Do you truly love your fiancé???

[visaveteran 1]

Don't worry, I'm going.

Keep a journal.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

A better question is why American men seem to marry both a wife and a country? Why are men so defensive about a country they know primarily through their wife? OK, marry the woman and move on. I'm bored and tired of hearing all the bull about the great Russia. Everyone talks about living there, yet not one person has done it on the forum. Even super Russo-centric eekee is a student living temporarily in Russia on Daddy's money. How about living off the Russian economy? Then lets here how great it is.

The truth as I see it is once an American man decides to marry a Russian, he somehow has to rethink the awfulness and oppression of Russian society, and revise it in his mind to be just a misunderstood, basically good country. Bull. Look at the sinking of the Russian nuclear sub Kursk. Putin delayeed rescue operations offered by Norway solely to not make Russia look weak and inept. So everyone died. This is Russia. This is how the ego and twisted morality of Russia works. Same same when Chernobyl popped. Russia delayed warnings so more died. Russia dumps atomic waste in the sea polluting sea life. They don't care. It's expedient. This is how the Russian society operates at all levels, Screw the other guy. Screw the environment.

Media people and political opponents are assassinated and there is no justice. Putin does business with our enemies, Iran and Venezuela...yet complains and threatens when we try to put defensive missiles in Poland and the Czech Republic. It's always the same nonsense with Russia. I'm tired of it. Now I hear men attempt to paint Russia as a great place to live. Just don't go into the military or grow old because you'll get nothing from Mother Russia. I guess the "Mother" part ends when you get wounded or get old. Half the products sold in Russian stores are fake. There are no standards. No consumer protection. No law suits.

So, all you hotshot Russia lovers...move there. Stop blowing smoke and do it. Oh, wait, you say maybe later on down the road. Right.

Well, I can't say much about Russia but about Ukraine I can. I moved there before I met Alla, so we will get that "bona fidee" out of the way and I know Ukraine more from living there and from independent study while there, than from Alla who really doesn't talk about it too much unless I ask, or only about silly stuff like which place has better fruit. Alla is nearly completely apolitical. Ukraine was a very interesting place to live, but we are here now, so obvioulsy I returned by choice.

We still maintain a home in Ukraine also, which we spend less time at than I would like to, but such is the case until I can retire completely. We make use of it enough to be much cheaper to keep the flat than rent apartments when visiting.

Our son still goes to college in Moscow. He is getting a great education at the top Russian Engineering school for a fraction of what it would cost here. His degree will be fully transferable as was Alla's. We pay cash for his tuition and room and board, in advance.

I actually found the lack of consumer protections, standards, and especially lawsuits, to be refreshing. I do not need the government or attorneys to tell me what is garbage.

So please do not point your "blowing smoke" comments in this direction.

[eekee 182]

Ah, it's always amusing to see your assumptions about my life, which are patently untrue.

"plenty of people"=my Russian friends. Not a generalization, just going by what they say to me. I have students who want to leave, but none of them are trying to go to America and those taking ESL obviously would be biased sample.

[SMR 368]

Keep a journal.

I already do, but I'll be sure to keep up the practice when I get there.

[visaveteran 1]

I actually found the lack of consumer protections, standards, and especially lawsuits, to be refreshing. I do not need the government or attorneys to tell me what is garbage.

So please do not point your "blowing smoke" comments in this direction.

Gary, I know you lived in the Ukraine and it sounds like you lived high on the hog with a high US salary and maybe you didn't have to pay taxes too. When posters on here talk about living in Russia, I judge they mean working off the Russian economy. That's quite different than your situation.

You seem to be enjoying the best of both worlds...living in the USA but vacationing in the Ukraine. That's quite different than actually moving to the Ukraine full time.

If you find it refreshing to get ripped-off, I'm sure you'll always be happy in the FSU. But I don't find it "refreshing" to buy "french wine" that came from Uzbekistan.

Edited April 9, 2010 by visaveteran

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Gary, I know you lived in the Ukraine and it sounds like you lived high on the hog with a high US salary and maybe you didn't have to pay taxes too. When posters on here talk about living in Russia, I judge they mean working off the Russian economy. That's quite different than your situation.

You seem to be enjoying the best of both worlds...living in the USA but vacationing in the Ukraine. That's quite different than actually moving to the Ukraine full time.

If you find it refreshing to get ripped-off, I'm sure you'll always be happy in the FSU. But I don't find it "refreshing" to buy "french wine" that came from Uzbekistan.

Buyer beware. I don't buy wine because I do not drink it, so wine from France and wine from Uzbekistan would probably be the same for me.

I did live full time in Ukraine, yes I had a US salary. Yes, I managed to live pretty high on the hog. And what? So do many Ukrainians and Russians. The other people in the building I lived in were Ukrainians (except for one Brit contractor like me) and I suppose they paid about the same for rent, and it was a big building, and it was full, and there was a lot of them in downtown Odessa. And it wasn't the most expensive apartment in Odessa, not by a long shot. Maybe you haven't chesked out the new homes, single family homes, and incredible condos being built in Ukrainian and Russian cities, those are being bought by Ukrainians and Russians, not by Americans.

While the percentage of rich/middle class/poor may not be distributed the same as in the USA, there is no shortage of people with lots of money. Moscow was the most expensive city in the world, it is now number 3, I think. There are more billionaires in Moscow than any other city in the world. And yes, I know that Moscow is not the same as the rest of Russia, neither is Kiev the same as the rest of Ukraine. Neither is the Hamptons anything like Appalachia. However to suggest that in order to be "sincere" we must be willing to live in some village in Siberia and milk reindeer and eat lichens is ridiculous.

If you are trying to qualify your slur, or disqualify my bona fidees because I didn't live in a Ukrainian slum and work 60 hours per week for $75, it is a poor attempt. I also do not live in a trailer park in Appalachia in the USA (I think those people have a "US salary" ) nor would I want to any more than I would want to live in a Ukrainian slum. Neither did Alla live in a poor area before I met her. We still own a flat in Ukraine, big, 3 room one block off the main boulevard in Donetsk, we live there part time, I do not consider it vacationing (on my vacation this year I will replace the ceramic tile in the bathroom and the vanity top) Our son goes to school there and if he doesn;t come to the USA on a short break, he goes to the falt in Donetsk. I am not sure where YOU draw the line between vacation and having a second home where you live part time, but such seems a definition that I should make for myself.

When I retire completely in a few years and Alla is a citizen we plan to live much more there and possibly other countriews where she can teach English and we can travel and experience other places also.

[Terry&Tigger 4]

Guys, some of you really sound as if there actually is heaven on Earth somewhere, you just can't reach an agreement as to where it is. There are survival tips for both FSU countries and the USA, there are personal preferences and political views, the question is, do you love each other enough to try to adjust to a totally different environment, to forget your way of thinking and everything you got used to. Stop comparing the uncomparable, start anew and just accept things the way they are in a given country. Are you brave enough for that? And, frankly, how long do you estimate your marriage would last without your comfortable 'safety airbag' of American income?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Guys, some of you really sound as if there actually is heaven on Earth somewhere, you just can't reach an agreement as to where it is. There are survival tips for both FSU countries and the USA, there are personal preferences and political views, the question is, do you love each other enough to try to adjust to a totally different environment, to forget your way of thinking and everything you got used to. Stop comparing the uncomparable, start anew and just accept things the way they are in a given country. Are you brave enough for that? And, frankly, how long do you estimate your marriage would last without your comfortable 'safety airbag' of American income?

One can change the parameters until it is no longer feasible. That is ridiculous. Ludicrous. Money problems are the number one cause of divorce among American couples, there IS NO "safety airbag" of American income...even in America. How long would most American marriages last between two Americans with no "American income".

Yes I am brave enough for that, I did it. I lived in Ukraine as Ukrainians do, shopped the same markets, rode the same busses and trolleys, worked a full time job in Ukraine, lived in an apartment in Ukraine full of Ukrainians (imagine that!), ate the food, and generally lived exactly like Ukrainians in the same neighborhood I lived in. Did I live like a poor Ukrainian farmer in a tiny village? NO!!! I don't do that here, wouldn't do it there and such a lifestyle is not acceptbale to me or my wife who did not live that way before she met me (you thought she was looking to degrade her lifestyle, perhaps?) Stop trying to question one's sincerity because I am not willing to live in poverty anywhere. Poverty sucks, I have seen it (there is none in the USA) and want nothing of it, you can have it! My success is my own fault, be it here or in Ukraine. Or Canada or UK (other places I also worked and lived)

The question was, initially, "Would you have go to Ukraine (or other country) and live with your fiancee/wife. My answer was YES. Furthermore, I have been there, done that, have future plans to do it again, own property there, and just tonight (after spending all day remodeling the kitchen of our new home we will move into Sunday)I bought our tickets for a long summer stay at our home in Donetsk. Yet some here just can't seem to get over that it can actually be done, has been done. will be done in the future. It is also our plan, once Alla receives her citizenship and I retire completely, to do most of our living outside the United States. Why on earth would I want to stay here and spend my retirement money on such high priced homes and taxes when I can live somewhere else for a fraction of the cost and come back anytime I want? Given a lower income, I would rather live where expenses and taxes are lower.

And I can tell you where MY heaven is, and really don't care where anyone else thinks it is.

[visaveteran 1]

Gary, call it what you what, spin it how you wish, you and your wife live well off Uncle Sam's left nut.

And the causes of divorce are:

Infidelity.

Poor communication

Change in priorities. This can be caused by having kids or due to ones job, big things.

Lack of commitment to the marriage.

Sexual problems.

Other reasons that come up frequently, but not as frequently are:

Addictions

Failed expectations of your spouse (believing one is a super hero or that he/she can fix or be everything to or for you)

Physical, emotional or sexual abuse.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Gary, call it what you what, spin it how you wish, you and your wife live well off Uncle Sam's left nut.

And the causes of divorce are:

Infidelity.

Poor communication

Change in priorities. This can be caused by having kids or due to ones job, big things.

Lack of commitment to the marriage.

Sexual problems.

Other reasons that come up frequently, but not as frequently are:

Addictions

Failed expectations of your spouse (believing one is a super hero or that he/she can fix or be everything to or for you)

Physical, emotional or sexual abuse.

Excuse me? I receive no money from the "Uncle Sam" and never have. I have never even held a government position and been paid for working by the government, let alone been paid for not working. We do not even have student loans for Alla's education, OR our son's education in Moscow, it is all paid cash in advance (except for her private grant from her private university). Other than plowing the roads of snow, I get little from the "government" and even take my own trash to the dump, another private organization.

Also, glad to hear that finances are not a cause of divorce as it makes it so much more easy for Americans to live in Ukraine with their spouse since they don't need "American income"...right? Sheeesh. At least get your BS straight.

First I am a pariah because I "didn't really live in Ukraine since I had an American income" then I am told income doesn't matter.

I have lived and done well in FOUR countries, only two of which had English as the native language (and since UK is one of those it is only a close semblance of English) Never collected a dime from Uncle Sam, I do not need the government to be sucessful and wish they would just leave me the heck alone, seems like they need me a lot more than I need them.

The question, again, was "Would you live in your spouses country?" (Which I contend has nothing to do with if you really love her) And I answered YES. I can be done, it has been done. If I can do it the only reason you would not be able to are your own limitations, fears, lack of confidence, lack of marketable skills, or general lack of a spine. All of which will have negative results on your success anywhere and generally tend to lead you into a career funded by Uncle Sam, which may be doing nothing or only pretending to do something. It tends to make people frustrated and envious of people that are truly free to live where they choose, not where they "have to" because of a job or government dependency.

So...get over it, go back to the trailer and eat your government cheese.

[SMR 368]

Excuse me? I receive no money from the "Uncle Sam" and never have. I have never even held a government position and been paid for working by the government, let alone been paid for not working. We do not even have student loans for Alla's education, OR our son's education in Moscow, it is all paid cash in advance (except for her private grant from her private university). Other than plowing the roads of snow, I get little from the "government" and even take my own trash to the dump, another private organization.

Also, glad to hear that finances are not a cause of divorce as it makes it so much more easy for Americans to live in Ukraine with their spouse since they don't need "American income"...right? Sheeesh. At least get your BS straight.

First I am a pariah because I "didn't really live in Ukraine since I had an American income" then I am told income doesn't matter.

I have lived and done well in FOUR countries, only two of which had English as the native language (and since UK is one of those it is only a close semblance of English) Never collected a dime from Uncle Sam, I do not need the government to be sucessful and wish they would just leave me the heck alone, seems like they need me a lot more than I need them.

The question, again, was "Would you live in your spouses country?" (Which I contend has nothing to do with if you really love her) And I answered YES. I can be done, it has been done. If I can do it the only reason you would not be able to are your own limitations, fears, lack of confidence, lack of marketable skills, or general lack of a spine. All of which will have negative results on your success anywhere and generally tend to lead you into a career funded by Uncle Sam, which may be doing nothing or only pretending to do something. It tends to make people frustrated and envious of people that are truly free to live where they choose, not where they "have to" because of a job or government dependency.

So...get over it, go back to the trailer and eat your government cheese.

A while ago, I realized that a distinction needs to be made between America and the US. America is an idea. It is freedom, ingenuity, and independence. The US is a government that tries to implement it with increasingly less success or even diligence.

I think most Americans have to admit they have benefited from America. The freedom and ingenuity of America are what make life here good and prosperous. But the US no longer has a corner on America, and increasingly has less and less a part of it. Have Gary and all of us benefited from America? Almost certainly. The US (Uncle Sam)? Probably not.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

A while ago, I realized that a distinction needs to be made between America and the US. America is an idea. It is freedom, ingenuity, and independence. The US is a government that tries to implement it with increasingly less success or even diligence.

I think most Americans have to admit they have benefited from America. The freedom and ingenuity of America are what make life here good and prosperous. But the US no longer has a corner on America, and increasingly has less and less a part of it. Have Gary and all of us benefited from America? Almost certainly. The US (Uncle Sam)? Probably not.

Good points. I have never had a problem with the distinction between government and country. And certainly not a distinction between government and freedom, independence and ingenuity. Government is the antithesis to all of those. YES, I and my family benefit from living in the USA right at this moment, so that is what we do. A few years ago I benefitted from living in Ukraine, so that is what I did. Before that I benefittred from iving in the UK and after Ukraine I lived in Quebec for a year. Now I live in the USA where I want to live because it is a great place, but not a good place to make a living which is why only half a million people live in this state. Our state has less population than Louisville KY because it takes a lot of ingenutiy to make a go of it here, but the rewards are great. My benefits are/were derived from work I did that private industry was willing to pay for because what I did was more valuable to them than what they paid me (What a concept!!!!)

Say what you will, but the other day as I left for a meeting at 10am (I hate to get up early and won't do it for work) I saw our son participating in his PE classes "mountain biking" program riding along the path at Mallets Bay with the mountains in the background and it could just as well have been a scene from the "Sound of Music" (the VonTrapps DID relocate to Vermont after escaping the Nazis and still live here!) THAT is what I worked for! That is why, for now, we live here. if and when it benefits me and my family to live elsewhere, we will move there.

[visaveteran 1]

Excuse me? I receive no money from the "Uncle Sam" and never have. I have never even held a government position and been paid for working by the government, let alone been paid for not working. We do not even have student loans for Alla's education, OR our son's education in Moscow, it is all paid cash in advance (except for her private grant from her private university). Other than plowing the roads of snow, I get little from the "government" and even take my own trash to the dump, another private organization.

Also, glad to hear that finances are not a cause of divorce as it makes it so much more easy for Americans to live in Ukraine with their spouse since they don't need "American income"...right? Sheeesh. At least get your BS straight.

First I am a pariah because I "didn't really live in Ukraine since I had an American income" then I am told income doesn't matter.

I have lived and done well in FOUR countries, only two of which had English as the native language (and since UK is one of those it is only a close semblance of English) Never collected a dime from Uncle Sam, I do not need the government to be sucessful and wish they would just leave me the heck alone, seems like they need me a lot more than I need them.

The question, again, was "Would you live in your spouses country?" (Which I contend has nothing to do with if you really love her) And I answered YES. I can be done, it has been done. If I can do it the only reason you would not be able to are your own limitations, fears, lack of confidence, lack of marketable skills, or general lack of a spine. All of which will have negative results on your success anywhere and generally tend to lead you into a career funded by Uncle Sam, which may be doing nothing or only pretending to do something. It tends to make people frustrated and envious of people that are truly free to live where they choose, not where they "have to" because of a job or government dependency.

So...get over it, go back to the trailer and eat your government cheese.

Everybody uses Uncle Sam...whether its driving down an interstate or enjoying a national park. And I'm sure you make sure you get all your tax deductions when you do your federal taxes. Nobody lives in the USA without the gifts of "Uncle Sam." Medicare and Social Security...and health care now are other examples. Your kids schools get government money as well. So, Mr. Independent, you're in line with the rest of us. And your wife lives in the USA from the courtesy and permission of your good Uncle Sam.

As for your comment about finances being the number one cause of divorce, you're wrong...again. Money isn't even in the top ten reasons. You just pulled it out of your azz. How about at least some fact checking.

I could survive in Zimbabwe but who would want to? I might say the same for the radioactive, polluted and over-priced Ukraine. I survived Vietnam, I can survive anywhere. I live in the best place on the planet...the USA. No need to step downwards.

[Brad and Vika 129]

As for your comment about finances being the number one cause of divorce, you're wrong...again. Money isn't even in the top ten reasons. You just pulled it out of your azz. How about at least some fact checking.

And ten seconds of google SAYS

Finance in top ten reasons for divorce

edubook.com top ten reasons for divorce - finance

Top ten reasons for divorce - money

Divorce top ten reasons - money

[mox 298]

You didn't use Wikipedia as a source Brad, so you are wrong.

Oh wait...is this Friday?

Never mind. Carry on, you're good.