Do you truly love your fiancé???

[Brad and Vika 129]

Almost all food tastes better in Russia. I can't even eat some kinds of fruits and vegetables in the US without getting stomach problems. So many chemicals and strange, large sizes with neon colors. If you go to a farmer's market, it's OK. Go to a regular supermarket and nothing has any taste and every ingredient list is written in a foreign language of additives. HFCS makes rats get fatter at something like 5 times the rate of pure cane sugar. Maybe you have less choice and variety, but what you do get tastes better in Russia.

When I used to travel to Belarus, I found it really funny that our bread has wrapping and preservatives in it to give it more shelf-life. Their bread doesn't, but stays fresh much longer.

As to this culture/language debate, I am LMAO!! I think that it is totally valid to suggest that the unrussified Ukrainians want their own language, etc. I also understand the russified easterners don't. Over my time on VJ, I have seen and participated in loads of discussions about stuff like this, and find that many of the native Eastern European posters get their back WAY up over anything they view as critical of their cultural identity (whatever it is).

There seems to be a different psychological slant about arguing, speaking with some authority, once you hit the culture nerve with an Easern European. Once you hit that target the argument becomes zero-sum. In other words - if I acknowledge you are right - then I/we lose face somehow, so I will defend even the most goofy situation (to the END I say). Many of us USCs on VJ are very comfortable criticizing our culture and traditions, and in fact it may be our national sport. Criticism of our leaders, politics, anything governmental, etc. and the freedom to do so is very American. Not so everywhere. So you get the "you can't understand because you aren't fill-in-the-blank-nationality", or the ever popular "you haven't done your research", that yields up so many citations.

What I find even more funny than the cross-cultural critique in this thread is the USCs who (primarily because of whom they married) really line up on one side or the other. While I find it odd that a native of Lvov or Vilnius who speaks perfect Russian might refuse to do so, I have a really hard time getting upset over it.

Thoughts?

[Martyshk 137]

While I find it odd that a native of Lvov or Vilnius who speaks perfect Russian might refuse to do so, I have a really hard time getting upset over it.

[SandT 0]

It's so depressing to see so many narrow-minded views in this forum.

I guess it really is extremely rare to find a quality of people who can appreciate the likes and differences between cultures.

The world truly has a long way to go still.

Considering the purpose of this site, I would have thought the situation to be different.

I only hope that many don't believe they "rescued" their partners from their former lives, or attempt to hold it over them somehow.

Most Russians I know are pragmatic, but still patriotic - they know the problems, now and in the past, and don't ignore them, but have pride in their country and themselves. Many still would choose to remain there, or might move out of necessity. There are also those worse off, that actively seek to leave, but while differences, pros and cons can often be discussed, I can guarantee very few would appreciate someone from a different country attacking theirs. It is their right to do so - they lived there; that "right" does not convey to others so easily, even a spouse.

[Martyshk 137]

I only hope that many don't believe they "rescued" their partners from their former lives, or attempt to hold it over them somehow.

Most Russians I know are pragmatic, but still patriotic - they know the problems, now and in the past, and don't ignore them, but have pride in their country and themselves. Many still would choose to remain there, or might move out of necessity. There are also those worse off, that actively seek to leave, but while differences, pros and cons can often be discussed, I can guarantee very few would appreciate someone from a different country attacking theirs. It is their right to do so - they lived there; that "right" does not convey to others so easily, even a spouse.

We may be a bit more touchy on the subject than others are, as Brad pointed out, but for me, when I go overseas and I hear America being bashed it's the same principle.

[mox 298]

Thoughts?

I agree that there is room in the discussion space to discuss the negative aspects of Eastern Europe, sure. I think what gets people so riled up, however, is how pejorative and sweeping the criticisms get. And quite frankly this is by design. The main "haters" have no real interest in discussion, but only (as you expertly noted) in the zero-sum game of raising hackles. I have my own thoughts on the problems facing Russia, and I would welcome meaningful discussion over ad hominem attacks any day. But as long as you've got a couple people whose sole goal is to disrupt any real conversation, the best you can hope for is guns and pie. Well, actually just pie.

[Brad and Vika 129]

We may be a bit more touchy on the subject than others are, as Brad pointed out, but for me, when I go overseas and I hear America being bashed it's the same principle.

My point exactly. Most of us are used to hearing a certain amount of America bashing, and sometimes engage in it ourselves. Also, because of what America represents, it is important to recognize that our country is a lightning rod for all sorts of critical commentary. We are also blamed for most of the world's troubles.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Brad and Vika

[Martyshk 137]

My point exactly. Most of us are used to hearing a certain amount of America bashing, and sometimes engage in it ourselves. Also, because of what America represents, it is important to recognize that our country is a lightning rod for all sorts of critical commentary. We are also blamed for most of the world's troubles.

America is not just a country. It's an experiment. An experiment in freedom and equal rights (I didn't say it works, I'm saying it's an experiment!)

I love this country. I can't say I love Ukraine. I grew up in Crimea, a place that was torn between two countries so we were sorta on our own. Even though it's a peninsula it was more like an island. I mean sh!t, for many years, if you go to mainland Ukraine by train there was a sign as you were leaving Crimea "Welcome to Ukraine"

[visaveteran 1]

When I used to travel to Belarus, I found it really funny that our bread has wrapping and preservatives in it to give it more shelf-life. Their bread doesn't, but stays fresh much longer.

As to this culture/language debate, I am LMAO!! I think that it is totally valid to suggest that the unrussified Ukrainians want their own language, etc. I also understand the russified easterners don't. Over my time on VJ, I have seen and participated in loads of discussions about stuff like this, and find that many of the native Eastern European posters get their back WAY up over anything they view as critical of their cultural identity (whatever it is).

There seems to be a different psychological slant about arguing, speaking with some authority, once you hit the culture nerve with an Easern European. Once you hit that target the argument becomes zero-sum. In other words - if I acknowledge you are right - then I/we lose face somehow, so I will defend even the most goofy situation (to the END I say). Many of us USCs on VJ are very comfortable criticizing our culture and traditions, and in fact it may be our national sport. Criticism of our leaders, politics, anything governmental, etc. and the freedom to do so is very American. Not so everywhere. So you get the "you can't understand because you aren't fill-in-the-blank-nationality", or the ever popular "you haven't done your research", that yields up so many citations.

What I find even more funny than the cross-cultural critique in this thread is the USCs who (primarily because of whom they married) really line up on one side or the other. While I find it odd that a native of Lvov or Vilnius who speaks perfect Russian might refuse to do so, I have a really hard time getting upset over it.

Thoughts?

When the USSR fell, it created a mess...language issues, heritage issues, anti-Russian sentiment, pro-Russian sentiment, cultural vacuums, infighting. It will take decades to have everything shake out. And with Russia showing an interest in retaking some areas back under its influence, the future of eastern Europe is hazy. Under the current US president, it seems we will stand back and watch as things unfold without our involvement.

Arguing that Russian food is better than US food is nonsense. We at least have food inspectors and organic standards and lots of choices in both food suppliers and local markets. One problem in Russia is fake merchandise. If you buy a "french wine" it may actually be from Azebaijan. Lots of Russian food is from China. We know how iffy China food is. Other foods are imported from former USSR satellite countries. So what IS Russian food?

One thing I well remember during the cold war was how the USA gave Russia tons of our wheat to prevent starvation in the USSR. Russia never could feed itself.

[SandT 0]

I would have to agree with the fatty beef. I'm not sure if it's the animal, or if it's just how they do the cuts though.

There's so many things I've had there which I like, it's hard to remember and name it all. They have really good sausages and cheeses you can't find here in the U.S., which is too bad. I hate fish in general though, so I can't comment on that.

I do find they just cannot make Americanized food. What I mean by that are things like pizza for example. For myself, I find if I try anything that isn't inherent to the the culture or nearby cultures, then I'll be sorely disappointed. If I abide by the previous rule, then I find everything is sooo good and like nothing you will find here in the U.S.

I think it's the cut. Even looking for some ham (yes, I know it's pork ) for an occasional sandwich involved ignoring the majority of what was available, and in some places, I just wouldn't buy it at all due to the amount of fat...it seemed like 50% or more on many pieces. Beef was easier to find leaner cuts, but 'leaner' is a relative word.

About Americanized food - the flour is different, for starters, I forget what exactly, so the dough comes out differently. Sauce is a matter of taste, really, as are the toppings. For pizza at least, we made it once and I just made the sauce from scratch, found a sausage that smelled like pepperoni and ground it up, and it came out reasonably OK. I adjusted to a margarite (sp) pizza there ('plain,' or sometimes cheese + olives, some spices) without too much trouble. I think in general we have more sugar or sweeteners in nearly everything, even down to the ingredients used to make a lot of 'American' meals, so often there are still noticeable differences.

Trying to find fahitas and hot sauce was an experience, but we did manage that at least once, as well - for American-ish and some other food, you may be better off simply making it yourself wit hthe closest you can find. We never did find any ricotta cheese, though.

[SandT 0]

We may be a bit more touchy on the subject than others are, as Brad pointed out, but for me, when I go overseas and I hear America being bashed it's the same principle.

I guess it's in how extreme the reaction is. For me, it's just mis-information in most cases, and I'll correct it if it's something I'm knowledgeable about, or sometimes file it away to look at later.

I've served in the military so understand about pride in country, but there is a difference between blind pride or hatred, or educated, as well as simple respect for a partner, friend, etc, and their feelings about their homeland. *shrug*

[Martyshk 137]

I've served in the military so understand about pride in country, but there is a difference between blind pride or hatred, or educated, as well as simple respect for a partner, friend, etc, and their feelings about their homeland. *shrug*

It's impossible to rip out a part of person's life just because they immigrated. They (me) grew up and spent many years in their homeland, as you say, so of course it comes with certain predispositions.

I respect people views as long as they are not just blindly making up facts (or quoting Wikipedia).

[Cixelsyd 1]

I think it's the cut. Even looking for some ham (yes, I know it's pork ) for an occasional sandwich involved ignoring the majority of what was available, and in some places, I just wouldn't buy it at all due to the amount of fat...it seemed like 50% or more on many pieces. Beef was easier to find leaner cuts, but 'leaner' is a relative word.

About Americanized food - the flour is different, for starters, I forget what exactly, so the dough comes out differently. Sauce is a matter of taste, really, as are the toppings. For pizza at least, we made it once and I just made the sauce from scratch, found a sausage that smelled like pepperoni and ground it up, and it came out reasonably OK. I adjusted to a margarite (sp) pizza there ('plain,' or sometimes cheese + olives, some spices) without too much trouble. I think in general we have more sugar or sweeteners in nearly everything, even down to the ingredients used to make a lot of 'American' meals, so often there are still noticeable differences.

Trying to find fahitas and hot sauce was an experience, but we did manage that at least once, as well - for American-ish and some other food, you may be better off simply making it yourself wit hthe closest you can find. We never did find any ricotta cheese, though.

I think for many reasons our American style food will always taste much different than there. Hell, I once went to a Subway there; got the exact same thing I normally get here and was like "what the hell is this?". Not that I make a practice of trying to find American things when I'm in a different country.

I can't believe you managed to find fajita's there. I got a really bad case of wanting some Mexican food when I was there last time and couldn't find anything close to it.

[mox 298]

there is a difference between blind pride or hatred, or educated, as well as simple respect for a partner, friend, etc, and their feelings about their homeland. *shrug*

THIS. Nicely said.

Setting aside his politics, Al Franken once (or several times, I don't know) said that he loves his country like an adult, not like a child. It's a great quote. A child loves uncritically, unthinkingly, and without question. An adult can love but still be critical, still ask questions. I feel the same way. I love my country, but I don't love it uncritically or unconditionally. I'll be the first to admit that when a foreigner (such as my wife) criticizes my country, my first reaction is to bristle a bit. But I've learned to step back and really think about what is being said, and if the criticism is warranted then I'll be the first to agree. It does, however, make it harder when the criticism is spiteful (which my wife, thankfully, is not guilty of). I don't think I'm alone in this view, which is why if we want real discussion about "what's wrong in the FSU," it's helpful to at least be respectful to those of us who call Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, or wherever, home.

[SMR 368]

Most fruits and vegetables come from outside Russia...often from China and Azebarjan. The cost of food has skyrocketed recently in Russia due to oil prices dropping and general Russian incompetence and greed. The good foods, such as they ae, are in Moscow or St. Petersburg. Try shopping in Siberia.

The worst thing about Russia is it does nothing for veterans and old people. My wife's mom gets $100 a month. Not enough to buy basic food for two weeks. She lives out of her garden. There are no VA Hospitals or programs for vets. You want to live in Russia...or praise it? Look closer.

Funny you should mention Siberia since that is what I was talking about. I lived two years in Siberia.

[SMR 368]

It's a mixed bag. I fully believe we need significantly fewer laws and less government laws in our normal lives. It would also be nice to see a government by "we, the people" sometime in the future, as well. I would say a number of citizens around the world can make similar claims, some with stronger arguments or more apparent disservices done to their citizens, some with less. So indeed, shades of grey.

Public transportation - I would say the quality depends on where. For Belarus, I can generally agree, although avoid the train bathrooms.

Food prices are relative - it's cheaper than in the US, but unless you're living on a fat salary, are most things truly inexpensive? Breads, fruits, meats and some others - I would say are better for you, even if they don't always look better by being super-bright red or orange, and don't last for a month. Very nice chocolates and pastries, and it is nice to get a pastry and latte or espresso for a dollar or so.

Haircuts? I assume you mean womens, right?

In terms of public transportation, I'm talking about really any major city in the former FSU. Relative backwaters in Siberia have transportation systems that rival any in the US for price, wait times, and efficiency. Marshrootki are really just amazing. Or if you want to compare big cities, the NYC subway is a meandering, confusing sewer with infrequent, expensive service compared to Moscow or St. Petersburg.

Your point about salaries is well-taken. But I still am blown away by the fact that bread in Russia is better for 1/10th of the price. And if you don't like black bread, there is white bread everywhere, too.

For haircuts, I was talking about barbers. For 200r., you can get a professional haircut complete with wash and straight-razoring of the neck. You won't find that in the USA for under $30, and that is probably an underestimate.