Do you truly love your fiancé???

[Martyshk 137]

The old saying: "Variety is the spice of life."

Wasn't it more like: "The grass is greener over THERE"?

[sleepy in Seattle 3]

Will my fiance is from the States and I am from Canada, so if I were not allowed he would move here in a heart beat. The only reason for me having to move to the States is because of his daughters and his family there, other than that he would have gladly come here instead, both countries are great!

[Brad and Vika 129]

Will my fiance is from the States and I am from Canada, so if I were not allowed he would move here in a heart beat. The only reason for me having to move to the States is because of his daughters and his family there, other than that he would have gladly come here instead, both countries are great!

Easy to do as well. That is another reason we debate the issue so much on this forum. Problems of culture, language, cuisine, etc. are viewed in a variety of ways by RUB USCs, and it makes for interesting reading. Perhaps others here will disagree, but it seems to me that Canada is similar enough in most respects that the transition would be an easy one for a lifetime USC.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Easy to do as well. That is another reason we debate the issue so much on this forum. Problems of culture, language, cuisine, etc. are viewed in a variety of ways by RUB USCs, and it makes for interesting reading. Perhaps others here will disagree, but it seems to me that Canada is similar enough in most respects that the transition would be an easy one for a lifetime USC.

I agree. I lived in Montreal for a year, and live but a few minutes from there now. If there is any difference in basic lifestyle, it escapes me. Montreal has a better selection of bread and cheese, and it is real clean for a big city. My neighborhood in Montreal could well have been a suburb in Chicago or New York or the east side of Louisville. I speak French, but even without that most Quebecois speak English also, ALL Quebecois in service jobs do, and so many of the French words are similar enough to English that I have never heard of any English speaking person having a problem reading signage (except for the convoluted parking regulations...but that is a conspiracy to raise ticket revenue anyway) Everyone in this area considers Montreal their "home city" so to speak and I never recall anyone saying "Gee, if only they didn't speak French, I would go there more often"

Another thing you NEVER hear in Vermont..."If it weren't for that damn lake I could be in New York in 15 minutes".

The transition from Canada to the USA is relatively seamless compared to a transition from a country with a completely different culture. I am sure it was difficult for a number of reasons, for a Canadian to come here, just for the fact of leaving their home, but i assure you, there is far greater cultural difference between Alabama and Massachusetts than there is between Montreal (or any other Canadian city) and Chicago, or New York.

[KittyPollitt 284]

I actually am picking up and moving to Morocco during the K1 process, so my fiance can be with our daughter.. The cultural differences are immense, but I think because I've gone from being dirt poor to middle class, I don't take things for granted and I appreciate having even the smallest comforts. I've been cruising around RUB and have enjoyed hearing other people's experiences with the whole process.. I've been spending most of my time in MENA reading horror stories, so it's really nice to read about success at other embassies

Edited February 17, 2010 by squeaky580

[shikarnov 7]

I actually stayed in Russia for several years prior to my wife (then fiancee) coming to the US to stay with me... When I was there, I was young, in my mid-to-late 20s, and it was all a grand adventure. From studying in a university building that was crumbling, to being treated in medical centers that would be outright condemned in the United States, to marveling at the hazardous electrical work in every flat I had, and even shitting in Babushka's outhouse toilet on a -30 degree day -- it was all somewhat romantic to my younger self. It was like living on a frontier, exploring a strange, new world.

But I wouldn't want to live there permanently. I'd like my children to go to schools that are safe without any falling tiles, cracking walls and floors, and etc. I like medical centers that are well equipped and *clean*. I feel safe knowing that the electrical work in my house was done by a licensed professional, and that the work is guaranteed.

I don't know how other parts of Russia are, but folks in Ivanovo are pessimistic as Hell. They're void of ambition, desire, faith. They complain bitterly (and rightfully, if you ask me) about the state of their lives, but do little to improve themselves. Even moving to another city for a better job --an opportunity for a different life -- is considered as impossible as living on the moon. Instead they wait for some 3rd party (like План Путина) to work its magic on their lives, some how, some way, some day... Services are slow and unwieldy, and service providers bitter and unfriendly. Everything but the bare necessities is unduly expensive. I don't want my children to grow up in that kind of environment, learning that everything is impossible, bitterness is normal, life is given and never made. I want them to grow with a belief that anything is possible if they're willing to do everything necessary to achieve. I want them to grow in a world that values good service and strong ethics and volunteerism. I want them to be confident in themselves and optimistic about their future.

I've seen Russia break too many good people... I'm watching it break my brother-in-law right now. I love my wife dearly, but I don't know if I'd be willing to set down roots in her hometown. Maybe I picked up a little too much pragmatism while I was there last time

[Brad and Vika 129]

I actually stayed in Russia for several years prior to my wife (then fiancee) coming to the US to stay with me... When I was there, I was young, in my mid-to-late 20s, and it was all a grand adventure. From studying in a university building that was crumbling, to being treated in medical centers that would be outright condemned in the United States, to marveling at the hazardous electrical work in every flat I had, and even shitting in Babushka's outhouse toilet on a -30 degree day -- it was all somewhat romantic to my younger self. It was like living on a frontier, exploring a strange, new world.

But I wouldn't want to live there permanently. I'd like my children to go to schools that are safe without any falling tiles, cracking walls and floors, and etc. I like medical centers that are well equipped and *clean*. I feel safe knowing that the electrical work in my house was done by a licensed professional, and that the work is guaranteed.

I don't know how other parts of Russia are, but folks in Ivanovo are pessimistic as Hell. They're void of ambition, desire, faith. They complain bitterly (and rightfully, if you ask me) about the state of their lives, but do little to improve themselves. Even moving to another city for a better job --an opportunity for a different life -- is considered as impossible as living on the moon. Instead they wait for some 3rd party (like План Путина) to work its magic on their lives, some how, some way, some day... Services are slow and unwieldy, and service providers bitter and unfriendly. Everything but the bare necessities is unduly expensive. I don't want my children to grow up in that kind of environment, learning that everything is impossible, bitterness is normal, life is given and never made. I want them to grow with a belief that anything is possible if they're willing to do everything necessary to achieve. I want them to grow in a world that values good service and strong ethics and volunteerism. I want them to be confident in themselves and optimistic about their future.

I've seen Russia break too many good people... I'm watching it break my brother-in-law right now. I love my wife dearly, but I don't know if I'd be willing to set down roots in her hometown. Maybe I picked up a little too much pragmatism while I was there last time

Great post Most of us here are presuming that moving to Eastern Europe with a US sized income would solve many of those problems. Matbe not, and the attitude that our kids would learn growing up is something I never considered as I assumed it would come mostly from us. I will say that the parts of Ukraine I have visited seem to be much more upbeat than what you described. That could all change now though.

[slim 1,519]

If I were to move there it would be to either Khabarovsk or Vladivostok and both are modern cities with all the amenities. It wouldn't be like I'd be moving to the third world or anything and by all accounts, I'd probably be "moving up" compared to the little old apartment I live in now. Even if we moved to the little old apartment her mom stays in, we'd still be moving into what we're accustomed to.

As for the mentality changing, I don't know. I can see myself getting way more cutthroat and trying to hold onto money way more than I do now but as for changing my perception of how the world works and who is responsible for my well being, it would probably take a lot more than relocating to change that. I believe by very definition our wives/fiancees are go getters and most of us are as well. I truly think just about any of us would fare as well there as we do here not because of where we are - but who we are. Same is true for our SOs.

How the kids would grow up in all that? Kids are pretty good at taking what they want out of any situation but usually their number one example starts right at home.

[R and K 0]

by the way, has anyone found any way you can send $ to Belarus without using Western Union? Most places dont want to deal with Belarus.

Yes.

My fiancee is from Minsk and last summer I figured out the perfect solution for me.

Leave or send an ATM card linked to a separate account for her. I my case I transfer money into her account as needed and she can make a withdrawal in seconds in Rubles or US dollars. The conversion rates are good. So far I have had zero problems with my bank and she uses the card once a month at least.

Robert

[visaveteran 1]

The conversation about living in Russia versus the US is an old and tired one. The traffic is awful and roads very bad. The food costs through the roof. The language very difficult to learn. Jobs you can forget. Cost of living ridiculous for what you get. Cold weather extremely bad.

But despite all that, it's their front doors that freak me out me. Big, solid, iron doors with three locks besides the normal wood door. And I see people replacing the big iron door with BIGGER, THICKER IRON DOORS. To replace an iron door in a typical Russian building takes all day as they have to use jackhammers to break through the all concrete structure. I had to sit and listen to that awful noise for a full day as someone felt the need for a BIGGER IRON DOOR. Damn.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Great post Most of us here are presuming that moving to Eastern Europe with a US sized income would solve many of those problems. Matbe not, and the attitude that our kids would learn growing up is something I never considered as I assumed it would come mostly from us. I will say that the parts of Ukraine I have visited seem to be much more upbeat than what you described. That could all change now though.

Yes, a US level income makes a big difference. People in the FSU are less outwardly friendly than people in the USA, though they are very polite to guests and foreigners. Alla says Americans are as phony as $3 bills. "Hi!!!!!!! How are you today??? Just great! And you??????? Have a nice day!!!!!!!" She wants to vomit. No one cares how you are, really. No one gives a rat's patoot if you have a nice day, they get back in their car and will run you right off the road to get a parking space closer to the mall door so they don;t have to move their fat @ss by walking more than absolutely necessary and many, instead of being polite to foreigners, treat them like a trained monkey..a very attractive and cute trained monkey...but a monkey none the less.

Open the door for a Ukrainian entering a store, and you will barely get a grunt, but go to that guys house and his family will give you eveything they have to eat. Ask him "how are you today?" and he will damn well tell you and you better be preapred to listen...otherwise, why would you ask?

I have not found indifference in service like you have here, in Ukraine. Especially not in small businesses. Hey, that guy WANTS your 20 hryvnia to fix your shoes and will do a good job. Here, new shoes are cheaper than what someone will charge to put new heel tips on (much to Alla's dismay as Ukrainian women wear out those heel tips!)

But, anyway, I do not dispute that having the option to leave and the income of a USA based job, blunts a lot of what would be un-fun things. However, I enjoyed every minute of living there and enjoy the heck out of visiting there now.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The conversation about living in Russia versus the US is an old and tired one. The traffic is awful and roads very bad. The food costs through the roof. The language very difficult to learn. Jobs you can forget. Cost of living ridiculous for what you get. Cold weather extremely bad.

But despite all that, it's their front doors that freak me out me. Big, solid, iron doors with three locks besides the normal wood door. And I see people replacing the big iron door with BIGGER, THICKER IRON DOORS. To replace an iron door in a typical Russian building takes all day as they have to use jackhammers to break through the all concrete structure. I had to sit and listen to that awful noise for a full day as someone felt the need for a BIGGER IRON DOOR. Damn.

Varies with location, just like here. Roads are universally bad, one of the BIG differences Alla and even the kids noticed right off, that is true. But I rarely drove in Ukraine, didn't own a car and really couldn't care less. Traffic in Odessa and Donetsk could be bad, but was not always. Food was not more expensive than here, rather cheaper, but as a percent of local normal income, yes, it is higher. Agian, I was living on a US income and paid less for a weeks groceries in Odessa or Donetsk than I do here, and had mucxh less variety of food. I hope you like potatoes. Apratments in Odessa and Donetsk are quite reasonable, even cheap. Not so in Kiev and certainly not in Moscow, but in other areas I thought they were dirt cheap. You couldn't get my flat in Odessa for 10 times the price I paid if it were here. Likewise our flat in Donetsk. But again, where I look at the price and say "Hmmm, can I buy three? I'll write a check" I would not say that if I were making $300 per month. All is relative and it is hard for us to imagine that. I did not offer, and would not offer, to live in that kind of lifestyle and it was never an option we discussed as it was never a concern for us. In either country our standard of living would have been what it is now, or better.

[shikarnov 7]

Yes, a US level income makes a big difference. People in the FSU are less outwardly friendly than people in the USA, though they are very polite to guests and foreigners. Alla says Americans are as phony as $3 bills. "Hi!!!!!!! How are you today??? Just great! And you??????? Have a nice day!!!!!!!" She wants to vomit. No one cares how you are, really. No one gives a rat's patoot if you have a nice day, they get back in their car and will run you right off the road to get a parking space closer to the mall door so they don;t have to move their fat @ss by walking more than absolutely necessary and many, instead of being polite to foreigners, treat them like a trained monkey..a very attractive and cute trained monkey...but a monkey none the less.

lol

Open the door for a Ukrainian entering a store, and you will barely get a grunt, but go to that guys house and his family will give you eveything they have to eat. Ask him "how are you today?" and he will damn well tell you and you better be preapred to listen...otherwise, why would you ask?

You know, I heard this about Russia too -- from many sources -- before I first got on the plane. But every time I ever ask anybody, it's always the same answer: normal'no. Occasionally horosho. But never, not once, did I encounter anybody who elaborated on how they were doing in any more detail than that.

I have not found indifference in service like you have here, in Ukraine. Especially not in small businesses. Hey, that guy WANTS your 20 hryvnia to fix your shoes and will do a good job. Here, new shoes are cheaper than what someone will charge to put new heel tips on (much to Alla's dismay as Ukrainian women wear out those heel tips!)

I was thinking more specifically about the grocery stores... At the corner market in my town, the butcher knows us by name, chats with us, and is generally a jovial guy. Even at Walmart (which I hate), the cashiers don't present like automatons who would rather be doing anything but. Sure, they're probably not thrilled to be swiping bar codes all day, but they at least seem glad to have a job, and recognize that they wouldn't if it weren't for customers like me coming in. In each of the three major Ivanovo markets, service people act like the customers are obstructions. They see a loaded cart, and get a disgusted look like "Oh my f***ing God, I have to do something for the next 5 minutes? #######."

But, anyway, I do not dispute that having the option to leave and the income of a USA based job, blunts a lot of what would be un-fun things. However, I enjoyed every minute of living there and enjoy the heck out of visiting there now.

It blunted some things for me.... Certainly I lived better than any of my neighbors... But even so, one man's salary can't improve the infrastructure, finance the repair of buildings that went neglected for 80 years, improve emergency response times (a topic which you do not want to get me going on), cure apathy, and etc. You can be rich in Russia, but in the end, это Россия, nonetheless.

[shikarnov 7]

Apratments in Odessa and Donetsk are quite reasonable, even cheap. Not so in Kiev and certainly not in Moscow, but in other areas I thought they were dirt cheap. You couldn't get my flat in Odessa for 10 times the price I paid if it were here. Likewise our flat in Donetsk. But again, where I look at the price and say "Hmmm, can I buy three? I'll write a check" I would not say that if I were making $300 per month. All is relative and it is hard for us to imagine that. I did not offer, and would not offer, to live in that kind of lifestyle and it was never an option we discussed as it was never a concern for us. In either country our standard of living would have been what it is now, or better.

In Ivanovo, I went to look at an "American style" one bedroom apartment (that really wasn't very American except that everything was new and clean and looked to be professionally built without exposed wires or pipes). The owner rented out to tourists -- usually Americans, hence the style title -- for about 50USD per day. I loved that apartment, and tried to work out a deal with the owner for a long term rental. Unfortunately, he wouldn't go lower than 1200USD per month (a little less than double the price I paid for a nicer, three bedroom, apartment in Texas). I wouldn't have minded paying a little extra, but that was just too much for me.

[Martyshk 137]

Yes, a US level income makes a big difference. People in the FSU are less outwardly friendly than people in the USA, though they are very polite to guests and foreigners. Alla says Americans are as phony as $3 bills. "Hi!!!!!!! How are you today??? Just great! And you??????? Have a nice day!!!!!!!" She wants to vomit. No one cares how you are, really. No one gives a rat's patoot if you have a nice day, they get back in their car and will run you right off the road to get a parking space closer to the mall door so they don;t have to move their fat @ss by walking more than absolutely necessary and many, instead of being polite to foreigners, treat them like a trained monkey..a very attractive and cute trained monkey...but a monkey none the less.

Open the door for a Ukrainian entering a store, and you will barely get a grunt, but go to that guys house and his family will give you eveything they have to eat. Ask him "how are you today?" and he will damn well tell you and you better be preapred to listen...otherwise, why would you ask?

I have not found indifference in service like you have here, in Ukraine. Especially not in small businesses. Hey, that guy WANTS your 20 hryvnia to fix your shoes and will do a good job. Here, new shoes are cheaper than what someone will charge to put new heel tips on (much to Alla's dismay as Ukrainian women wear out those heel tips!)

But, anyway, I do not dispute that having the option to leave and the income of a USA based job, blunts a lot of what would be un-fun things. However, I enjoyed every minute of living there and enjoy the heck out of visiting there now.

I gotta say, Gary, for the first time, I agree with everything you said. Especially the bolded part..that's still driving me crazy.