellipse, with all the extras behind them (that is, to say, outside the ellipse). All the while, a disc jockey wearing a Greenbay Packers jacket was playing an eclectic mix of folk music, pop, and club music in the background.

Unlike in the United States, there weren't any weepy parents. No terrified children clutching Mommy's skirt begging her not to leave. Instead the children were laughing, the parents were taking pictures, and everybody seemed to be having a good time. I think we'd do well to adopt a similar celebration on our schools' first day.

However, just like in the United States, educational institutions enjoy boring speeches by school administrators, dignitaries, etc (aka bureaucrats). Even though I couldn't understand most of the words, I could understand the tone, and recognized the same boredom in the audience as I've felt on countless occasions.

In total, the event lasted about 90 minutes, and then the kids went inside to celebrate some more. Of course, none of them would learn anything on today because first official classes will wait until Monday. "Day of Knowledge," indeed.

Edited February 17, 2010 by shikarnov

[Martyshk 137]

I'm not questioning the wisdom of your preference for Russian schooling, but I am curious about the reasoning... I didn't see too much of primary schools besides the exterior when we went with my wife's very-young sister to her first day of school...

Speaking of the first day of school, I dug up an entry from my old blog (which is no longer published), in case anybody is interested.

FSU schools give a better overall education, period. You will hardly find anyone in the FSU who can't point towards, I don't know, say Cuba on the map, while lots of people in Florida might be puzzled. I know I am over exaggerating, but I feel like FSU schooling is just better.

On the other hand, I think college in US gives a better education...

I only attended the 12th grade here in US, so I cannot compare. Back in Ukraine I did all 11 grades and graduated.

However, I went through college here, in US and comparing with other people's experience in FSU states - overall US college education is better.

Just my 5 kopeek.

[shikarnov 7]

FSU schools give a better overall education, period. You will hardly find anyone in the FSU who can't point towards, I don't know, say Cuba on the map, while lots of people in Florida might be puzzled. I know I am over exaggerating, but I feel like FSU schooling is just better.

When it comes to geography, you're probably not exaggerating. I used to teach web design to inner-city kids, and decided to break with the curriculum to talk about Russia once I decided that I'd be going there. Not one student in the class could locate Russia (although after a few moments of reading the map, they found it)...

But, then again, I don't know that I'd even consider geography a relevant topic. It's great trivia to know where, I don't know, Uruguay is located, but it's really pretty useless information. I'd be more concerned with graduates' reading and writing proficiency, and prowess with advanced mathematics and sciences -- in other words, their ability to listen, understand, analyze, solve, and communicate -- rather than how well they recite memorized facts.

On the other hand, I think college in US gives a better education...

I don't know.. What I saw of Russian universities was the RSL (Russian as a Second Language -- my term, not official) program, and what I saw second hand through my wife and her friends. So I'll have to go with your opinion here.

I only attended the 12th grade here in US, so I cannot compare. Back in Ukraine I did all 11 grades and graduated.

However, I went through college here, in US and comparing with other people's experience in FSU states - overall US college education is better.

Just my 5 kopeek.

Indeed.

Edited February 17, 2010 by shikarnov

[eekee 182]

I'm not questioning the wisdom of your preference for Russian schooling, but I am curious about the reasoning... I didn't see too much of primary schools besides the exterior when we went with my wife's very-young sister to her first day of school...

I've worked with kids going to school in the FSU, and I know kids currently going to public school in the US (I went to prep school all my life, so I have no firsthand comparison), and the kids learn better and learn more in the FSU. If you're lucky enough to live in a really top school district, or your parents can send you to an excellent private school like mine did, then the US all the way. But in general, the things I heard about the quality of the American schools and the teachers I found shocking. Also, I find American children to be overmedicated, overstimulated, and overprotected. And ask around the RUB forum and see how stepchildren were skipped ahead in school.

But like Март said, I think higher education in the US is far superior, if only in terms of the attitudes of the students. There are many great scholars and professors, but many students cheat and bribe their way through. In Russia you can do no work at all and simply pay to pass exams. It's a very corrupt system that needs a big overhaul.

[eekee 182]

An RSL program (I've also had a fair amount of experience at Russian universities) isn't going to be a good representative of the Russian higher education experience because you're with all foreigners. The problem isn't the instruction. It's the students and the acceptance of cheating/bribes.

[Dave-n-Oksana 49]

[quote name='Март

I only attended the 12th grade here in US, so I cannot compare. Back in Ukraine I did all 11 grades and graduated.

However, I went through college here, in US and comparing with other people's experience in FSU states - overall US college education is better.

Just my 5 kopeek.

My step-daughter would agree. At first she was confused about the concept that she can now take any college course that catches her interest and not just what she needs to earn her degree. I still remember the smile on her face when I told her she could take any class that she wanted. Though she is having some difficulties wrapping her mind around the idea of semesters and quarters.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

When it comes to geography, you're probably not exaggerating. I used to teach web design to inner-city kids, and decided to break with the curriculum to talk about Russia once I decided that I'd be going there. Not one student in the class could locate Russia (although after a few moments of reading the map, they found it)...

But, then again, I don't know that I'd even consider geography a relevant topic. It's great trivia to know where, I don't know, Uruguay is located, but it's really pretty useless information. I'd be more concerned with graduates' reading and writing proficiency, and prowess with advanced mathematics and sciences -- in other words, their ability to listen, understand, analyze, solve, and communicate -- rather than how well they recite memorized facts.

I don't know.. What I saw of Russian universities was the RSL (Russian as a Second Language -- my term, not official) program, and what I saw second hand through my wife and her friends. So I'll have to go with your opinion here.

Indeed.

So you think Geography is pretty useless information? Your assertion above reminds me of the guy who told me that he spoke the the only important language in the world: English, after he complained about my accent because I speak different languages.

Do you know what is the most important cabinet member in the US government? Let me give you a hint: it has been occupied by women (who certainly know a lot about geography) during NINE of the last 13 years.

And regarding the original topic, for me there was no question about it. When I asked my current wife to marry me I was very clear about the condition, and that did not mean that I loved her less. If she wanted to have a family with me, it had to be here with me. Otherwise, she could find a Russian man and live a happy life in Russia.

[Martyshk 137]

[quote name='Март

I only attended the 12th grade here in US, so I cannot compare. Back in Ukraine I did all 11 grades and graduated.

However, I went through college here, in US and comparing with other people's experience in FSU states - overall US college education is better.

Just my 5 kopeek.

My step-daughter would agree. At first she was confused about the concept that she can now take any college course that catches her interest and not just what she needs to earn her degree. I still remember the smile on her face when I told her she could take any class that she wanted. Though she is having some difficulties wrapping her mind around the idea of semesters and quarters.

Try wrapping your mind around the ideas of trimesters lol. That's how my college was. Go to school all year round. But do internships for 6 months during years 2,3 and 4. And go to school for 6 months.

It was a crazy college. But then again. I graduated, all that matters.

[slim 1,525]

I thought trimesters were for angry women.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Most of these things depend on where you are. Things in Ivanovo are going to be very different from a major city. A lot of what shikarnov describes are less of an issue in St. Petersburg or Moscow or Kiev. And there are even some advantages: I'd rather send my kid to a Russian public school for primary school than an American one. Of course, I wouldn't want to live in Russia without knowing the language, but a lot of expats do just fine even without language skills.

I agree. Pasha, though having only a rudimentary grasp of English when he arrived, was moved up 2 grades within 3 months of arrival simply because there was nothing they could teach him. He finished 5th in his class, 2 grade levels ahead, in his first year here. The FSU public education (particularly in cities, I cannot comment on the villages) is far ahead of US public education. If we improve our English scores here, our kids will speak English as well as Russian kids in a few more years.

I WISH our country would give the priority to education that the Soviets did and still exists in a lot of their former Republics, certainly Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. I think we would have a lot less people on welfare if they had the educational opportunities and the priority placed on education I see in Ukraine. Yes, education is a celebration! Have you ever been there when the high schools are finishing for the year and all the students parade around the city in their pretty dresses, and the boys in white shirts and ties and colored sashes denoting their school and everyone congratulates them and wishes them well in college? Amazing. I did see this even in small villages. The people feel that the young people are their future, and the young people have a duty and honor to be educated. It is a young person's JOB to be a student and they are encouraged to do it well.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

FSU schools give a better overall education, period. You will hardly find anyone in the FSU who can't point towards, I don't know, say Cuba on the map, while lots of people in Florida might be puzzled. I know I am over exaggerating, but I feel like FSU schooling is just better.

On the other hand, I think college in US gives a better education...

I only attended the 12th grade here in US, so I cannot compare. Back in Ukraine I did all 11 grades and graduated.

However, I went through college here, in US and comparing with other people's experience in FSU states - overall US college education is better.

Just my 5 kopeek.

Alla has a masters she obtained in Ukraine, when it was still Ukraine SSR. She is in a masters program here. She is upset that she is taking nutritional classes and an Anthropology class to get her masters to teach English. They do not do that and did not, in the FSU. College education was more specialized. I can go through her transcripts from Ukraine and see she had little in the way of classes that were not geared toward her major...Russian and Russian Philology/Literature. She had no math or science classes in college. Most other not directly related to Russian and Russian literature were political in nature. Big surprise.

One can debate whether that is better or not. Our son is in college in Moscow now for Physics at one of the top universities in the FSU...Moscow Physical Technical Institute (by the way, the terms "college", "university" and "institute" have specific meanings in the FSU, Alla was embarrased to be attending a "college" here, though it is one of the top private colleges in the Northeast) Our son focuses nearly exclusively on science and math, there will be no geography lessons in his studies...he had those in high school. College here seems to offer a broader base of courses, though not necessarliy focused on one's chosen major.

[AKguy 1]

Anna gave me a "look" when I told her I had graduated from a College. There are definitely differences between them as far as they're concerned.

I think colleges and universities here might just make those other non-related classes mandatory to collect more tuition.

[Brad and Vika 129]

College here seems to offer a broader base of courses, though not necessarliy focused on one's chosen major.

A distinct difference in philosophy I think. The idea of a liberal arts education (I say idea - not reality), is to expose an adult student to a variety of subjects. Before any one goes sideways, liberal arts refers to the American style of structuring a curriculum this way, not the political bent of the classes The idea is sound on paper, but the student is burdened with exactly what Alla complains of, namely lots of knowledge that is totally irrelevant to her chosen specialty. Producing well-rounded adults is a great goal though, and our public K-12 programs do a rotten job of it.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

A distinct difference in philosophy I think. The idea of a liberal arts education (I say idea - not reality), is to expose an adult student to a variety of subjects. Before any one goes sideways, liberal arts refers to the American style of structuring a curriculum this way, not the political bent of the classes The idea is sound on paper, but the student is burdened with exactly what Alla complains of, namely lots of knowledge that is totally irrelevant to her chosen specialty. Producing well-rounded adults is a great goal though, and our public K-12 programs do a rotten job of it.

I will say, however...the facilities offered here are better than the public schools in Ukraine. Newer buildings, reliable heat, hot water nearly all the time...LOL Seriously, the facility itself that Pasha attended in Donetsk was rather poor and the children had to clean the school themselves after classes. They had no sports activities to speak of, though they had "recess" all the way through high school and physical education also, but mostly what we would call "calestenics" rather than sports.

Pasha was thrilled with his high school here as they have most totally COOL stuff in phys ed....rock climbing class on real mountains, kayaking in the lake (his school is right on Lake Champlain) weekly ski excursions, rope climbing course in the forest behind the school (he makes cell phone videos of this and sends it to his friend in Ukraine who are VERY jealous) but that is not an acedmic education, though I am glad he has the opportunity for this also. He also likes the school sports and goes to the football and basketball games. Alla doesn't think much of this as an education, but is happy he is enjoying it.

The US system seems to work in "phases" Algebra one year, trigonometry the next year, calculus the next year, where the FSU system had all three in each year in advancing levels of difficulty. Here there is NO 9th grade trigonometry, they have that in 11th grade, for example. Because of this difference, Pasha had Algebra, trigonometry, etc by the time he was in 8th grade and there was nothing they could teach him until the 10th grade level so they bumped him up 2 grades. The main difference seems to be this plan of teaching, FSU is a little bit of everything every year, where here we do one thing one year, next thing the next year, etc. The FSU got into specialized education early during the Soviet years, Alla had little math or science education after 5th grade because the Soviets decided she would be a Russian teacher, and she is still terrible at math and does not care for science. Seems like here we do not specialize until year 3 of a university education. Ukraine has stated they are now shifting to a more "Americanized" type of education which had Alla howling at the moon! But with the new elections, my guess is that will not come about.